r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Morr4Seiya • 3d ago

Hated Tropes (Hated)changing somenthing to be more "progressive" ends up being a bad thing

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Now to be clear,i am not one of these "anti-woke" losers that complain some people exist,and i am also not the type to complain about changing somenthing in a new version or adaptation,however there are cases where it did ended up being a bad idea.

-In the anime of Cowboy Bebop there is the character Gren,despite being short lived the character is very memorable specially thanks to his tragic story.Basically his story was that he was a soldier from the titan war who was a great friend with Vicious(the main bad guy)after the war he was emprisioned thanks to Vicious who testified against him and he was forced to take a experimental drug that caused him hormonal problems,giving him a feminine appearence and even breasts.

In the Netflix live action,for some reasons they decided Gren was going to be non-binary,which wouldn't be a problem(some people believe he was gay in the anime)if it wasn't for the fact that they also removed all the nuances and complexities that made the character memorable and interesting,instead of a tragic war veteran that was betrayed and had his body changed against his will,Gren is just kinda there.

-The original Rugrats cartoon had the couple Betty and Howard,Betty was a big and masculine woman while Howard was a smaller and nervous man,it was a genuine interesting relationship that stood out from the other couples who were the standard straight couple.

In the new series however they replaced Howard with a woman named Trish,two things,first off why?What was the problem with having a woman being the stronger in a straight relationship?Second why does Hollywood seem to think that every tomboy or masculine woman is a lesbian?

Overall not the worst thing but it is jarring that they had a gender reverse roled that was progressive and decided that wasn't enough.

-Oh man,this one pisses me off the most so i am gonna have to break it down

So back in the late 80s and 90s there was this anime called Saint Seiya also knows as Knights of the zodiac,it tells the story of knights who fight for the Goddess Athena to protect earth,being divided in the golden,silver and bronze knights,the anime was a huge hit in latin america and Europe and while it floped in the US it still has a loyal fanbase.

Being a fan myself i can't recommend it enough,now granted the story does have a fair share of flaws,and that's because the author was honestly just making stuff up as he went along(also a lot of side characters are poorly used or even forgotten about)still it is a great story you should check out

But then a couple of years back Netflix got the rights and decided to a 3D reboot,in this reboot they decided to make the story more "american" to try to bring more american viewers,now i could go on and on a big rant about how that was a bad idea and the execution was so terrible that it made me want to strangle someone but this post is about one specific change.

So Saint Seiya has five main characters,those are Pegasus Seiya,Dragon Shiryu,Cygnus Hyoga,Phoenix Ikki and finally Andromeda Shun.

While the other four characters were the standard masculine and brute male characters who were always ready to throw punches,Shun was smaller,more sensitive and even feminine looking,a pacifist who didn't liked fighting,but don't mistake that for weakness because Shun was loyal to his friends and was extremely powerful.

Then Netflix decided to change Shun into a girl named Shaun.

So wait,you have a male character who goes against every male stereotype and you turn him into just another generic female character?

When asked about it,the showrunner Eugene Son said he made that change because there was no girl in the group and having a all boys group wouldn't be acceptable nowadays

First off that's not true because Athena was also part of the main cast,yeah she wasn't the fighting type but she still helped quite a lot in the story even saving the knights on several occasions,second if you wanted to add a girl to the main group why not use Marin or Shaina?Hell,if you were going to change the story anyway why not turn Seiya sister into a knight?

Thankfully this monstrosity was cancelled(so much for trying to bring more fans)

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u/Kilukpuk 3d ago

'Tomboy/strong female character is a lesbian' really pisses me off. Heaven forbid a non-conforming woman is allowed to be interested in men. Remember girls, if you're not feminine boys won't like you.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

How about the fact that they erased a non-masculine, not-assertive, non-conforming man and replaced them with a woman?

A positive relationship between the two as well.

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u/Ae3qe27u 3d ago

This. A male character who is weak or timid doesn't need to be made into a woman to be acceptable.

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u/JustAMinah 3d ago

yeah, I don't like that shit. if anything, I wanna see more of that representation because what folks don't get, is the impression it does to nonmen/women especially as kids. seeing dudes being all arrogant, macho, take no shit honestly screams intimidating and someone I don't wanna be around. a timid, shy man is someone i would be more comfortable around because they're just as shy as me. (now make him not perform toxic masculinity and respects all people, and i think he would be a winner)

I also hate that cishet male friendships of affection ain't common to see on screen, neither. it's why I appreciated the friendships I saw on lucifer. Dan thought it was weird to get a hug from amenadiel to now, that's how they greet each other

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u/Omega-10 3d ago

You could open a whole new discussion on that.

Tropes where perfectly valid friendships between two heterosexual men are intentionally misinterpreted or "rightfully re-interpreted" as being gay.

Especially in a lot of war stories, you see two very close friends and some people are like "LoL they're so gay (derogatory)!" and you've got other people like "we're going to reboot this story except keeping the author's true intentions of making characters x and y gay (progressive)" But they're not gay!! It's literally okay for two straight men to be close friends!

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

It's weird because even the guys who would push the stereotypical, macho guy stuff... generally want more of those male-male friendships on screen too. They embraced the whole "bromance" and "buddy-cop" shit. Frankly, I do too.

I don't understand why the people in charge of the majority of this cultural-creative stuff refuse to have positive male-male friendships. On that note - I also hate when the progressive left see those types of male-male friendships and immediately try to gayship them or polyship them with whatever female love interest in the story.

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u/OrdinaryIntroduction 3d ago

As an aromantic I get this to some degree, though I wouldn't call the shippers the progressive left so much as extremists that justify there toxic behavior through progressive slogans. People like that rarely want to engage with deeper nuances.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

I won't disagree that they're extremists and just performative progressives, but they are still "aligned" with the movement and never openly/widely criticized for it.

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u/OrdinaryIntroduction 2d ago

The paradox of tolerance, its not just tolerating bigots, its also the ethical question of do we tolerate people who believe in good stuff, even if they do so for the wrong reasons.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

That's one aspect of the paradox that is undertalked about for sure. Not tolerating intolerant evil is fine, but how much does intent versus action/effect matter for those who intend goodness? How do we prove they genuinely intend goodness and are not just saying it to get away with their evil?

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u/celestier 2d ago

They did this in the original silent Hill movie. The director saw a single father searching for his daughter in a hellscape dimension with monsters and fucking demons, and thought he was too hysterical, and they turned harry mason into a woman. Quote Christopher gannes the director "there's no political correctness in silent Hill". Fellas is It gay to panic your seven year old is in a hell dimension?

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u/Omega-10 3d ago

I really appreciate OPs post here because it's very easy to misconstrue this position as either bigoted or very 'woke' by either camp, and yet, I think anybody with a thinking brain can realize the world is more nuanced than the shouting media would have you believe.

It's OKAY to be a non-masculine, non-assertive man who is STRAIGHT! Growing up like this, the Right tells me: "LOL that means ur gay!" Today the Left answers "No she's actually a woman!"

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u/Just_Roll_Already 3d ago

Straight white guy here. When I was younger watching Rugrats in the 90s, I always really liked Howard and Betty. Betty seemed so comforting, like a big protective momma bear and I always associated Howard with a male seahorse. I just really found that comforting.

The momma bear is loving, protective, and aggressively idealistic. The father sea horse is nurturing, thoughtful, and supportive.

Not saying that this was written in stone for those characters since the series was surprisingly nuanced and had a lot of character depth, but god damn was it refreshing to see a father portrayed that way in a sea of "Everybody Loves Raymond" and "Home Improvement" copycats.

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u/Cactopus47 3d ago

Honestly, most of the dads on Rugrats were pretty non-stereotypical. Drew's the more active parent in Angelica's life since Charlotte has such a high-powered corporate job. Stu is a bit of an absentminded mess, but is still shown to be quite loving and caring to his family. Grandpa Lou is the kids' main babysitter. And then Chaz is quite in tune with his emotions and is raising Chuckie as a single parent until the later seasons.

The moms as well--Betty's into stereotypically masculine things, Charlotte's the career woman, and Didi works outside of the home while Stu works from home--and then in one episode she wins an intelligence-based game show. (I don't remember enough about Kira.) And then Mrs. Carmichael was a doctor, in contrast to her husband the artist, which is a reversal of stereotypical interests.

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u/MilkMaiden_22 3d ago

You had me until you said "the Left answers." This isnt the left. The left are the ones who have been pushing for an understanding of nuance in gender. These changes are made either by liberals, or by committees taking their best guess at how to make a movie have mass appeal to the lowest common denominator "modern audience"

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

No True Scotsman. You can't disavow liberals from the left just because it's convenient here. Progressives do a lot of gender erasure themselves, anyway.

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u/MilkMaiden_22 3d ago edited 3d ago

Its not a matter of convenience man its the definitions of words. Leftist/the left =/= liberal. Liberals, in the "western" world, are more or less representative of the center, be they conservative liberals or progressive liberals

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

The "definition of words" is constantly changing, always to suit whatever benefits the person the most. Calling for the exact, true definition of a word is meaningless and ingenuine.

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u/Omega-10 3d ago

Liberals are not "the left"? How do you draw the distinction there and between conservatives or "the right"?

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u/MilkMaiden_22 3d ago edited 3d ago

Liberals are basically the center. You can have conservative liberals and progressive liberals, who sure, are right and left of center respectively, but are not the same thing as leftists or fascists or "far-right" or "far-left"

Edit: that is NOT to say that liberal means center, just that the center of politics in the western world right now is liberalism, which is why it's kinda taken for granted and able to just be plastered onto the broader left even though it's not what the term means

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u/makyura212 3d ago

In American contexts...

Liberals are commonly, socially moderate to liberal and economically center-right.

Leftists are commonly, socially liberal to progressive, to economically (center-)left.

To distinguish the social stances, while there is many common traits with being socially liberal and socially progressive, one of the more common contrasts is the former's commitment to maintain a sort of status quo and/or reluctance shift from it so suddenly. In addition, a slower adoption of platforms or embracing of certain movements in the more assertive way progressives would. While the meaning does shift over time as we understand certain things better, a particular example would be the 1960s civil rights movement and the divide between black leaders and many of their white allies.

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u/MonsieurKrabes 3d ago

Liberalism is a capitalist ideology, so right wing (pre Trump republicans) to center-left (European-style social democracy). Liberals in America play into these stupid culture war talking points to avoid having to seriously address the material conditions of the working class (leftist stuff). Hillary Clinton said "If we broke up the big banks tomorrow, would that end racism? Would that end sexism?" Ridiculous, and perfectly illustrative of my point that the center hides behind ostensibly progressive social beliefs while bending us over and fucking us, good and hard. Both parties in America are right of center and don't care about you or me. In fact, they HATE us. A true left party would run a candidate that DID want to break up the big banks.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

It's why I hate both sides. The right is blatantly racist and sexist, the left is performatively progressive but still racist and sexist, largely.

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u/Loki_Agent_of_Asgard 3d ago

Bellcurve theory.

The further right or left you get the more they arrive at essentially the same conclusions but for different reasons.

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u/Allronix1 2d ago

I heard it called Horseshoe Theory And a Horseshoe is always covered in horse shit

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u/JustAMinah 3d ago

the only difference is, one wants to pretend to look like a "good" person while the other wants to be bold with their hate.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

Which is worse? Probably the bold one but it's a tough competition.

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u/Allronix1 2d ago

I'd take the guy who is up front and to my face about it than she asshole who pretends to be on my side but is still trying to kick my legs out from under me. The first guy is one where I know where he stands. I don't like it, but I know what I am getting

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

Up until the overt guy tries to murder you.

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u/JustAMinah 3d ago

I don't like neither but the covert is worse because well, they're secretive. they're narc-like, so the moment the mask slips a lil, that's time to conclude they're not safe and treat them like the overts and actively stay away (overts announce who they are, so its easier to avoid) and navigating misogynoir (so, both racism and sexism) I'm very aware of this. even queer communities are unsafe if they're racist (and many that aren't diverse, usually are)

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u/Omega-10 3d ago

I'm not a "both sides" kind of guy these days. I vote blue in a red state. It's a pretty depressing existence honestly!

You should understand that generally the entire population behaves in a way they believe is good while also masking their mistakes. There is a values dissonance in America. I take it you've never been ostracized by a church group before or people who claim to "follow Jesus". Christianity preaches the most progressive, accepting, socialist-thinking beliefs and yet the Right is pretty much anything but. I've also been banned from online spaces for not posturing myself as the most queer-positive LGBTQ ally every day all the time always forever and always by some supposedly "accepting" communities. The difference is, I'd rather get banned from Tumblr than get my family rounded up by ICE and shot, so...

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

Tim Pool last month admitted that the right will use authoritative power to commit violence rather than get theirs hands personally dirty, and using a government to enforce violence is a terrifying thing.

It really comes down to the tyrant who will use ultimate human force to oppress others or the tyrant who thinks themselves the noblest person and all of their evil is justified and good.

TBF Christians outside of America are much more reasonable and actual Christians. American Christians are uniquely WTF.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

I'll steel-argue in reverse - the bold are happy to be actively destructive while the covert have a slim chance to be put back on the noble path. Like, the bold are basically doomer black pills and the covert are useful idiots, in a meme-analogy way. Granted, nothing is more dangerous than an evil person who sees themselves as the Greatest Good performing noble deeds.

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u/JustAMinah 2d ago

I'm not gonna argue about my lived experience with antiblack racism and misogynoir of overt and covert bigots

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u/Allronix1 2d ago

Nothing noble about it. The overt guy has a better chance of talking it through because you know where he's standing and why. The latter is gonna virtue signal and lie to your face, say all the right buzzwords and still treat you as an inferior

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u/Glum_Rain_5824 2d ago

I’m not understanding the conclusion of either, but my perspective as a non-binary is this: OPs post suggest Betty is a masculine woman due to her behavior and how she dresses, and the comment your replying to says ”they erased a non-masculine man”. but what makes either of them feminine or masculine unless we look at it from the pov of ‘women do this’ and ‘men do that’? What makes Howard a non-masculine man? Being timid and non-negotiable? If so, what makes those traits more feminine and why do we consider it that? Unraveling the beliefs everyone learns while growing up in a hetero society isn’t easy, but I think they’re worth questioning

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u/Visible-Variation385 3d ago

At this point I just accept there is no place for men. And the world would be better if we died off. Is it true? Maybe not. But the situation is hopeless and die off is better then what we got now.

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u/AceOBlade 3d ago

They are always targeted to be replaced by a LGBTQ characters in rewrites and live actions.

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u/carpincho_carajo 3d ago

Which only reinforces the wrong and old af idea that a straight man always has to be very masculine, that they can't be sensitive, shy or gentle.

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u/QueerAlQaida 2d ago

I thought they had transitioned 😭😭😭

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u/CosmicWanderer2814 3d ago

Back when Dragon Age: Inquisition came out, i remember seeing some folk get really pissed at BioWare when they found out Cassandra is straight. They kept claiming she is so obviously lesbian-coded due to, y'know, short hair and other masculine features. Accused BioWare of queer-baiting because god forbid a tomboy/masculine-looking woman like men. 

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u/NoMereMage 3d ago

This shit pissed me off. I had a friend mad about this and I was like “it’s kind of fucked of you to be mad she’s not a lesbian or LGBT just because she as a woman has masculine traits.” Plenty of cis het women have masculine traits. I appreciated them for not making her a stereotype.

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u/Separate_Business_86 3d ago

I read that Cassandra was based off a real woman who was always dealing with the same issue too. People kept assuming she must be gay or at the very least bi and she wasn't. She also had a thing for romance novels in real life too and the writer wanted to include those traits because people just can't seem to accept that they exist in a woman that presented more masculine for some reason.

The backlash was weird too. I respect games where characters aren't all player-sexual. It is annoying when the LI are limited (Cyberpunk) so you only have one choice, but I still respect that they have preferences and just because you think Judy Alvarez is attractive, doesn't mean she reciprocates.

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u/ironangel2k4 2d ago

Oh, I see, she was me in high school.

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u/1Kassanova 3d ago

Yeah I remember that. Shit was so dumb.

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u/KitchenFullOfCake 3d ago

I think everyone gets mad at Bioware for the orientation of a character no matter who they are. They're just mad that their ship isn't gonna work out.

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u/Allronix1 2d ago

I mean, there's always mods.

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u/JustAMinah 3d ago

they were doing that with mizu. "Oh, they haaaas to be trans because they were raised as a boy!" with blue eyed samurai. even in the queer community, there's stereotypes and conformity which is wild, being that's what makes it polar opposite of heteronormativity (not conforming to those standards and shit) it's like, a certain culture of people still strive for some sort of boxes and labels to keep putting people in, and making them fit what they think they should fit into

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u/musclenugget92 3d ago

You're never enough of an Ally for the internet, remember that.

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u/ParryDotter 3d ago

Imagine accusing Dragon Age of all franchises for not being queer friendly lol

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u/Truethrowawaychest1 3d ago

Isn't one of the creators of the series a very openly gay man?

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u/Allronix1 2d ago

Yup. And irony is he wrote both heterosexual romances in KOTOR.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

TBF, it got less authentic and more performative with each entry. DAO is a perfect game and it's been a steep downhill since.

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u/Truethrowawaychest1 3d ago

Remember, stereotypes are bad

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u/OrdinaryIntroduction 3d ago

The biggest problem I have with "coding" characters is that it ironically forces people into stereotypes and roles for that person. It reminds me of how some people are upset that in the newest Transformers show the character Jazz is being voiced by an Asian American. Yet if Transformers is really a multiverse, why can't there be a Jazz who has an Asian American vibe, or an Ironhide who is black, an Arcee whose Columbian and so on. Is it really that hard for someone to still carry the vibes of the character, even if their a different nationality. I personally don't care who is voicing a character, so much as can they capture the vibes of said character.

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u/Allronix1 2d ago

They had a tantrum over Cora in ME:A as well because of The Hair, the Fighter, the Butch appearance.

But it was actually fucking brilliant that Cora WAS heterosexual. Think about it. She was surrounded by asari. She totally embraced asari culture. She was perfect wife material for an asari looking to expand the gene pool.

But...there was that one little problem that kept her from staying on Thessia and raising her own little blue commando squad. Like "sorry, I prefer the company of men" in reverse.

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u/Ok-Transition7065 3d ago

oh man, and with zenless zone zero with caesar been a shojo manga fan and daydreamign with the male mc in his video bruh

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u/SmoothDiscussion7763 3d ago

the real travesty is how you can't romance all companions no matter your PC's gender

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u/Prudent-Marsupial-42 3d ago edited 3d ago

Honestly it's why I hate the whole 'egg' concept in trans communities. Anybody slightly non-conforming they pre designate them as trans. It's so antithetical to the idea of accepting people's stated gender identities

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u/T8-TR 3d ago

I only figured out what this meant recently (just never questioned my trans friends when they were spouting "egg? Egg" because it sounded like a silly in-joke) and I'm kinda on-board.

It's pretty messed up to just label a mfer as being in the closet like that. Like "Oh, you're XYZ. You just don't know it yet." It just gives me the ick, because that would be absolutely unacceptable if you went up to a trans person and went "Yeah, you're gonna want to de-transition, you just don't know it yet." Re-branding the statement w/ a cutest term doesn't change that.

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u/Delicious_Argument36 3d ago

Same here, it feels really weird when progressive spaces and the people in them try to force their own perception of who you are onto you like how the world already does to these same communities, yet few in them seem to notice the double standard

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u/Ok-Transition7065 3d ago

yeah its sound liek that meme of under a new administration from megamind

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u/AthenaPb 3d ago

Well the idea was you didn't prematurely try and crack the egg, but let them hatch in their own time.

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u/Mr_Halitosis 3d ago

No, the idea was you’re not allowed to be weird. That’s a central part of the philosophy behind a lot of pro-LGBT rhetoric. They were accused of being abnormal and therefore morally wrong. They responded by saying they’re totally normal so they can’t be morally wrong. They accepted the premise. Now they have to say that anything that’s abnormal is morally wrong.

Therefore, anyone who isn’t normal is somehow closeted. Masculine cishet woman? Nope. Closeted lesbian or egg. Feminine cishet man? Nope, closeted homosexual or egg.

The entire idea is that if they’re not closeted then they’re abnormal and therefore morally wrong.

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u/AthenaPb 3d ago

What?

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u/TylertheFloridaman 3d ago

I've found it weird how so many parts of the lbtgq+ community have worked to distance themselves from traditional stereotypes but other portions seem intent on pushing them

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u/Mallow1512 3d ago

at work i met a gay guy who insisted that i'm gay because i enjoy gardening, baking, cooking, perfumery and wear pink clothing, i'm a cis male and i like women

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u/Truethrowawaychest1 3d ago

I get people thinking I'm gay all the time because I put effort in my appearance and I smell good, and it's not the insulting way of calling someone gay

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u/Greyjack00 3d ago

In my anecdotal experience a lot of people i knew that came out as trans/NB in college tended to snap into fairly rigid gender expectations in others for a while. 

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u/Blueskybelowme 3d ago

How many social issues are caused by pushed gender norms and how many of the social issues would even exist without gender norms. It's almost like without these terms and definitions certain groups wouldn't even exist because there wouldn't be a need to. I notice a lot of people try to be something and fit in somewhere and then apply a bunch of stereotypes to themselves as if they're trying to put themselves in some small box. I've personally been judged because I don't fit in those norms. Certain people feel like they need those norms to even conform to the idea that they want. Trans women needing to rely on female stereotypes and prejudice ideas to conform to the idea of being a woman and then turn around and be mad at me because I'm not doing it like they're doing it. I was born with a vagina unfortunately that does not mean that I need to wear makeup and shave my legs and armpits. And I am sorry that you feel like you actually have to because not doing it makes you feel not feminine enough. Shave if you want to fine but don't come at me for going against the idea you are using to form yourself. Are we being stereotypes or are we not being stereotypes and I am asking everyone regardless of if you identify with your birth gender or not. Do stereotypes actually help people? Are they a valid tool or not?

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u/ArtemisiaOrthia 3d ago

The problem with this, at least from a trans woman's perspective, is that gender dysphoria is a killer, and the easiest way to "pass" so you can deal with it and feel like you belong is to try to perform femininity as much as you can so that you're perceived as a "normal" woman and receive the social benefits, like more safety from abuse, being gendered correctly, etc.

I understand where this is coming from (I'm a tomboy and hate performing a lot of the "feminine" things you mentioned, so I don't), but worth keeping in mind that the issues facing trans people, especially trans women when it comes to issues like this, are established by patriarchy as excuses to bury women. If someone is obviously trans (or even gnc, as I'm sure you're familiar) then they risk being harassed or assaulted.

Does it do anything useful to throw some blame on these trans women just for trying to chase gender euphoria and be safer? I'm not sure.

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u/PrezMoocow 3d ago edited 3d ago

Can I ask what you're referring to when you say trans women "needing to rely on female stereotypes and prejudice" and getting mad that you don't do it?

Trans women are not a monolith. I don't wear makeup outside special occasions nor would I ever push any woman, cis or trans, to be forced to perform femininity to validate her gender expression. Or get mad that she doesn't. If anything, trans people I've found are far more respectful of gender-non-conforming stuff than cis people who will claim a woman isn't a woman on the basis of her not performing femininity enough.

We just want to be ourselves, that has nothing to do with pushing stereotypes.

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u/BeegBunga 3d ago

It's the idea that the standards that some people judge what it is to be "a man" or "a woman" are actually just stereotypes.

Instead of dismissing and rejecting the idea of gender norms and stereotypes, they've decided to fully embrace those stereotypes as part of their identity.

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u/PrezMoocow 3d ago edited 3d ago

Yes, the standards of "woman" and "man" being based on stereotypes are awful. Which is why trans people's existence pushes back against that. It's kind of the entire point of our existence is we were labeled as one and have found a different identity. The binary itself is outdated, hence non-binary gender identities. It's not like we're the ones who made these stereotypes. And it's the transphobic individuals who tell me I'm not a woman because I dont "look female enough" who are pushing stereotypes.

Who's "they" referring to when you say they've decided to fully embrace the stereotypes as part of their identity?

Like, if a woman decides to wear make up and shave her legs, is she "embracing stereotypes". Should she not do those things even if she wants to?

I guess the question is what specific stereotypes are you referring to? Long hair? Wearing skirts? Wearing makeup? Painting nails? Shaving body hair?

Plenty of cis and trans women do those things, are they "embracing stereotypes" even if it's done just as a personal preference?

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u/Purple-Site2281 3d ago

You can't win, if you're not "feminine" enough you are just a fetishist pervert who's not even trying. If you are "feminine enough" you are upholding patriarchal and misogynistic stereotypes. These people don't care.

Like they never have that same vitriol for conservative/right wing women who do infinitely more to uphold patriarchy (even liberal women do that). Trans women are such a small minority with no real power, but for some reason it is their job to fight against a thousand year old system.

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u/PrezMoocow 3d ago

Yep! And of course, only trans people are guilty. Cis people can dress as stereotypically as they want and nobody will accuse them of "pushing gender stereotypes"

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u/Purple-Site2281 3d ago

"choice feminism" determined based on how harmful the choices made are, apparently excludes trans people

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u/BeegBunga 3d ago edited 3d ago

I guess the question is what specific stereotypes are you referring to? Long hair? Wearing skirts? Wearing makeup? Painting nails? Shaving body hair?

All of the above. These are all gender stereotypes

A man or woman is..... whatever they want to be!

It's all about your motivations. Did you adopt wearing make-up because you wanted to do it? Or did you do it because that's what 'a woman' does?

They are very different motivations. One is empowering, one is conforming to a stereotypical gender norm.

In many ways, such conformity legitimizes and reinforces those stereotypes.

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u/PrezMoocow 3d ago

I do all of those things because I wanted to do it. So I guess im not pushing stereotypes

So again, who are you referring to when you say "they decided to fully embrace stereotypes as part of their identity"? Who is "they" referring to?

It's definitely not me. My gender identity doesn't change just because i cut my hair or didnt wear makeup that day.

Also, plenty of women wear make up because they feel pressured to by society and don't actually want to. It sucks, but I dont think it's fair for you to blame them for "pushing stereotypes". Blame society for creating those pressures in the first place. Blame workplaces that would shame women for not wearing makeup.

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u/BeegBunga 3d ago

"they" is people who confuse self discovery with adopting a gender stereotype. It's an unhealthy form of trans based off exterior motivations. It's the people who mash gender-dysphoria and sexual-dysphoria into the same thing.

You seem to think society is forcing people to do things. Society is not.

A guy who likes make-up and dresses doesn't have to be trans. If you change yourself to fit into whatever this "society" you speak of is, then you have changed for someone else and are not living your true identity.

Blame society for creating those pressures in the first place. Blame workplaces that would shame women for not wearing makeup.

Your logic only reinforces those same stereotypes. Instead of rebelling or rejecting societies judgement, you've doubled down on it.

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u/Plenty_Leg_5935 3d ago

Almost as if the LGBTQ+ community is made up of individuals in vastly different situations and with vastly different goals in life

I don't understand why people expect every LGBTQ+ person to be a raging crusader of progressivism fighting against gender norms and what not. Most gay men are just normal dudes who like guys, most trans men are just dudes born with boobs. Same for the inverses.

Being part of the demographic blatantly increases your odds of becoming vocally political, sure, but theres no reason for it to be a guarantee. Most people just want to live their life the way their cishet peers do, and just like with cishet people, they are often fine with keeping traditional structure of society

If anything it should imo be suprising that there's so relatively few cishet people pushing against gender norms

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u/TylertheFloridaman 3d ago

I don't csre if they don't rage against gender norms, I think it matters when they use gender norms to try to tell someone what type of perosn they should be

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u/PrezMoocow 3d ago

Which is exactly what transphobes do when they tell me "you cannot be a woman because to me you dont look female".

Trans communities don't push gender norms on others. It's kind of the whole point. My decisions on how i present my gender is not some statement on "how women should look". It's my own gender expression.

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u/TylertheFloridaman 3d ago

My point is that some Trans peopel are by saying other people are transgender by not confronting to gender roll. Telling some they are an egg is making an assumption about because of how they act in regards to their gender rolls. You can think some one is Trans if they haven't said ut but you can try to lich them towards that based off your own beliefs

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u/PrezMoocow 3d ago

I do agree that it's not appropriate to call someone am egg just because the showed gender non conforming behavior. The vast majority of trans people find that behavior completely unacceptable and tantamount to misgendering/transphobia. I do give the benefit of the doubt that the person calling someone an egg was trying to be helpful but their actions are harmful and inappropriate.

If you'd like to give the specific example, I'd be happy to share my thoughts further on this specific instance (like what was the stereotype and what did they say). And to be clear, a trans person inappropriately assuming gender non conforming behavior as evidence of someone being trans does not suddenly reflect the views of a portion of the community. Just like a woman being bad at math does not mean that women are bad at math.

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u/CompoteNext1955 3d ago

You don't like it because it wouldn't be tolerated online in any other context than trans people doing it to non-trans people. Just because it's presented through meme terms doesn't mean it's any less harmful

'A lesbian likes other lesbians that drive pickup trucks? They must secretly desire penises and I should tell them that'

That is a shitty thing to do to anyone. It should stop

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u/Helpful-Werewolf-678 3d ago

Massive agree on this. For the record, I have 0 problem with the gay and trans communities, it is specifically the "egg" shit i have a problem with, because to me it reads like grooming the majority of the time.

Folks, just because you do not conform to a social gender role does not mean you need to transition. In fact, all that does is uphold that unhealthy worldview. It's like, if you don't conform to what society sees your gender as, then you must be an "egg" and are actually Trans, which again reinforces gender stereotypes by literally "othering" yourself. I'm a man who does some feminine stuff, but that's because i simply do not care about what society defines masculinity as. Be comfortable in your identity, don't feel like you should change it because you don't align with society. Stand out as exceptions because that is what we actually need rather than people just constantly reinforcing "men do this and women do that, and if you're doing what the other gender does then you need to swap sides."

Bigots who see this, I am not on your side. People have a right to exist. But the egg shit has got to go.

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u/Xp-Hyperbowl 3d ago

wasn't the original usage for people describing themselves before realizing? someone using something incorrectly doesn't mean everyone else using it is a predator, if that were the case then it's bad news for straight people

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u/TheRissingHootHoot 3d ago

True and i don't think using it in that context is a bad thing 

But yeah people really need to stop putting the egg label on other people and i say that as a trans person 

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u/JetJoestar 3d ago

As a trans woman, I see why you are frustrated as I agree the Trans community can be a little hasty with putting the egg label on an man with feminine interests or qualities. However, being an egg is a very important phase in realizing that you are Trans which is why I disagree heavily that it "needs to go".

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u/Prudent-Marsupial-42 3d ago

I think it's totally cool to be like "yeah when I was an egg". Really my only issue is applying the labels onto others

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u/Helpful-Werewolf-678 3d ago

Sure, I won't deny that people who are Trans will have to come to that realization sooner or later. Breaking the shell is yalls version of self acceptance and is what leads to coming out, I get that. Like I said i don't have a problem with the Trans community. My main issue is that, like you said, the community is way too hasty in assigning that lable, and especially when it comes to online communities it almost becomes grooming when there's the constant reinforcement of "you have to change who you are to align with society's view of gender." Not said in those words exactly, but that is, essentially, what it boils down to sometimes.

I'm just tired of seeing people who simply don't align with gender norms being constantly told that they are Trans and just need to "break the egg." It's more harmful to the wider movement of breaking those gender norms, because then we're making it seem that if you don't align, then YOU need to change, when in reality we all know its society that needs to change.

Sorry if some of this comes off problematic, that's not the intention. Every community has problems, its just that this problem i only see being talked about by the worst people to talk about it

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u/JetJoestar 3d ago

No, I agree with you on that. Some in the trans community treat it too loosely or even "trendy". When in reality, the egg phase is a serious and crucial phase in discovering being Trans. I don't think it should be thrown around so easily.

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u/Helpful-Werewolf-678 3d ago

I agree. And I'm sorry your first reply got downvoted so much, I read your discussion with one of the other commenters and I think you have a pretty well thought out take. It's an important phase, and one that shouldn't be pushed onto someone by someone else while they're still trying to figure themselves out

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u/Perezking17 3d ago

The only contexts i've ever heard of people using the term egg, it was when a trans coworker kept trying to convince another coworker they were gay because they wanted that coworker to sleep with them, eventually the person quit because the trans coworker tried to date-rape them during a party of mutuals.

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u/JetJoestar 2d ago

Then that's just an awful manipulative person. Doesn't make egg a negative term, but reinforces people taking something and twisting it to fit a selfish goal. Something that people of all races, gender and sexual orientation seem to do these days.

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u/Perezking17 2d ago

Its just the only context that i've seen it used in, unfortunately.

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u/BroFTheFriendlySlav 3d ago

Not a single trans person I know had faced that realisation through being called an egg or someone actively pushing for their transition. If anything exactly that split the friend group. Maybe a sample size of a couple dozen people is too small for my opinion to matter, but I'd still rather voice it.

There are way better ways to support someone than acting like an omnicient authority over their identity. Sharing your own experience, being there for them to confide in and generally being supportive of them breaking gender norms instead of reinforcing them and acting as if that's an act of kindness. If they hadn't discovered they are trans yet - with a support structure like that they will reach that conclusion themselves sooner than later. If they aren't - you wouldn't end up pushing them away.

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u/JetJoestar 3d ago

I feel I misworded my post. I agree that I don't think the label should be placed on anyone by someone else. The only person who decided that should decide someone is Trans is themselves. But the label itself is okay if someone is in that phase.

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u/BroFTheFriendlySlav 3d ago

"Egg" by definition is someone who hadn't realized they're trans yet. So if they call themselves that - they do realize it and therefore by definition cannot be applied to oneself. How is that supposed to work? There's closet for that. In all uses I had ever seen "egg" had only been used to address someone else.

Edit: unless you mean as in referring to past self identity. Which yes would be fair if only it ever actually was used that way

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u/JetJoestar 3d ago

Egg is the stage where yes you aren't aware, but also where you are starting to recognize signs. For me it, it was the beginning of gender Dysphoria. It hit me like a truck in my early 30s after finally coming out thinking I was gay, which I repressed since I was a young teen. I didnt come to terms of actually being Trans until years later with the help of therapy.

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u/No-Stand7672 3d ago

Tbh isn't that why there's the whole "prime directive" thing where you never tell a suspected egg that you think they are one? Making it a kind of shrodinger's egg. Because any push could mess up the natural balance and sway their percieved identity one way or another, pushing a possible trans person to repress it, or pushing a non-trans person to think they are. That isn't to say don't provide a safe environment to experiment and explore who you are.

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u/JetJoestar 3d ago

Very true and I agree.

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u/Classic-Jicama9164 3d ago edited 3d ago

Having someone tell me trans people exist and I was showing some traits would've prevented more than one suicide attempt, but yeah no one should ever reach out about it ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Edit: this was admittedly lashing out a bit, but seriously maybe we can teach people to not react with absolute disgust the moment someone even begin to suggest they might be queer? Instead of just condemning trans people who may not realize it's an option to either figuring it out alone or offing themselves.

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u/No-Stand7672 3d ago

That's still different than calling them an egg to their face. That's part of the whole providing a safe environment thing.

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u/Classic-Jicama9164 3d ago

I'm really not seeing the difference between "Egg" and "Someone who might be trans and doesn't know"

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u/Remmock 3d ago

Describing someone as an egg is definitive. “You are trans and you haven’t realized it.”

Saying “someone who might be trans” is not.

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u/No-Stand7672 3d ago

It's mostly language. In my personal experience I've heard it more so used from other people before said individual comes out. Or from said individual after coming out talking about the phase. Egg is mostly talking about a phase in a transition. Whereas telling someone you think they show some traits is more specific then going "I think you might be an egg"

I wasn't advocating for or against the prime directive, just asking if that wasn't the whole philosophy behind it. I've long since grown conflicted with it because of stories like yours, and my own personal experience where I had no one for years.

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u/Classic-Jicama9164 3d ago

Valid ❤️ that makes a bit more sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain and sorry for lashing out. I should probably stay off here for a bit if I'm jumping right to that off the bat 😪

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u/iftheronahadntcome 3d ago

I mean... telling people Eggs exist is fine I feel?? I'm not trans, but someone who dresses at times in a non gender-conforming way, and I feel like trans folks gave me permission to do that. It's kind of like the, "Don't tell the kids being gay exists because they may be..." thing. It's like, "If TELLING someone queer people existed made them wanna run out and date someone of the same gender, I don't think telling them the concept exists is what did it..."

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u/No-Stand7672 3d ago

You misunderstand. I'm not saying to not educate people about the terms or existence. That's a requirement for providing a safe environment, bringing awareness. I mean moreso outright telling someone to their face that they're an egg. I used to believe pretty hard in the prime directive but recent years has shifted my view to where I'm largely uncertain (one of the other commenters on my comment is a good example of why but,) which is why I think the safe environment to explore, educating on what is out there is more important than any one individual label. Terms change meaning as language evolved over time. What it means to make a safe environment doesn't. The words and the actual criteria might, but safety is safety, and freedom hurts no one. Humans are complicated.

Regardless, I wasn't advocating for or against the prime directive, more so just asking if that wasn't the point of it.

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u/TylertheFloridaman 3d ago

Exclude it to only someone labeling themselves as it

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u/runnysyrup 3d ago

only two things are truly infinite:

  1. human stupidity

  2. the number of times a non-masculine cis man gets called an egg

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u/TheSadPhilosopher 3d ago

That shit is just grooming imo

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u/Aimela 3d ago

Saying it in retrospect for someone is fine, but applying it to someone else who hasn't been outright confirmed as trans is just plain weird and disrespectful.

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u/PM_ME_DEAD_KEBAB 3d ago

Yeah I had a friend who was like this. Used to go around talking about how your journey is unique and yours and how nobody should pressure anyone into any specific mold, and then would turn around and call half the cis men she interacted with eggs. And also would make excuses for people she'd do it to for years who never ended up coming out like "oh they have bigger issues to deal with" type stuff. It put me off transitioning for far longer than I think I would have otherwise.

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u/theaviationhistorian 3d ago

This is a major problem I have with culture issues. Too many throughout the political spectrum have to pigeonhole people into specific categories. The human mind is beyond complex to be done that way. It's a reason why progress into autistic minds and treatment is so slow, we tend to be almost uniquely customized by where we are on the autistic spectrum, our life experiences, age we get diagnosed, medications we've taken, etc. Before, any nonconforming person was shoved into the bisexual category and now they're pigeonholed into nonbinary. No offense to those that voluntarily became or chose to be nonbinary. you folks are awesome and stay awesome!

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u/Sanskrit86 3d ago

"What a cool thing for other people to decide!" -Dan Avidan

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u/Pumpkin_Sushi 2d ago

"Egg cracking" has rightly been criticised and largely dropped for being tied to child grooming groups

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u/PrezMoocow 3d ago

Clearly you haven't been in most trans community if you think we call anyone slightly gender non-conforming to be trans. Even egg discourse is considered highly controversial (for good reason).

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Intelligent-Bite3795 3d ago

hi im butch and i would love to know all these examples of integral butch characters in media you’re referring to. most lesbian media to me seems to be fem/fem so if you actually know any please tell me 🙏

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u/AlthorsMadness 3d ago

The one that gets me is the women who are only gay because of men trope

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u/NumbMacho 3d ago

The best recent case where strong/tomboy character is interted in men is Helga Kilgore from D&D: Honour Among Thieves. Also another reverse of regural trope is that shes interested in shorter men, who are kind. Which is also nice in these times.

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u/Status-Inevitable537 3d ago edited 3d ago

What is that Rugrats animation?! One of the reasons I loved Phil and Lil's parents was do to how opposite they were of each other. The mom is an extrovert, while the husband is timid.

Now if the husband decided to become trans, that's fair, but to erase him and replace him with a female partner does play into the Butch lesbian stereotype.

Masc hetero women do exist and I've seen some date other masc and feminine men.

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u/HappyGlitterUnicorn 3d ago edited 3d ago

There is nothing wrong with being a timid, soft, non traditionally masculine man and being straight. It's like being so far left that you become far right.

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u/Status-Inevitable537 3d ago

Reread my reply, I stated that's why I LOVED them as parents. She also will go out of her way to defend him. They were my favorites.

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u/HappyGlitterUnicorn 3d ago

I know, I was agreeing with you. I don't see why they needed to change that.

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u/Status-Inevitable537 3d ago

My mistake, I thought you were twisting my reply. To change the subject, I also hated how in the Powerpuff girls reboot, they removed the girl's teacher breast for a simple bump. But having the girl's twerking is okay, a sexualized dance.

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u/Phaeron-Dynasty 3d ago

Horse shoe theory certainly has some truth to it.

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u/lanceturley 3d ago

Technically, they didn't erase Howard. He's still in the show, and is still the biological father of Phil and Lil, he's just not with Betty in this version.

Other than that, I agree that Betty and Howard as a straight couple was a more interesting dynamic than Betty being lesbian just because she's a tomboy and a feminist.

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u/Status-Inevitable537 3d ago edited 3d ago

Thanks for the explanation, I was confused and didn't recall that from Rugrats. Now I'm sad they are not in this version.

I guess Betty has a thing for purple hair partners. Lol

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u/lanceturley 3d ago

Yeah, the reboot made quite a few changes I personally don't care for. Like, they updated everything to modern day, so now Tommy's grandpa is some kind of new age hippie who grew up in the 60's, instead of the cantankerous WW2 vet he was in the original. It's a completely different character.

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u/anonymausssss 3d ago

How is that fair?

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u/Independent-Couple87 3d ago

Brienne of Tarth.

https://giphy.com/gifs/QVO66lvWTCDhLSnJUu

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u/Upset-Farm-5225 3d ago

and yet game of thrones also got it wrong by making the dreaded reaver with a boy in every port, asha greyjoy, into the lame, bisexual yara greyjoy

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u/Independent-Couple87 3d ago

George R. R. Martin apparently did like the personality given to Yara, and wanted to add some of that to Asha in the books.

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u/Upset-Farm-5225 3d ago

all respect to the man but asha is already such a wonderful creation that she makes the ironborn plotline a joy to read

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u/fuckyourcanoes 3d ago

Right? I was a tomboy. I'm also attracted to masculinity in both men and women. Because... duh. I gravitate towards the masculine, for others and myself.

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u/AceOBlade 3d ago

This is why Toph is one of the GOATs.

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u/Adaphion 3d ago edited 3d ago

I remember how many people were pissed when Panam from Cyberpunk 2077 was straight (and just in general how romance options were limited to whatever gender your V is) instead of them being bisexual out of convenience.

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u/FlamingWings 3d ago

I’d argue it’s because of how in her relationship mission she lets Female V get to physically close before telling her she’s no interested. The two were cuddling on a coach together and rubbing feet, it was very weird

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u/girlrva 3d ago

In a similar vein, Coach Beiste spending the early seasons of Glee asserting that just because she has typically masculine interests and isn't traditionally pretty doesn't make her less of a woman, and in later seasons they make the character a trans man.

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u/Majestic_Recording_5 3d ago

Yeah I think that was a pretty weird choice for the writers and undermined the point the earlier eps were trying to make.

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u/Masked020202 3d ago

Then there is me who likes tomboys haha ^^.
Tomboys can be cute too can also be a personality trait not just looks.

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u/Explosive_Orange54 3d ago

Yeah, that's Karlach in a few cases. She is a strong, beautiful and overall wonderful character but some people act like BECAUSE SHE IS KISSING PECKS when you have sex scene with her as a male/ male presenting character, then it's "obviously" a sign that she was planned as a lesbian.

C'mon, maybe she likes man's tits.

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u/Thatoneguy111700 3d ago

The VA echoing the statment that they voiced her as a lesbian probably doesn't help that notion.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

That's strange because girls kissing/playing with male pecks is a normal hetero thing in many cultures.

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u/inkstainedgoblin 3d ago

I don't know where all these butch lesbian characters supposedly are in media. most masculine female characters are straight because making her a lesbian would be supposedly stereotypical... meanwhile most lesbian characters are just barely gender-nonconforming if not super femme. Where are the big strong lesbian characters hiding, I beg you to tell me.

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u/Aimela 3d ago

Plus, many lesbian women are also just as feminine as any straight woman.

Man or woman, straight or gay, sexual orientation does not have much at all to do with being more masculine or feminine, or vice-versa.

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u/BeegBunga 3d ago

I honestly think a lot of modern gender ideology has gone so progressive as to be a step backwards in some ways.

"Oh, you're a boy who likes feminine things? No you're not, you're trans and actually a woman." [paraphrasing, but i have literally heard this said]

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u/Inspired_Nuisance 3d ago

I also hate the stereotype that strong women are all dominatrix/bdsm queens. If they are interested in men, then that relationship is generally that the man is a pervert who enjoys being pegged and shit. Like some of us guys find buff women attractive but don't want to get our balls stepped on, and I'm sure plenty of these women aren't getting fit just to appeal to the type of men who have that kind of kink.

No offense to either, you do you, but the stereotype is so annoying. Any time I express my attraction to a muscular woman people assume I'm one of those types of guys.

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u/Bloodyjorts 3d ago

Yeah, I remember when one of the Game of Thrones guys called Brienne a lesbian.

Like what? What the fuck are you talking about? Having short hair and wearing pants does not a lesbian make. She's was enamored with Renly, and has some kind of mutual-yearning situationship with Jaime going on.

Dany and Cersei actually had sex with women, but were never called a lesbian or bisexual by TPTB.

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u/Wiinterfang 3d ago

This was a problem in "Woke 1.0" basically written decided Oh she is a cool woman, she must be a lesbian.

Like being a Lesbian was the coolest a woman could get. At this point they are just writing men and changing the gender last minute.

Another annoyances I have is if in playing a female character and have limited romance options.

Like why can't I play Lara Croft and save the guy and have a hot romance? That doesn't make Lara lesser.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

Woke 1.0 shot itself in the abdomen from the start. Woke 2.0 is looking like they didn't really learn the lessons. I'm looking forward to Super MAGA powered by AI... /s

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u/myrmonden 3d ago

Yep it called Bokuphobia.

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u/Phaeron-Dynasty 3d ago

I have a pretty tomboy heavy cast in a story I'm still working out the courage to write, but only one of them is a confirmed Lesbian. I think my love od the tomboy archetype helped me to explore the different flavors and accidentially saved me from the butch=lesbian trap, or at least the worst of it. 

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u/iftheronahadntcome 3d ago

I only realized I'm not very gender conforming at all this year, and what it would mean for me in dating. I've leaned into it and I think I'm already liking it much more, but it really has shone a light on how much people really, really don't believe in other ways of representing your femininity. Even a few years ago when I decided I wanted to start gaining muscle (I love people like Lean Beef Patty and want her physique myself), my boyfriend at the time (thank God he's not now) was like, "I guess I could be okay with muscle :)" as if that was his choice.

Similarly, when I showed someone I was considering to be my trainer Serena Williams as body goals (but with the caveat that I wanted to be smaller than her, but definitely have my muscles pop like her), she goes, "Girl, I won't do that to you." Serena is beautiful and accomplished and talented... I was so insulted to hear her say that. People treat her like she's ugly when she's a whole woman, just with muscle. Why do we have to be waif-thin and frail for people to leave us alone?

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u/FeeRemarkable886 3d ago

I like my ladies strong, independent and confident.

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u/Equivalent-Rush-1479 3d ago

Exactly! I once had a friendship end because I was accused to being a bigot. My crime?

I said that I don’t understand nonbinary because it reinforces the dichotomy between men and women. Because it draws a line around what is a man and what is a woman and then adds a third category.

Now, that is certainly a point to disagree with. But I tried to explain: I don’t disagree with being nonbinary. I disagree with gender, period. There are no masculine traits. There are no feminine traits. There are traits. And the sooner we stop associating them with a specific gender, the sooner we get to actual equality.

But I guess that makes me a bigot. The little girl who grew up as 100% a ‘tomboy’ and just wanted to be seen as a person first instead of a masculine woman is the problem. 👍🏾

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u/Sea_Macaron_8789 3d ago

Hopefully this does not get deleted, Arceus forbid people bring their own experiences Online.

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u/Equivalent-Rush-1479 3d ago

I mean, we’re already being downvoted.

Apparently questioning why we categorize people at all is problematic

I just don’t see the point of gender, period. Be you. That’s enough.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

Dead internet. Floods of bots who up/downvote and comment to flood the internet with their propaganda. The few remaining humans are largely hyper polarized into extremism. Any sensible, rational human is a minority of a minority.

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u/TheRissingHootHoot 3d ago

I disagree and Idk that just sounds one step from saying "why are trans people transitioning when they can just be gender non conforming" it's not that simple, gender is not purely a social construct there's an internal component to it too. im speaking from experience i act and dress masculine and no one makes a deal about it and yet I still feel body and gender dysphoria, why? It's because in the eyes of society im still just a "tomboy" "a woman" and even typing that fills me with an indescribable pain the total incongruity between what my brain tells me i should be versus what society tells me is painful 

.  categorising is part of human nature it's how we understand the world around us and while I agree that it's a spectrum and is forced on people too much but the existence of the category isn't the problem it's the enforcement of it and you're also forgetting that there are people out there(mostly trans people)who do enjoy being man and women and find comfort in "traditional" gender roles and to deprive so many people of the comfort they find in gender for the sake of 'equality' is just kinda cruel and weirdly sexist

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 3d ago edited 3d ago

I really don’t think for the Rugrats reboot the intention was to go “tomboyish women are all gay”. More like… they wanted to introduce a gay character amongst the parents and Howard was such a nothing character (and I watched the show a lot, he was way less prominent than literally every other parent character) that Betty was the most obvious choice to shake things up.

Stu and Dede are iconic.

Drew and Charlotte are major foils for those characters, what with Drew being Stu’s brother and Charlotte being whom Angelica takes after more.

Chaz is very famously a widower who eventually remarries Kira.

Phil and Lil are also clearly “Betty’s children” and don’t really seem to be designed with Howard in mind.

Like, any other major relationship shake up in the parent cast would have necessitated more changes.

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u/ContessAlin78 3d ago

One of my favorite parts from 'But I'm a cheerleader' is when the masc girl goes off about not being a lesbian.

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u/molotovzav 3d ago

I find this to be really odd. My mom was a tom boy growing up, my MIL was too. I wasn't really a tom boy per se but I grew up dressing girly but all my interested were male dominated at the time (dnd, video games in general, fantasy and sci fi). I've known so many tomboys and people in my life who did exactly fit the gender mold but we're still straight. Hollywood literally cannot imagine that. Cannot imagine a tomboy who is straight, of a slightly effiminate man who is straight. But I've known both types of people my whole life. I blame it on the fact these writers come from increasingly smaller pools of backgrounds and barely interact with normal people who aren't Hollywood types. A lot of writing is regressive now instead of progressive, but they try to pass it off as progressive. Like oh were showing stories of X people, then they exclude mixed race people or exclusively show only mixed race people. It's bizarre.

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u/TheBSQ 3d ago

A take that I’m scared to articulate cuz I think I’ll phrase it poorly is I feel like the current version of this is to make them trans.

If this character was born a girl but likes stereotypically “male” hobbies, haircuts, and clothes, then just make then they should identify as male and be represented as a trans man, not a “tomboy.”

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u/_demello 3d ago

I felt angry when the sister in Athipical cheated on her boyfriend with a girl because she was firmguring herself out. Ok, bi/lesbian girl has her moment and it matters, I'm not gonna take that from the people that enjoyed it. But I thought it was so cool to finally have a tomboy girl that wasn't a lesbian in a mainstream show that is frustrated me when she was lesbian all along.

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u/boblasagna18 3d ago

Its the complete other side who thinks all lesbians/trans men are all tomboys that pushed this change

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u/AstarionsTherapist39 3d ago

So many men are absolutely gagging for Karlach and Minthara in Baldur's Gate 3, but go off, Hollywood.

Edit: typo

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u/Quixotic_Tendency 3d ago

Lilyhammer does a great job with this. One of the main characters (Torgeir) gets a huge crush on a tomboy that works at the bar he manages. Everyone tells Torgeir she's gotta be gay but it turns out she likes men, and especially him.

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u/Ver3232 3d ago

Happens all the time in fandoms too. Any slightly non traditionally feminine female character or any woman in a position of strength/power? Instantly headcanoned as a lesbian and there’s a lot of shit flung towards those who don’t agree.

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u/SethCyclone 3d ago

Not gonna lie, Numbah 5 and Kim Possible were major influences in my taste in women. Tomboy are the absolute best 

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u/JustAMinah 3d ago

yall dunno I felt like this for a long time, and is why I felt at 11, I should be more tomboy because I already felt not feminine, ugly, and no guy would ever like me because I wasn't "feminine" enough. and I hated being assumed a lesbian as a teen because of my appearance.

I do identify as pan/demi and gender non conforming, but I feel similar to utena in the sense of, wanting to be "prince like" but still being a woman and having interests in masculinity (which can be presented in any person)

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u/consequentlydreamy 3d ago

It’s how I felt for the sex and the city reboot. Never watched it but come on. Miranda is a workhorse but that doesn’t necessarily mean for men. If anything I could’ve seen her going through a celibacy phase and the girls trying to convince her or having a hard time talking because they feel out etc

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u/grantgarden 3d ago

As a lifelong tomboy, I resonate with this big time. Anytime I see a character "like me" chances are she's lesbian. Or single.

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u/PuzzleheadedGift2450 3d ago

That's my issue i feel like society doubled down on separating into roles. Tomboy doesn't really matter it is just a girl who does traditionally masculine things it doesn't have to fit into any other category or label 

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u/Max_Chillin420 3d ago

I for one, love strong masculine women. I think there should be way more in fiction and irl, especially if they push me around and be playfully mean to me.

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u/OrdinaryIntroduction 3d ago

I'm glad more people are beginning to call this out, because I remember that so many would accuse someone of being homophobic if they tried to note that this ends up being a different kind of sexism. On another note I'm also happy to see smaller groups pushing back on male affection just actually being platonic and nothing more. As an aromantic I find the romantics of any background really annoying because their so desperate to get rep to the point they'll talk down on anyone with a different viewpoint.

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u/Atmosphere_Master 3d ago

Bio essentialism and gender stereotyping but left wing style

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u/Atmosphere_Master 3d ago

Bio essentialism and gender stereotyping but left wing style

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u/asdfmovienerd39 2d ago

Nothing is more alienating than the seething resentment people have for interpreting characters as lesbian.

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u/knave-marionette 2d ago

i know right lmao like god forbid lesbians see themselves in characters. i promise there are no shortage of women who like men in media 🙄

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u/ilove-whenwomen 2d ago

As a bi girl I hate this. Presentation has nothing to do with sexuality. Masc girls can be straight, and feminine ones can be lesbian.

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u/Educational-Wish-44 2d ago

Yeah. I definitely didn't like that they made her a lesbian. Not because I have anything against lesbians, but because it is insulting to woman that they can't be strong, independent and heterosexual. Just like I hate how they insist on making virtually every effeminate male character gay.

Not all lesbians are butch, many are just as feminine and dainty as any "typical" heterosexual woman. Not all heterosexual women are feminine and dainty. Not all gay guys are effeminate, and not all straight men need to be "manly".

It's a whole big clump of related stereotypes that I hate, and doubly hate when media ends up reinforcing them.

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u/Ghenghis-Chan 2d ago

Heaven forbid a non-conforming woman is allowed to be interested in men.

Thats literally the vast majority of them already. 99% of "Tomboy/strong female characters" are straight because that is and always has been seen as more acceptable to audiences than actual butch lesbians. As seen by characters like Betty existing without controversy for like 30 years before they actually started putting butches in cartoons.

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u/knave-marionette 2d ago

people have become so chronically online that the take “let women like men” is being made 100% unironically

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u/squidz3n 2d ago

I've been a tomboy my entire life; very tomboy. I'm also straight and have never struggled with my identity or sexuality. But even saying I'm straight isn't enough. Either people ask me if I'm "sure," or they tell me maybe I haven't accepted it yet. Then I get told I'll never find a man if I keep looking and dressing the way I do. And this is all by people are meant to be progressive.

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u/TomdeHaan 2d ago

I loved it in Dungeons and Dragons when the strong female axe-warrior's great love was a little halfing who looked after the home and eventually left her for another strong female axe-warrior.

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u/ironangel2k4 2d ago

Thank you. It has been both refreshing and frustrating to see in my adult life that women who looked and acted like I did in high school have more social acceptance. When I was in school the assumption was that I was a closet lesbian because I was loud, cut my hair short, and ran track. I like to exercise! And long hair gets in the way! I still like men!

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u/Throngmar 3d ago

As a straight man who likes tomboys, muscle mommies, and tough women, I find this trope irritating. At best they can be bisexual, but I find the idea that women who aren’t traditionally feminine must love pussy kinda reductive

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u/ShiningTachyon 3d ago

The chronically online Egg Irl mfs getting mad at the creator of KoG because the GNC character wasn't trans...