No hate to this woman but as a WOC myself I think you genuinely have to be mentally unwell to connect the lyrics of Opalite to British colonialism. Imagine hearing "I was in a pretty dark place but everything feels lighter now" and thinking that somehow refers to race

i think there’s been a noticeable shift in how some fans engage with taylor over the last few years. between the constant scrutiny of her relationship with travis, hate campaigns when she doesn’t meet people’s expectations and demands that she speak on specific issues, it sometimes feels like parts of the fandom have become indistinguishable from the people who actively dislike her.

i wonder how much of this comes down to entitlement. taylor spent years cultivating an unusually personal relationship with her fans through social media interactions and secret sessions, and i think some people began to associate that access with having a say in her life. now that she’s older, more private and making decisions they can’t influence, they seem to interpret her independence as a personal betrayal.

obviously, fans are allowed to criticise her, disagree with her decisions and hold her accountable. being a fan doesn’t mean defending everything she does. but there’s a difference between criticism and treating every aspect of someone’s life as something you’re entitled to police.

sometimes i think people have become so attached to the version of taylor they’ve constructed in their heads that they struggle to accept her as a person who can change, make mistakes and live differently from what they expect. it seems that being a fan has stopped being about appreciating taylor as artist and more about punishing her for not being the person you want her to be.

I think Taylor could really benefit from taking a longer-than-she's-used-to break before she comes out with TS13, here are the reasons why:

From roughly Midnights to today, we've seen a sort of immediacy between Taylor's major public experiences that have inspired those albums, and the release of said albums. Of course one understands that Taylor doesn't just write about the public experiences we are aware of, and even when she does that, she also adds in a bit of her own narrative and her friends' experiences, so the relation between, say, a Joe Alwyn inspired song and her actual experiences with Joe Alwyn aren't necessarily as linear as one might think.

However, what that can result in is the fact that now there's a sort of "action-reaction" effect in between releases. TTPD was /mostly/ about her recent break-up with Matty Healy, amongst of course many other things, and now TLOASG has Travis Kelce as its primary muse, even if the album itself is not just about romance, of course.

I think it would be super beneficial for Taylor to take a break from the whirlwind that this last 3-album run has been, enjoy her newlywed life, collect some experiences of her own in private along with some inspiration from the people and the world around her, and come back after a longer time has passed than she and the fandom is used to between albums.

It would mean she would come back with a bunch of inspiration and themes in her pen and inkwell that we wouldn't know much about because she wouldn't have been in the public eye consistently. Of course she would still be in it because she's famous, but there's a difference between "a short period after a new release" Taylor and "hasn't released for a while and isn't really promoting anything" Taylor. This happens with every celebrity, tbf. Promo cycles are usually more public.

I'm not "tired of her", nor am I wishing she would go away and offer her spot to another artist who "deserves it because she's new". I don't even believe in that. I just think that, as someone who has liked all 3 releases (and they keep getting stronger for me upon relisten), imagine just how much more enjoyable they would be if there was a decent pause between them. Not even just for themes and lyrics, also for production and experimentation! Collaboration with new artists! Just all in all more breathing room.

What do you think?

A lot of the criticism for TTPD is that it is bloated with the 31 songs and is quite long. I was curious about which songs I would group together into smaller albums (dubbing them Tortured, Poets and Department to be lazy) and this is how I would list them:

'Tortured' (angry, sad):

1. So long london

2. But daddy...

3. Fresh out the slammer

4. Guilty as sin

5. Who's afraid...?

6. The smallest...

7. The black dog

8. Peter

9. The bolter

10. The manuscript

'Poets' (more folklore leaning):

1. Loml

2. Clara bow

3. The albatross

4. Chloe...

5. How did it end?

6. I hate it here

7. I look...

8. The prophecy

9. Cassandra

10. Robin

'Department' (pop leaning):

1. Fortnight

2. Ttpd

3. My boy...

4. Down bad

5. Florida

6. I can fix him

7. I can do it...

8. The alchemy

9. Imgonnagetyouback

10. So high school

11. Thank you aimee

I haven't thought about rearranging the tracks as I'm just going off vibes, sound, theme and to be honest how I listen to the tracks in groups depending on the mood.

Also this is just for fun, I just like making different playlists on spotify

Edit to say, the more I look at it the more I'd swap songs over

She's not really innovative or made any trending sounds but there's a reason someone like Paul McCartney appreicate her or appeared in TIME's Person of the year: re-recording's, the spotify/apple music thing, Swiftonomics, mainstreaming confessional lyricism, one of the things that make me respect her as an artist

I'm not 100% sure about this take tbh...the only thing I could think of about Taylor making a sound trendy is when she helped Jack Antonoff to rose in fame, which is one of the largest producers on early 2020s

Talk about whatever but follow the sub rules

What do you think about the song? Do you prefer the production or lyrics of Out Of The Woods? Do you think it was a good single choice? What do you think about the MV?

Talk about it in the comments below!

So I've been listening to Taylor Swift since the beginning, and have several of her old ones on CD. Now her old country songs were awesome. However overall I just think she's kind of a mediocre musician.

For reference during her rise to fame she was against some crazy vocalists and musicians like Lady Gaga, Pink, Alicia Keys, Green Day, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Usher, Adele, Luke Bryan and Kelly Clarkson just to name a few.

Obviously some of them have kind of stepped back from the limelight to pursue other ventures and dedicate themselves to starting families.

However musically I'd argue Taylor Swift was probably the weakest singer out of that early cohort.

What makes her music relatable is the themes, and swifties go crazy over the Easter eggs she drops (which NBC made light fun of ahead of the Emmys).

However she's still not a very good musician and her last 4 albums have generally speaking have had very little variation in style or quality. The TPD was the decline overall in her music, like I still like her album but it created this trend of highly over produced music which has totally lost her rock/country origin.

Its like she's chasing trends than focusing on her roots.

So…. I was listening to How did it end? and noticed the lyrics “ guess who we ran into at the shops walking in circles like she was lost” feels like a parallel to “chasing shadows in the grocery line” in cardigan. What is with Taylor referencing to stores? Also i never rally understood what that specific line meant in cardigan, it felt kind of random. Wondering if it means anything specific or if it’s about someone or something. I never believed cardigan was really about matty because it just never made sense to me lol. It clearly feels like a very teenager-esque fictional song to me, i just can’t picture it being about him. Maybe im looking too deep but this parallel made me question if there’s a connection between these lines.

I am a huge Taylor Swift Fan, even back in the days when I had to collect song books just to memorize every music and guitar chords that she releases in CD. So, before y'all attack and hate on me, just know that this stems from a neutral standpoint as one of the many who has witnessed her growth all over the years.

TLOASG would've been her greatest album IF ONLY she centered the core message of its era as a transition from life as a newcomer country singer from Nashville to a global huge selling pop singer, and on how she has learned through the challenges and become better because of those, thus the title 'The Life of a Showgirl.' Since despite of these heartbreaking traumas and things that she needed to pass through to get to where she is today, she put on her Showgirl mask on because the show must go on, which then gave her the success that she deserved after years of grinding in the music industry, making her more relatable than ever than just love songs and heartbroken songs because of her vulnerability and on how she weaponize it to craft her artistry because of her RESILIENCY. Not her focusing her attention to haters, broken friendships, outside opinions, exes who has long moved on, and her husband's manhood.

It could've been her most mature and groundbreaking era if she expanded the theme on her Anti-Hero. As Swifties who defended her to the core, it is the most rewarding thing ever to witness Taylor putting her lyrical autobiography on a transitional songs before her big 13th album that might have tackle her life as a married woman or something related to Travis and their future babies, making everything cohesive and narrative if we line it up to all of her eras that she has released so far because we're literally GROWING alongside TAYLOR SWIFT, and part of growing up is being wiser and realizing that everything happens for a reason leading us to where we are today.

It also should've dwell on Taylor finally realizing that she can become THAT girl, and inspire many to just keep pursuing their dreams despite of the hurdles because passion is something that not even a hater can break if it's strong enough and if you strongly believe in yourself. AND, those themes might have worked better in her despite doing talk-singing because it it almost like an autobiography that lets us in her more inner side because we're already tired of her talking and blaming other people in her life when it is HER who makes the final decisions in everything. Just saying.

Ok this is just starting to become very obvious. The amount of upvotes and the fact that 1) this is old news 2) not exclusive to Taylor 3) top comments are very disingenuous…

For me it’s just interesting to see this unfold and I have absolutely no doubt this is an orchestrated campaign.

If you are at all well versed in American law, we can easily see that Taylor's relationship with lautner was not illegal and does not fit the standard for being predatory. Developmentally, they were both in very similar stages at the time and were peers in Hollywood. Taylor was 19 when she dated 17 year old Lautner, not 29. People need to get serious

Talk about whatever but follow the sub rules

I have mix feelings about this which I will get into but here is what the monologue contained:

“Also, I haven’t been to the gym in so long I didn’t know women just dress like wh*res now? Look, I’m sorry, there’s no other way to describe [it]. Have you seen it? I’ve seen it. You’ve seen the shorts? They’re those neon, like, artificial vape-colored [shorts], and the wrinkles go around the cheeks and all combine at the butth*le. And don’t look! You’re not allowed to look. For real, don’t look, because they are filming. I’m in the background of ten TikToks right now.””
—

On one hand the Shane Gills monologue was misogynistic as fuck and if people are disappointed in Travis for liking it they are allowed to be disappointed. Travis should at the very least unlike the video if he didn’t already

However in the other hand, many celebrities including Lindsey Lohan, Cara Delevingne, and Miley Cyrus’s fiancé Maxx Morando liked it. The monologue was also 7 minutes long and from SNL.

What I think happened was that Travis Kelce liked the video without watching the full 7 minutes because it was a video from Saturday Night Live.

Also I know this is nuancingTaylorSwift not nuancingTravisKelce but Taylor is Travis’s wife and some people do think their views reflect the views of the others.

I do mostly agree with this but I do not think this is one of those cases since Travis most definitely accidentally liked this but I do know that a lot of Swifties are disappointed in Travis for this and I want to give them a safe space to express their feelings without having to venture to snark subs or subs that allow snarkers to comment. I also want to give Swifties who want to defend Travis a place to discuss with people who are giving constructive criticism and not snarkers with bad intentions.

I think we can all agree on one thing though: Shane Gills is an idiot.

Edit: getting way too many comments from people who did not read the post. Genuinely if you don’t care about this subject please just scroll. I literally gave Travis the benefit of the doubt so idk why I got flagged as a “snarker”

Her writing is at the level of excellence that a single mediocre line really really stands out.

And most of the time the line is not "bad" its just not at the level one would expect of her.

Personally I don't like the "I like em cloaked in Gucci and in Scandal" from Canceled. But that's not bad writing. Its just not to my taste because I don't like contemporary references.

Lets look at "all dressed up as wolves and we looked fire" from Eldest Daughter. Okay not her strongest writing imo but also VERY FAR from as awful as some other artists who are known for their songwriting.

Everytime she releases an album there's a "bad" line that goes viral and spawns thousands of conversations. No one else's writing gets scrutinized at that level.

People don't even comb through the lyrics of their faves the way they do with hers.

“At dinner you take my ring off my middle finger and put it on the one people put wedding rings on … and that’s the closest I’ve come to my heart exploding”

I remember hating this one at first listen because it sounds so clunky but I find it devastating now 😭

Like, the image of that??? It’s so intimate.

I also find it kinda strange how there’s 2,100 upvotes but less than 200 comments

https://www.instagram.com/reels/DectDn1yil8/

"Talking about what Travis Kelce likes on Instagram is fair game when his family’s brand is built on implied progressive values. If they’re going to profit off of expanding their brand to women by positioning themselves as the good guy girl dad golden retriever men, women get to scrutinize whether or not it’s real before we give more of our time and money." She's absolutely right and she should say it.

Note: This is a long post I spent quite a bit of time writing up (while I'm on post surgery bed rest and recovery), so if you don't have the attention span to read it that's fine. Feel free to ignore it or if you are able to, I'd greatly appreciate it if you can answer any of the questions I list towards the end of the post

---

I'm a huge music fan, but I wouldn't really consider myself a "pophead" exactly. I listen to pop music sometimes, but most of the artists that are the subject of frequent conversation I don't listen to the albums and discographies of in depth or attend live concerns and music tours for.

Instead, I am a huge hip-hop head (underground and mainstream, contemporary and classic). I am also really into R&B and alternative soul music, although obviously there's an intersection between these genres and pop music sometimes and there are some pop and alternative pop artists I am fond of (some of my favorite contemporary artists that intersect with the pop world include Pharrell Williams, Beyonce, PARTYNEXTDOOR and Tyler the Creator). I was born in the early 90s and I have what I would describe as an intermediate knowledge of contemporary 00s, 10s and 20s mainstream pop music.

I want to better understand more about Taylor Swift, her artistry, her influence in contemporary pop music culture. I haven't listened to much of her music. I've listed to a couple of her albums in completion a time or two (1989, The Tortured Poets Department and The Life of a Showgirl) along with several of her promotional singles. For additional context, I wouldn't consider myself a fan of Taylor Swift. Not like I have anything against her to be clear. She's obviously proven herself to be tremendously influential in music culture, very disciplined and hard working and has solidified herself as a popstar that has created many songs and albums over the years that have influenced and dominated the cultural zeitgeist.

I don't think her music is bad, I just think it's kind of safe and unmemorable in a lot of ways. Her music seems well produced, she has a fine voice (she sounds nice, but I personally wouldn't consider her to be a strong vocalist, but I would imagine there are plenty of people that respectfully disagree with me), but when I hear her songs, I don't really think of her music being innovative or cutting edge.

I find that to be interesting because often times some of the biggest moments in contemporary pop music are innovative, unique and unprecedented.

For example, when I first heard Katy Perry's "Dark Horse", I was quite mesmerized. Mega huge wholesome American pop star star is singing a song over this sick trap beat and then Juicy J (a household name among hip hop heads, but an unknown to many. An underground rap legend from Memphis, Tennessee who would be one of the last people I would expect to be collaborating with Katy Perry) comes on the track with fun clever swaggy verse that's surprisingly family friendly. I remember hearing that song and and enjoying that song but also thinking "wow, this is a pretty significant deviation from what I'd expect to hear on the Billboard top 20 tracks on the Hot 100" but in a fresh way.

Similarly, when I saw the Lady Gaga's music video for "Paparazzi", I remember thinking, there isn't anything else like this on MTV/VH1/BET, this is extremely different and out there, pushing boundaries. Another example would be how Kanye West chose to work with alternative producers like Arca during the Yeezus era, this was during the height of his creative successful mainstream prime when literally every music producer was begging to work with him or the extremely ambitious music video film for Runaway (and the entire My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy project).

Or I think about how Lil Wayne was a rapper from New Orleans with a gang affiliated persona that was wearing skinny jeans, Supras, Vans and dreadlocks putting out hits on the radio like A Milli that had no chorus, just bars alongside pop hip hop songs like "Loilipop" and hip hop ballads like "How To Love"

Beyonce is another artist that I think of as pushing boundaries in the pop music world. Being the first big female pop artist to very strongly embrace self empowerment themes in mainstream pop music as a woman, feminist aligned values in her lyrics, bringing sing rapping into the mainstream among female pop artists (something that's ubiquitous now, but before Destiny's Child wasn't something female artists were doing, particularly not from ones that didn't have ties to the hip hop world), or her amazingly adept visual elements to her music (dropping a surprise album on a Friday where every song has a music video), the projects like Lemonade film, Black Is King and Beychella which were unprecedented in terms of quality and depth for those types of projects, especially at that time. Even something as simple as the beat and production selection on a track as big as "Single Ladies" was extremely unusual compared to other pop music being released at the time.

However, when I think about Taylor Swift's music, I am kind of struggling to think of examples where she does that.

I find Taylor Swift to be so fascinating because she doesn't seem to follow the types of patterns I see in her artistry of other major wildly popular pop superstar juggernauts across various generations of time (i.e. Michael Jackson, Prince, Bruno Mars, The Weeknd, Brittney Spears, Rihanna, Madonna, Beyonce, Usher, Bad Bunny)

Listed below are series of questions I have as I want to learn more about Taylor Swift, her music, her artistry. I'm hoping that I get some perspective from some ardent fans of Taylor Swift but also from people that are more neutral fans but are familiar with her art just from being a passionate pop head.

Important Note: I want to emphasize, that I'm trying to come at this from a neutral perspective and someone who is a extremely passionate about music culture that wants to learn. My intention is not to raise these thoughts and questions with the purpose of antagonizing or blindly bolstering any particular fandoms.

1. What are some examples of the biggest creative risks or most innovative decisions in her music creation has Taylor Swift made in her career?
2. Who are contemporary mainstream successful music artists (probably people younger than 30) that would cite Taylor Swift as a primary artistic influence? What are examples of well regarded and/or highly popular contemporary pop songs or artists that clearly influenced by Taylor Swift's artistry?
3. What ways has Taylor Swift's music from the the 2000s and 2010s affected and influenced contemporary pop music from the past 10 years? Examples of specific songs, song lyrics or albums would be appreciated (I'm especially interested in very contemporary examples from the past 6-12 months).
4. What are some of Taylor Swift's most well regarded deep cuts that highlight some of her best work? What elements about those deep cuts fans and critics consider to be especially noteworthy? Specifically, I am curious about individual songs that were not selected to be singles or to have music videos created around?
5. In terms of her creative talent and artistry, what does she a reputation for excelling at the most?
6. In what positive ways is Taylor Swift and her music affecting contemporary pop music today? What about in ways that are more negative?
7. Throughout her career, what are some of Taylor Swift's best known examples of her thriving as a visual artist and performer (i.e. exhibiting uncanny talent during live performances, extremely iconic music videos)?
8. As a songwriter, what recurring subjects, themes and topics does she tend to explore in her song lyrics?
9. Who are examples of music artists that you would say Taylor Swift takes inspiration and influence from that are her peers (or younger) in terms of age (i.e. artists that are not older 40 years old)?
10. How do you expect Taylor Swift's music artistry to change/grow/evolve over the next five years (i.e. will she slow down or speed up, will she experiment with different genres or collaborators)?

Important Note: For these questions, I'm more interested in hearing about things related to her music in a vacuum and her music persona and less interested in hearing about examples related to her personal life or the intersectionality of business the pop music industry. I understand there is a para-social element to Taylor Swift's success and mass appeal (as is the case with nearly all contemporary pop stars in the modern era). That's an interesting subject, but less what I'm interested in learning more about (although I suppose it's worth mentioning if you don't believe her music is the primary cause of her unprecedented success and influence).

Thanks for reading!

I'm really looking forward to hearing and learning more about this community's knowledge and insight on Taylor Swift's music artistry and it's general relation and influence to contemporary pop music culture. If there are any other subreddits where you think these questions might be worth asking, please feel free to make a suggestion.

Talk about whatever but follow the sub rules

First ever post here… I just needed to get this out and maybe get insights! I’ve never been a huge TS fan and I’ve never been parasocial with any celebrity. I appreciate work, art, and their story.

To get this started I just want someone’s more nuanced insight into her work! I am in love with her Evermore and Folklore albums. The lyrics, the sound, her overall emotional depth in the albums is crazy. I don’t hear these albums being talked about much, unless I just see the mainstream. With this new album out it’s almost like a different person entirely? I see the Evermore/Folklore TS almost as an entirely different person. I get the whole era idea, the marketing strategy, and the overall understanding that we all change as people as we go through life. That’s what I want answers to from someone more knowledgable than me! Why are these albums so different? Including the relationship dynamics, emotional state, but also writing? Her music in these eras is amazing. Idk might be crazy. Please agree and suffer with me.

It’s so interesting to me. Those two eras have me in a chokehold and admittedly hold so much value to me. It would be awesome to just have some context and historic circumstances! ❤️

Edit: please include your fav song and why! Mines Cowboy like me 😮‍💨

EDIT EDIT: This is no way meant to be a dig at her or her abilities. I do like songs from all her albums. I understand people change and develop - as they should in life! I just was fascinated with her album and music development. Again, I don’t have much social knowledge with her and her history. I just was requesting knowledge from people who know more than me because I’m curious! Her new albums have good qualities too. I’m just in love with Folklore and Evermore and wanted your insight into its contents and historic creation (if willing). All love!