Acknowledging that torture is not an efficient form of interrogation

[u/Character_Growth_397]

Torture is often shown as an effective way of interrogation, with writers forgetting one key detail: People lie. AAMOF, it's likely that they will lie and give you untrue information to not be tortured

The Last of Us - Joel has an interrogation map where he'd make two different people point to something on a map. If they both pointed the same thing it meant the info was true. Very often this wasn't the case

Mass Effect 2 - Garrus points out that torture is not effective because victims will lie to make the torture stop

[u/ChemistryActive6957]

Torture is actually reliable under exactly two circumstances. If you can quickly and easily verify the information which is very situational, like getting the password to a device out of someone because you can type the answer in and check in a few seconds. Or if you have a completely reliable method of detecting lies which requires literal magic, meaning torture is really only viable in fantasy settings since polygraphs and other technological methods of lie detection rely on vital signs and the vitals of someone in that much pain are already fucked and the data is useless.

[u/Anoobis100percent → u/ChemistryActive6957]

Even the first is no guarantee, because torture is well known for making people misremember out of stress and/or fucking up their memories. Like, to the point where afterwards the victim themselves might not be sure what is and isn't true. So, even in the optimal scenario you described, you might still not get your code AND might cause the victim to forget it as well, ruining any chance you had of getting past that code.

[u/CapableCollar → u/ChemistryActive6957]

This exact post keeps getting repeated on reddit despite even organizations like the CIA disagreeing.  Torture confuses people, they don't know what they actually remember as the truth and will just give answers.  Even if you can easily and immediately verify information tortured people are not in a good mental state, it is why it is very easy to pass anti-torture training organizations and it's basically just hazing these days.

Reliable information comes from things like deception and bribery.

[u/human_folly → u/[deleted]]

You're kind of ignoring what adrenaline and panic does to the human brain.

[u/human_folly → u/[deleted]]

Adrenaline shouts now, now, NOW! It makes it difficult to remember your own name let alone something that is stored deep in procedural memory like a password.

[u/Dull-Culture-1523 → u/[deleted]]

So your reasoning is that torture works because you can wait until they're no longer being tortured to offset the fact that torturing people doesn't work.

As for your earlier question, yes, you are being very generous.

[u/human_folly → u/[deleted]]

Which is the point of this whole thread, no? Inflicting pain on people (or putting them under fear of immediate pain) is just a bad way to get information. Threats, deception, blackmail, and bribery all work much better.

[u/CapableCollar → u/[deleted]]

A lot of people become spiteful after being hit.  Intelligence gathering personnel often seek to find common ground with the person they are attempting to get information from instead.

[u/CapableCollar → u/[deleted]]

Have you ever been in an emergency situation where you needed to do something simple like chest compressions, use an epi-pen, or even recall a simple number and it took you longer than it should to remember such a simple task?

[u/weeeeelaaaaaah → u/ChemistryActive6957]

You missed quite possibly the most common use of torture: it's extremely reliable for obtaining false confessions. If, for example, you need to throw someone in prison to close the case on a crime ordered by the fearless leader.

[u/Special_Cicada6968 → u/weeeeelaaaaaah]

Or if you are looking for witches...

[u/IrishLad-1194 → u/weeeeelaaaaaah]

insanely prevalent in some US states because of informal incentivised quotas on arrests leading to convictions.

[u/Aziranis → u/IrishLad-1194]

Not only in US, it is used by every agency around the world. Everyone is doing it. Everyone was doing it since humans appointed other humans to "keep the peace"

[u/Character_Growth_397 → u/ChemistryActive6957]

I mean, even if you were sitting in front of a police officer interrogating your heart rate would be going through the roof even if he didn't lay a finger on you

[u/Anoobis100percent → u/Character_Growth_397]

Yup. Anyone tries to tell you they've got you hooked up to a functional lie detector, you call their lying ass out then and there.

[u/ChemistryActive6957 → u/Character_Growth_397]

Yeah sure, polygraphs work best with a subject who doesn’t know much about interrogation and with an interrogator who knows how to use actually effective techniques. What I’m saying is that if you are torturing someone then the baseline vitals you took before beginning are useless because a: their vitals would have been elevated out of fear and anxiety and b: now that you have been hurting them for a while their heart rate and breathing are going to be even faster and it will be almost impossible to tell if a change is due to them lying or the pain and fear.

[u/extinct_cult → u/ChemistryActive6957]

Polygraphs don't work at all; there's a reason why they're not admissible evidence. It's because it's a pseudoscience.

[u/yawninggatorade → u/ChemistryActive6957]

Within the context of political and military prisoners, torture will be used and cross-referenced with the answers provided by other people, all separated from each other. Given enough time and physical/psychological damage, they can extort information from this collective with some credibility. Polygraphs and other technological methods however are very "low" on the credibility scale, I agree with that.

[u/PuritanicalPanic → u/yawninggatorade]

It's basically pointless still though.

If you have a guy and can do whatever you want with him for an extended period of time, the best way to extract info from him remains essentially befriending him. In a weird fucked up way.

You just sit him in a cell and reward compliance with small luxuries and social interaction. Then when he fails to comply, you take it all away and return him to monotony.

This works. Militaries know it works.

The purpose of the cruelty is not information extraction.

[u/yawninggatorade → u/PuritanicalPanic]

Sticks and carrots. Positive reinforcement is often used alongside a credible threat of physical/psychological torture, otherwise the rewards lose their meaning. This is often achieved with an initial breakdown progress and a constant feedback loop designed to make you compliant. Behave well and do something they want? Good job, you may ask for a glass of water. Lie, fail at a task or just piss them off? Off to the shit wall.

But yes the cruelty is often a goal in and of itself. It's fucked up and I'm not trying to defend it in the slightest. But I think the blanket statement that torture doesn't work "because people lie" is untrue becuase It's just more complicated than that.

At least that's how conduct after capture was taught for me.

[u/Different_Tadpole631 → u/yawninggatorade]

The stick is not being given a carrot. There is no indication that using torture as a stick works, and has even shown to be counter intutive.

[u/Dave13Flame → u/ChemistryActive6957]

I would argue that even in the first circumstance where say you need a password, it's easier to obtain the information if you don't actively make the target despise you because you inflicted pain on them.

An antagonistic target is more likely to act stubborn and try to drag out the clock, either just to spite you or hoping something will happen that could liberate them from the situation.

There's also a lot of preventative measures like 3 try lockouts on computers which can stall for even longer as you'd have to wait an arbitrary amount of time to try again, or under duress passwords that will destroy the computer or make it entirely inaccessible. There could also be alarms and stuff like that, which may or may not matter depending on the scenario.

[u/SpeedofDeath118 → u/ChemistryActive6957]

There's a third - extracting a confession. Hurt someone enough and they'll sign anything to make it stop.

[u/MathematicianFit431 → u/ChemistryActive6957]

The second situation isn't magic, it's called having multiple prisoners who know the same information.

Take them to separate rooms. Torture them for info. Information that lines up without them having communicated beforehand is the useful stuff.

[u/theSeaspeared → u/MathematicianFit431]

They will all be trying to say whatever they think you want to hear and this will occasionally line up without being in anyway useful.

[u/MathematicianFit431 → u/theSeaspeared]

Generally, it goes along with the first factor.

Tell me what your chain of command is. Tell me what your plans are.

If they all say the same thing then it's a higher level of credence although not necessarily true.

All intelligence operations always operate under a signal/noise ratio. You can't doubt every piece of information without paralyzing your operation, you can trust blindly without internalizing misinformation. It's degrees of credence until it's verified.

[u/theSeaspeared → u/MathematicianFit431]

Until they are all saying bunch of conflicting things at various points of prolonged torture

[u/yawninggatorade → u/theSeaspeared]

They want to hear the truth. Eventually you will therefore tell the truth.

[u/taeerom → u/yawninggatorade]

But you won't know if it is the truth or not. You will only know that it is something someone told you, but is contradicted by both something else they said, and something somoen else said.

Which one is the lie?

[u/MacroMicro1313 → u/taeerom]

The answer to that often comes with more complete investigation. If you've been on a problem for awhile you likely have atleast some idea of whats going on, just not specifics. You may have an outline of the truth but not the truth itself, so you have alittle bit of ability to say what seems plausible and logical as opposed to completely nonsensical. The hard part is due to the stress of torture the person may by lying without even really considering they are, saying whatever they think will make you stop and assuming things without actual knowledge. Hence why the threat of torture is really more valuable then torture itself as any knowledge actually gained will likely be misrepresented not even by conscious effort. Still you may be able to verify pieces of the truth they give, and use deduction to determine the relative likelihood of truths given. Ofcourse you could probably do this better with more nuanced interrogation and deception without physical torture.

[u/Brillek → u/MathematicianFit431]

Provided they haven't agreed on the lies beforehand.

[u/yawninggatorade → u/Brillek]

Given enough time it is just not possible to maintain a convincing lie between multiple people.

[u/nick113124 → u/Brillek]

While this can happen, it's a rare case on top of a rare case so... Very unlikely.

[u/yawninggatorade → u/nick113124]

Yeah, there are just too many details you can't rehearse in a group. Exactly what happened, who were there, who was standing where, what was X wearing, who did Y talk to first, etc. Even by yourself, it's just too many details to try and remember. That's why SERE courses often recommend an approach where you try to stick as close to the truth as possible while delaying and diverting from the actual important stuff. It's less of an "I'm not telling you shit" attitude and more of a "man I wish I could help you but I just don't know!" type of approach.

[u/SolemnEmberGames → u/Brillek]

Try keeping to a script when your balls are connected to jumper cables

[u/yawninggatorade → u/SolemnEmberGames]

Or when you and your friends balls are connected to jumper cables in different rooms and they're saying your friends are already spilling the beans and they'll up the voltage each time any of you tell different stories.

[u/NimanderTheYounger → u/ChemistryActive6957]

Good lord you cant spill secrets like that now everyone will know youre a professional torturer oh wait