[Hated Trope] Crossovers that fundamentally don’t understand the source material

[u/Calvinball08]

When a crossover basically does the exact opposite of what the source material clearly lays out because the creators clearly just don’t care about the source material at all.

Emil - Dead by Daylight

The one that inspired this post. Emil as a character is the most hopeful, optimistic, and kind character in the entire NieR series, maybe in all of Yoko Taro’s games (maybe aside from Yonah). His goal is to help as many people as he possibly can and even when he goes through immense suffering he always comes out the other side ready to keep on helping people.

Then Dead by Daylight adds him as a killer skin, because “he looks creepy.” You know, the aspect of the character that’s his biggest struggle, that causes him to be scared of how people will judge him, and that makes him hate himself. That’s what we’ll base our entire concept on. Genius idea.

Iron Giant - Ready Player One

Technically you could argue that it’s not an example because it’s just a part of the game and Wade is the one misunderstanding the source material. To that I raise you that this is actually an in universe example of the trope, with the game including the Iron Giant as a crossover where you can use him as a weapon, thereby misunderstanding the source material.

Also it’s probably the filmmakers completely misunderstanding the source material/not caring as well.

[u/jtaulbee]

I don't think that "no prep" is accurate. Wade had dedicated his life to mastering every video game that could potentially be part of the hunt. Is it unrealistic that someone spreading their time across so many games could get a perfect score on Pac Man? Sure, but I'd hardly call it a random, unplanned effort.

[u/LazyEights → u/jtaulbee]

Sure, and I'm sure he would have had played Pac-man as part of that.

But it's roughly the equivalent of "I go to the rock climbing gym every day. So, feeling a bit overwhelmed by everything going on in my life, I decided to relax by solo climbing Everest without oxygen".

[u/MobofDucks → u/LazyEights]

And it is still more believable than being a perfect standin for a character in a Wargames.

[u/Fantastic_Bug1028 → u/MobofDucks]

that part wad so dumb, it was actually impressive

[u/Cute_Ad3696 → u/MobofDucks]

Could you explain that one?

[u/MobofDucks → u/Cute_Ad3696]

There isn't actually that much to explain. One of the trials was literally just being the cast of Wargames and perfectly timing each action and line. They swapped this for the Shining setting.

The trials were just waaaaayyyyy different to the movie. First one was beating the Tomb of Annihilation (I think, one of the "Tomb of" Playbooks for the first dnd version) and the defeating the Arch-Lich in the end in an arcade game of Joust. On a planet in the sim that was literally just used for school.

[u/Cute_Ad3696 → u/MobofDucks]

That seems significantly easier than the packman one. Still nuts, but significantly less nuts

[u/MobofDucks → u/Cute_Ad3696]

I think you are misjudging how perfect the roles in Wargames had to be played. No breaks, no redos. Just 1-on-1 what you saw on screen including everything. Just scene after scene without extra transitions. Intonation, body language, everything.

People have played perfect pac-man games. No one has done that.

[u/Cute_Ad3696 → u/MobofDucks]

I have no idea the tolerances involved or how much the full dive tech helped.
But even if the tolerances were, “good enough to literally replace the film”
And the tech help was only “enough to mostly compensate for being different height/weight etc” that would still be about a quarter the time invested.

Admittedly the packman one only really requires perfection after the first hour or two, and only requires one person to be perfect.

[u/ServantOfTheSlaad → u/jtaulbee]

The problem is, many games have specific things you need to learn. Having good aim will help in every shooter game, but being good at Call of Duty won't make someone good at Overwatch and visa versa. Just mastering video games means it will still take a lot of effort to get a perfect score on Pacman

[u/extinct_cult → u/jtaulbee]

Reminds me of that NCIS (or one of its spin offs) scene, where the cops find some super nerd, who reportedly has the high score in every online game, ever.

Lets leave out the fact that games don't really have high scores anymore, whatever. I remember some dude completed every achievement in WoW (in 2018) and had around 3 years /played between their characters.

But now do that in Everquest. And Guild Wars. And Elder Scrolls Online. And every korean grindfest game. And on and on...

[u/Forsworn91 → u/extinct_cult]

its common, hollywood and "old media" have a VERY condescending view of gaming, thinking everything still has a scoreboard like its the freaking 80s

[u/fraidei → u/Forsworn91]

Yeah, you constantly see that when kids play and their parents ask to put down the game they always say "but I was close to beat my record..."

[u/Forsworn91 → u/fraidei]

I can remember someone who was supposed to be playing WOW, and “pausing”.

There was a very old ZP video that went on a rant about it, how the film/tv industry treated gaming like they didn’t know what they where doing, how gaming studios would seemingly welcome the “big boys” with a “ oh thank you so much, until you turned up with your cliche plots and predictable actions, we didn’t know what we where doing! Oh thank you great teachers!”

[u/Durzaka → u/jtaulbee]

First, Wade is a child. And the egg hunt isnt even that old at the start of the story.

There are hundreds if not thousands of games to play, on top of TV shows to consume, movies to watch.

Yes, I am sure he has played pac man as it is one of the more formative games in gaming history. But to play a perfect game is something that requires dedication. Practice. You literally cannot just sick down and do it, as evidence of how many people have accomplished it at this point.

[u/upekkha_sati → u/Durzaka]

The point of the story though is he is 'the one' of his universe. The most nerdy autistic guy who is just has all the required skills/talents to achieve the story goal. It's like saying oh so Frodo just happened to be able to resist the rings influence? Or Luke Skywalker just happens to be able to use the force to guide his missile? Ya, that's what makes it a story, good stories aren't about normal average things happening regularly as we would expect from average people.

[u/Durzaka → u/upekkha_sati]

But hes literally not the one. Every one of his friends is just as talented as he is. He just happened to find the one clue and be lucky each time. The moment he does something EVERYONE is able to do it immediately after him. His skill isnt what makes him special.

[u/upekkha_sati → u/Durzaka]

Oh I was talking about the book. The movie as well because he figures it out first. But in the book it focuses a lot more on him being a very dedicated gamer and having issues being detached from other people.

[u/Durzaka → u/upekkha_sati]

No, im talking about the book as well.

He isnt the first to figure out the Lich locationmodule, Artemis does it first. He was lucky that he was used to being second player, not skill based.

He's also beaten to other keys/tasks as well.

[u/upekkha_sati → u/Durzaka]

But he beats the joust game on his first try, playing a perfect game. And that was without even knowing for sure it would mean anything. And Artemis couldn't do it, she had tried and failed. The idea of the story isn't that whatshisface is cool/good, just that he is most like the creator and that was what the creator wanted/planned, that only a guy like him would be able to do it.

[u/LazyEights → u/upekkha_sati]

He doesn't "play a perfect game" of Joust.

It's a Best of 3 PvP match with the lich and he loses the first game pretty badly, winning the second two matches after adjusting his strategy.

He's clearly good at video games, but thousands of people after him were also able to quickly beat the Joust match so it's not like his 2-1 victory is nearly on the same level as something that less than a dozen people have ever accomplished before in over 40 years of trying.

[u/upekkha_sati → u/LazyEights]

What do you want me to say? He did it. He did it first. He figured it out. That's the way the story was written. He's the protagonist who does the protagonisms. That's how stories go. People only point this out in stories they don't like, but that's how almost all stories go, a special guy does something special and that's what the story is. The story is he does the thing and he does the thing in the story. Doesn't he do the thing? He does right? Because that's the story. No he isn't superman because this isn't a superman story, he's the guy from this story who does the things this story is about him doing. He's the guy that this story is about.

[u/LazyEights → u/upekkha_sati]

You are saying that his joust match and his Pac-man perfect game are comparable accomplishments and I want you to acknowledge that they are not.

You presented the joust match as a "perfect game" to make that comparison. That was a lie. I would prefer you not lie because that makes it seem like you're not making a genuine attempt to understand my point of view.

It is how the story was written. And these kinds of stories play a balancing act where the main character should be gifted and talented within an acceptable suspension of disbelief, lest they risk becoming a Mary Sue who seems inexplicably good at everything with minimal effort. That's bad storytelling.

Winning a Joust match 2-1 against a powerful opponent on your first try after identifying specific weaknesses in their game is an impressive, believable show of skill for a gifted gamer presented as a dedicated everyman.

Setting a perfect score that has only been accomplished 11 times before by people who dedicated years of their lives to achieving it, and doing so casually on your first try having not even specifically prepared to play that game for the day is an inhuman accomplishment that isn't justified by the skill demonstrated by our dedicated everyman previously, and that's enough to break suspension of disbelief and take me out of the story.

Do you understand the difference?

[u/robolew → u/upekkha_sati]

I think the issue is that having him no-prep these things actually devalues the achievement of doing them. Getting a perfect score in pacman isn't like turning up to a 100m track and beating the world record. That could be done if you stretch your belief enough to say "oh he's really fast, even though hes barely trained, he's just a fast runner".

It would be more like reciting the entire King James bible... without having read it before. Just sort of guessing the next words because you're that good at reading. It doesn't feel like a skill it just feels like magic

[u/Durzaka → u/upekkha_sati]

Again, he only wins at joust through luck, not skill. He thinks hes thrown off by being player one so asks to be player 2 and then ends up winning.

Then as a parting tip he suggests Artemis tries as player 2 as well, and then she also beats it on her next try. The game was rigged and he lucked I to the solution.

[u/upekkha_sati → u/Durzaka]

It wasn't luck, because it's not real. Again, it's a story. Whatever happens, that's how it's supposed to happen. If being player 2 is what it took to win and he's the guy who wants to be player 2 then that's why he wins and that's why the story was about him. That's what makes him 'the chosen one' in this story. It could be cause he's left handed or cause his parents were murdered or because of 'the force', it's whatever the story says is the reason for him being 'the special' guy, that's just literally and literarily how it's written. That's how all stories about 'the special' guy are written. He could just be jesus and sure jesus is lucky he is just jesus or he wouldn't be jesus. Like, that's just how stories work.

[u/Durzaka → u/upekkha_sati]

You seem to be under a false presumption that I dont understand why a story is about the character it is about.

Of course Wade is the main character, he is going to be the one winning shit, and having all of the right answers. I knew what story I was signing up for. That doesnt mean it should just be nonsense and unearned. There has to be a level to this, thats how suspension of disbelief works. if you push it too far, you break it.

I can suspend disbelief for a lot. I have no issue with how he won the first key. But nothing that happens has ANYTHING to do with being a Chosen One, which is a very specific trope not just any story about a specific main character being the hero. He wins the game of Joust. He earns it, by being a little lucky, a little clever, and some real video game skill.

The idea that he just RANDOMLY plays a perfect game of pac man, which is one of the hardest things you can do in all of video game history (without giving yourself random restrictions) is fucking beyond stupid.

Again, no one here cares that Wade is a special little boy. Thats the story. Cline could have made it ANY possible video game achievement. He chose to make one that takes an insane amount of time and effort from people who dedicate everything to it, not just some guy who spent 6 years learning ALL of the content we see in the book (which in itself is fucking hilarious when you consider how much time he even has to consume all of the content talked about in the book, remember 6 years).

[u/Arbusc → u/jtaulbee]

It’s a world where the entire planet is chronically online because besides growing food and getting clean water there’s literally nothing fucking else to do.

It would be weird if there wasn’t a bunch of random people getting perfect scores on arcade games, plus no-one knows just what will activate a key or not so any random niche could suddenly be a, pun intended, game changing move.