"Good guys" committing perfidy (fake surrender) and it's treated as a clever heroic ploy instead of a war crime or something morally dubious

[u/AporiaParadox]

1. Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Anakin pretends to surrender to the enemy multiple times during the Clone Wars. And no, it's not used to indicate that Anakin is falling to the Dark Side, other characters like Obi-Wan do it too.
2. The Iliad. The Trojan Horse was a real dick move, a fake surrender compounded by a fake peace offering, followed by a massacre. I get that it was a different time, but still, most modern adaptations just treat it as a cool thing. One thing I'll give Nolan's The Odyssey credit for is that Odysseus recognizes that what his "clever plot" was wrong.

Perfidy is a serious war crime, because morality aside, in exchange for one victory, you're dooming all of your allies who might want to legitimately surrender in the future because now the enemy is just going to execute them, not to mention that now the enemy won't surrender to you and will just fight harder.

[u/cat_silhouette]

When they sliced off Zendaya’s head in Troy they cut to the statue of Athena’s statue’s head being cut off and falling to the ground.

Which could be metaphorical but Athena is also the goddess of strategic warfare and Odysseus exemplifies everything she stands for. So it would make sense for her to favor him.

But the Gods actually exist and they didn’t keep saying that you don’t know who’s a God for nothing.

In the script the woman they kill is also described as having Athena’s famous grey eyes of wisdom.

I still think it’s ambiguous but Nolan is as subtle as a brick to the face in his movies so it was probably her.

(Loved the movie btw)

[u/AbueloOdin → u/cat_silhouette]

They referenced the Gods travel incognito and you should treat people respectfully just in case they are gods MULTIPLE TIMES.

Like straight up: it was intended to be Athena. They cut off Athena's head. The whole trip was a punishment for the Greeks being assholes led by Odysseus's plan.

[u/schrodingers_bra → u/AbueloOdin]

Yeah, but in the original text, Athena is the one who gives them instructions for building the horse in the first place.

It's a crazy reversal from the original. The gods were taking part in the Trojan war as much as the humans - hence the whole Judgment of Paris in the first place.

Athena and Hera were pissed because Aphrodite was judged most beautiful, so they were on the side of the Greeks, and Aphrodite was on the side of Troy.

[u/Lawlcopt0r → u/schrodingers_bra]

I'm pretty sure Athena still ends up being pissed off that the greeks desecrated her temples. The gods are very fickle in those stories, if anything it's unusual that Athena always seems to stay on Odysseus' side no matter what

[u/schrodingers_bra → u/Lawlcopt0r]

Well yes, specifically she's pissed at Ajax the Lesser for the desecration, but Odysseus urges the Greeks to stone Ajax to death as punishment.

The Greeks end up not punishing him, but that's why Athena stays specifically on Odysseus's side while being pissed at the rest of the Greeks.

[u/ZealousidealComb7891 → u/Lawlcopt0r]

She protects Diomedes more, helping him not only hurt 2 gods, but not get any punishment from them either.

Homegirl is just a real homie for the preferred peeps, that's all.

[u/Temeraire64 → u/ZealousidealComb7891]

Doesn't Diomedes suffer when he gets back home?

[u/Thejollyfrenchman → u/Temeraire64]

Not because of Athena.

The brother of Palamedes, a Greek commander that Diomedes murdered, spread a rumour to Aegialia, Diomedes' wife, that he was coming home with a mistress who would replace her.

Aphrodite, who had been on the Trojan side, saw the opportunity to get some payback by enhancing the beauty of the men around Aegialia and making them lust after her, after which she took multiple lovers. When Diomedes returned, the gates of Argos were closed to him.

His fate overall wasn't all that bad, though. Diomedes went to Italy and got land and a new wife in return for becoming a general to a local king, and founded several major cities. In the Aeneid he's asked to go fight the Trojans again but refuses.

[u/ZealousidealComb7891 → u/Thejollyfrenchman]

Aphrodite got her hand hurt by him, it wasn't just her being on the Trojan side.

But i guess even her isn't willing to piss of Athena.

[u/ZealousidealComb7891 → u/Temeraire64]

Compared to what he did ? As i recall Ares said he might have even died... and only Aphrodite does anything to him, and compared to the other guy who's wife took someone else, he gets off with a minor inconvenience.

[u/xesaie → u/schrodingers_bra]

Isn’t that one of the things that pussed the classicists off?

[u/Matitya → u/xesaie]

Yes

[u/AbueloOdin → u/schrodingers_bra]

Yes. But this is a different adaptation.

[u/AbueloOdin → u/[deleted]]

Shit. Homer didn't even come up with it himself. We're doing fanfic off someone else's fanfic.

[u/LevelStudent → u/AbueloOdin]

I disagree with this take on the movie. There's nothing to suggest that was truly Athena, and Odysseus is the one that strongly believes that Gods take human disguise, which makes him believe the executed woman could have been Athena, and then punish himself with guilt.

No one else ever sees her and she barely speaks except to question Odysseus the way a guilty man would question themselves. They don't get explicitly cursed by Athena, Odysseus decides on a different path due to his guilt and shame over having broken Zeus' Law and believing killed his wife's favorite God.

Just my take of course, so everyone is welcome to disagree.

[u/AbueloOdin → u/LevelStudent]

They cut the head of the Athena statue at the same time as cutting off her head.

If you want to say, ok, well technically it could just be her priest or some random person or a coincidence, sure. But the movie's intention was the beheading of the woman was, at minimum, as if they were beheading Athena.

To say there was "nothing to suggest" is plainly wrong. The suggestion was there. There is an argument to be made between literally and metaphorically.

[u/Cacafuego → u/cat_silhouette]

"the Gods actually exist"

Do they? And if they do, do they actually talk to mortals? I thought that was one of the things the movie did pretty well. Magic exists, the underworld is real, and we know that some of the people and creatures we meet claim that they descended from gods, but the actual role of the gods in the movie is much more ambiguous than in the source. In the Iliad and the Odyssey, the gods are talking to mortals incessantly, fighting alongside them, and giving them real help.

In this movie, Athena just acts like a grief counselor, and only one man sees her. While either interpretation is valid, it makes more sense to me that she's just a figment of Odysseus' imagination, formed around a priestess of Athena he saw beheaded on the worst night of his life.

[u/cat_silhouette → u/Cacafuego]

I mean, if a cyclops and a witch who turns people into didn’t imply they personally are related to the existence of gods then I would be with you.

If prophecies weren’t real then I would agree.

You can’t have magic in your story but lie about it if it tangibly affects the plot.

I’m not sure if they’re meant to exist or not but those are my arguments for. My arguments against are essentially the same as yours.

But I liked the movie because you can make a case either way and have evidence for your opinion.

[u/Cacafuego → u/cat_silhouette]

I know what you mean, but there isn't a single scene where a god tells someone something they didn't already know or helps them to do something they couldn't do by themselves. Perhaps they stay on Olympus and take a much less active role.

It's also interesting that Athena appeared to both Odysseus and Telemachus in the epic in several different guises. In the movie, it's only to Odysseus and only as the girl who symbolizes his guilt and the reason he fears to come home. If she had appeared in that form to Telemachus, case closed...but she didn't.

Of course you're right, it's great that you can see it either way.

[u/Bush_Hiders → u/cat_silhouette]

I didn’t interpret the girl as her. I interpreted Athena taking the form of that girl, because that’s the death Odysseus felt the most guilt about, and idk, ig she wanted to fuck with him or something.