Progress with pfitz 18/55

[u/dongdong97]

Hi everyone, long time lurker and first time poster !

I’m currently on week 12 out of 18 for my first marathon on october 11th (montreal) and currently aiming for a sub4. (Male 29 68 kg).
I’ve done a couple HMs with my PB last year (HM - 1:56:46). My other PBs: 5km - 23:11 and 10km - 50:34.

Four months before the start of my training block, I averaged around 45-60 km/week. I was kinda confident that « time on feet » with pfitz was going to give me confidence on hitting a sub 4 (I know that a realistic time would be HM*2 + 15minutes = 4:15).

Since then, I’ve been following closely the pfitz program (with three 30km+ runs so far) and just finished the peak week of 88 km. I was out of town for the first two weeks and resumed the plan on week 3 (1st picture). I’ve been strength-training and nutrition feels fine (70-85g carbs/hr during long runs)

Problem is that I feel like my HR has not improved on my Long Runs (2nd picture: screenshot of my latest 34km run where I followed the exact itinerary/elevation of the race). My max HR recorded last year was 193)

My latest MP run (26 km with 19km at MP) did not go as planned due to the heat and humidity and had to take a lot of breaks (3rd pic). Whereas my last tempo/threshold (18km with 11km at 5:05-5:15/km) went well (4th pic).

- did you guys feel the same way with pfitz? I’ve read that it’s the motto of this program to make you run constantly on tired legs… I’ve been told that with this mileage, I should hit my goal but I’m really not that confident
- Should I slow down during my long runs or care less about my HR ? I’ve been running negative split to hit MPs on all my medium and long runs. I guess I’m getting insecure of not hitting the paces on race day if I don’t constantly train on tired legs.

Thanks a lot for reading (and sorry for my trauma dump) !!

[u/Bobandyandfries]

If you haven't hit the peak week yet and you're already fatigued, I would reduce the weekly mileage by cutting the distance on the recovery runs. If the only issue is confidence, then just trust the plan and keep on going.

As far as your HR goes, the Pfitz plans are tailored for people trying to race marathons. If you're goal is a sub-4 marathon, the plan is probably focusing on the wrong things and not providing sufficient recovery between sessions. In order to reduce your HR you need to be doing a lot of base work (longer runs at a slow pace). The Pfitz medium-long and long runs are all mostly suppose to be progression runs. When you start Pfitz you're already suppose to have a solid base and be aiming at improving your speed. So, if your goal is to lower your HR, you need to add in more recovery time and probably slow the pace down.

At the end of the day you simply need to listen to your body. If the plan feels like it's too much, theres no shame in swapping a recovery run for a rest day (or easy bike session). If you feel great, then keep on going. These plans are templates and are suppose to be modified, don't treat it as a rigid framework.

[u/dongdong97 → u/Bobandyandfries]

Thank you for the advice !
I finished my peak week and will try to add more recovery (or run slower during my medium/long runs)

[u/Bobandyandfries → u/dongdong97]

If your confidence needs a boost, chuck a 5k time trial (or register for a 5k race if one is available) on one of the prescribed days. The hardest part about marathon training is that you only get to race once every 18 weeks (so not many data points to track improvement)

[u/BakedChocolateOctopi → u/dongdong97]

You can adjust the PFitz to be more beginner friendly by just making the long runs a steady state run vs progression or having the MP portions 

[u/fack_mens]

It looks like you might be doing your regular long runs faster than he prescribes - usually it's supposed to be first half 20% slower than MP, then the 2nd half (or last 3rd if you're tired) at 10% slower than MP. Based on MP @5:41/km, your long runs should start a lot slower (around 6:49/km ish) and then speed up to 6:15/km. If you're feeling good you can turn the end into a progression kind of run.

Like the other commenter said, try your best not to pause during the MP sections as it's the best way to practice holding race pace for long stretches.

FWIW I'm doing the same program but a week behind you to line up with TWM, so I'm dreading this upcoming week lol. The 23k midweek MLR / 26k with 19k MP week was a grind as I think the fatigue was building up by then, so it's normal to be tired. Hang in there!

[u/dongdong97 → u/fack_mens]

Yeah… I feel like I should dial back during my medium-long runs !
I think it was my only run (26 km with 19 at MP) where I paused, as I’m trying to not make it a habit.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and wish you the best for the rest of your program too ! You got this !

[u/angel0lz]

I was at 1:52 HM shape (April) when I got 3:50 for my first full (October) in the same year.

Take that as you will, but that 3:50 time was an all out effort race for me. HM was in Montreal, the full was in Toronto.

I used runna. For the marathon, the long runs with marathon paces are crucial. You can run by RPE if it’s too hot, and try not to pause during long runs with paces as running on fatigued legs are crucial on race day especially 30km+ onwards.

I can still vividly remember my race, I was already panting at 33km (which was a bad sign). Pacer looked at me and gave me encouragement. I was just trying to hold on to him and managed to keep up. This is where the long runs with paces helps you.

Try not to base everything on HR, you should have a feeling already if you’re running at your marathon pace, hm pace or close to threshold (which you should definitely avoid).

[u/dongdong97 → u/angel0lz]

Thank you for the insight! I really appreciate it.

[u/pohefiwosiroz222]

i found the same thing during the peak weeks of that plan in my first marathon block. the legs feel heavy, the HR sits higher than you would like, and you start to question everything. it's what pfitz does, though; youre banking that fatigue now so the taper sorts it out. your last tempo run looks solid fwiw (5:05-5:15 km pace is moving well in summer heat). slowing your long runs down a bit might not be a bad idea, particularly on the hilly montreal course. the pace on race day comes from the legs being fresh, not from proving it on a random sunday long run

[u/CarsnBeers]

Thanks for sharing. It’s wild that your PRs are all within 15 seconds of mine.

[u/eatfoodoften]

How are sleep and nutrition outside of runs?

As mentioned in another comment, you're finishing medium/long runs too fast. Save MP for the MP runs.

Trust the process. Follow the plan. With the proper taper, carb loading, and race day adrenaline, it'll all come together.

[u/hinault81]

I'm doing 18/63 pfitz, first time, marathon same day as yours. It's my first real plan, despite running for years.

I've found the plan working for me (never know until race day! lol). I was a little nervous to start, because I'm used to doing whatever I want in training, and this is looking at 100+ specific training runs. That's a commitment.
I had ramped up to about 85k/week average Dec - May, with no plan, where my only goal was volume, before doing this one. I mixed in speed and long runs, but just as I felt.

I find how I FEEL hit or miss. I did what I'm guessing was the same run as yours, 26k with 19 at MP, except I did 35k with 19MP. And I felt great. But the long run the week before I felt like crap. It was 32k or 34k, and by 28 I was done and felt I could barely run lol. But week before that was great.
Same with my speed work last week, really tough, week before, great. Obviously I want my training runs to feel good and productive, but I'm trying to just accept some will be crap and to just focus on completing them.

I've really brought more focus into my nutrition and sleep. Because I'm putting all this workload into my legs, I'm only going to get the benefit if I heal (plus don't want to get injured), so my food (volume and quantity) has gone up.

But, I found the same thing on my no-plan season earlier this year (culminating in a May HM). I was tired a lot, legs felt heavy, and I remember distinctly, like 3-4 weeks before the half, I did an 18k ish run with 5k at HM pace, 1 min rest, and another 5k at HM pace. I could barely hold 15 seconds/km slower than hm pace (4.20 ish) and then gasping for breath after 5k, rest/repeat. And I was like, what is going on, I'm slower than I was 6 months ago, and how can I hold a faster pace than this for 21k!? I can't even hold this pace for 10k.
Well, decent taper, some race shoes, and adrenaline, and I was holding 4.05/km and it felt comfortable come race day. Plus hills were like they weren't even there.

[u/Agreeable-Web645]

Care less about HR, think a bit more about feel. Make sure you go slow on recovery runs, even the GA runs don't push the pace. Also when you do the threshold and vo2 runs, make sure you're doing easy running outside of the workout piece.

Also heat and humidity really do affect you - hopefully race day is great conditioons for you