"Good guys" committing perfidy (fake surrender) and it's treated as a clever heroic ploy instead of a war crime or something morally dubious

[u/AporiaParadox]

1. Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Anakin pretends to surrender to the enemy multiple times during the Clone Wars. And no, it's not used to indicate that Anakin is falling to the Dark Side, other characters like Obi-Wan do it too.
2. The Iliad. The Trojan Horse was a real dick move, a fake surrender compounded by a fake peace offering, followed by a massacre. I get that it was a different time, but still, most modern adaptations just treat it as a cool thing. One thing I'll give Nolan's The Odyssey credit for is that Odysseus recognizes that what his "clever plot" was wrong.

Perfidy is a serious war crime, because morality aside, in exchange for one victory, you're dooming all of your allies who might want to legitimately surrender in the future because now the enemy is just going to execute them, not to mention that now the enemy won't surrender to you and will just fight harder.

[u/the_Real_Romak]

Also morality was different at the time. The concept of warcrimes did not exist, you either won or you lost, and losing often meant death.

[u/NwgrdrXI → u/the_Real_Romak]

Nah, irrc, even then, Odyssyes was always considered a shifty guy.

Brutality was a valor people revered, but not deceiving.

People were proud to declare themselves descendants of Achilles, Ajax and even Hector. Heracles, brutal as he was, was basically all the greek cities's favorite "super hero", everyone said they came from him (and thus Zeus).

Ody was the guy you are happy was on your side, you didn't go around saying he was your great grandfather. People wouldn't trust you if you were proud of that.

[u/iwantdatpuss → u/NwgrdrXI]

Iirc Odysseus is also the type of guy to avoid draft by pretending to be mad. He was a smart man, but he's not really "good" in our modern sense. 

[u/Ok_Work1615 → u/iwantdatpuss]

i mean, depending on the country you are fighting for and the reasons behind the war, dodging a draft can be a moral thing.

thats my opinion tho

[u/Baronvondorf21 → u/Ok_Work1615]

He is the reason that the draft was in place. The draft was literally his idea.

[u/Ok_Work1615 → u/Baronvondorf21]

i didnt mean suitor draft, i meant irl war draft, i think the commentor above meant that too, or did i misunderstand?

[u/NwgrdrXI → u/Ok_Work1615]

Tbf, if you are part of the reason the war is happening, dodging the draft is a bit imoral, yeah.

[u/Accelerator231 → u/Ok_Work1615]

That's probably the opinion of the ancient greeks too.

He made the plan. He swore the oath. He's going to join the war, whether he likes it or not

[u/Cyan_Tile → u/Ok_Work1615]

I doubt the reasons Odysseus would dodge a draft would have any correlation to why his country would fight a war...

[u/Accelerator231 → u/iwantdatpuss]

Wasn't he the guy that set it up to begin with?

"Congratulations on making that plan. Now time to follow it."

[u/iwantdatpuss → u/Accelerator231]

Yep, dude is the one to propose the idea that all of Helen's suitors defend her marriage regardless of whoever gets chosen. And all of them made an oath too, so like everyone is basically compelled to join the war, including Odysseus. 

[u/justareaderofnote → u/iwantdatpuss]

I know he was the one who set up the suitor draft thing but that was pretty understandable

[u/BrocialCommentary → u/NwgrdrXI]

So Odysseus was cunning but brutal. Heracles was brutal but cunning.

[u/NwgrdrXI → u/BrocialCommentary]

Yeah, and surprisingly, for the ancient greeks, there was a big difference.

[u/MilkJiggle → u/BrocialCommentary]

By zog

[u/Fly-the-Light → u/NwgrdrXI]

Ody was shifty and dishonourable, but we'd call him a war criminal whilst they'd call him a coward (who was smart enough that people tolerated his cowardice enough for him to get by).

[u/1XRobot → u/NwgrdrXI]

Yeah, super ashamed. Look at the shameful stamp they put on this shameful coin: https://en.numista.com/435652 People are always stamping coins with the faces of people they weren't proud of.

[u/NwgrdrXI → u/1XRobot]

Again, the guy that you are happy is on your team. He is important and impressive, you like him, just don't say he is your favorite.

[u/1XRobot → u/NwgrdrXI]

Look at the coin. Who goes on a coin? Gods, heroes, kings. The best of the best. Those who must not be forgotten.

[u/ElOsoPeresozo → u/NwgrdrXI]

The Chris Paul of the Bronze Age.

He’s only fun when he’s on your team.

[u/Individual_Piccolo43 → u/the_Real_Romak]

I believe in at least the middle ages (and thus I'd expect it in ancient warfare too), the longer the siege, the more brutal the sack of the city

[u/the_Real_Romak → u/Individual_Piccolo43]

pretty much yeah. sieges were boooooooring for the attacker since all they did was sit around for potentially months jacking off and eating through their provisions, waiting for the defenders to just die already.

and when the sack finally happens, they got a lot of pent up frustration to let loose.

[u/Individual_Piccolo43 → u/the_Real_Romak]

Also, disease, unsuccessful assaults and enemy sallies killing your friends

[u/thissexypoptart → u/the_Real_Romak]

The concept of war crimes (even if not explicitly called that) has been around since the dawn of humanity. The definitions change, as morality does across cultures and time, but it's not like war crimes as a notion were invented with the Geneva Conventions.

There are ancient sources talking about how shitty perfidy is, and why it's shitty.

[u/xolotltolox → u/the_Real_Romak]

Also,mock surrender is a Warcrime not becasue it is amoral or evil, but to protect genuine surrenders since they can never be trusted to be genuine surrenders

[u/yourstruly912 → u/the_Real_Romak]

Still, respecting oaths was a huge deal. And in the Illiad they have truces to retrive corpses from the battlefield. Profanating corpses was also quite bad, so Achilles' treatment of Hector's corpses would be considered quite egregioud

Speaking more generally, massacre and/or ensalvement were for populations that resisted and had to be taken by storm. If they surrendered it would be bad form

[u/Akangka → u/the_Real_Romak]

This is the same culture that considered treating visitors badly (even towards enemies) to be a major sin. I don't believe that this culture has no concept of warcrimes.