CMV: The Jacob Geller response shows that no one really believes in restorative justice.

[u/Raspint]

TlDr: Restorative justice advocates only believe in restorative justice until it relates to an issue they feel an emotional connection with. Then they are as bloodthirsty as any retributionist.

I'm going to preface this by saying that I do not believe in or support restorative justice. I'm pro-retribution and I have been for a long time. But I am going to try and take the perspective of a restorative justice [I'll call it rest-just for the rest of this post.] And the response that I've seen from people who are normally pro rest-justice has been things like:

From what I've seen majority of people who are typically pro rest justice has been that Geller should be outcast and isolated, and that he be forever marked with 'I'm a rapist.'

But like, that's not rest-justice. What's the whole point of rest-justice? Anytime you talk with their advocates the core of their philosophy is, ultimately "how can we make sure this never happens again?"

Well, it never happened again.

Unless I'm mistaken, what we know is this:

Geller raped someone.

Geller owned up to this and acknowledged it as rape.

Geller faced consequences most of us (me included) consider too light.

Geller never raped anyone again.

Like, despite what you or I think of being suspended as a punishment for rape, whatever else occurred (and we don't know the details of what the victim said or wanted) this worked. You may not like it, but unless I'm mistaken about this, the slap on the wrist (and whatever else may have happened) made it so Geller understood his transgression, and never did it again. Not only that, but he's supported anti-sexual violence organizations and charities, right?

This honestly sounds like a success case for rest-justice. And I feel in my heart of hearts that if Geller had of committed an act of non-sexual violence, then this is how it would be talked about. Most of the people who want him completely deplatformed would be saying "we need to allow for rehabilitation. Offenders are not subhuman monsters, we should not dehumanize them. We can be better than that."

Yet it's not because apparently rest-justice doesn't matter for crimes that we consider 'bad.' Therefore it's useless idea that most people only pretend to support.

[u/RevolutionaryHole69]

A cashier isn't giving monologues to the people that see them. I feel like you are grasping at straws here. You have a point, albeit a small one. But when you draw false equivalencies like this, it's all falls apart.

People getting deplatformed not as punishment, but for the safety of others. The potential harm as a cashier is minimal.

[u/Raspint → u/RevolutionaryHole69]

People getting deplatformed not as punishment, but for the safety of others

That's true of people who are pushing a dangerous political message, like Alex Jones or Andrew Take. Geller is not pro-rape and has never pushed pro rape or misogynist content.

The idea he's being platformed for 'safety' is flat out wrong. No one is made less safe by Geller being on Nebula.

[u/RevolutionaryHole69 → u/Raspint]

Turning yourself into a famous person means that victims might see him, and it could re-traumatize them. Their right to not be re-traumatized is above his right to turn himself into a famous person.

Some rights are above other rights. Just the way it is.

[u/Raspint → u/RevolutionaryHole69]

Then you don't really believe in rest-just then.

and it could re-traumatize them

I say this as a victim of SA myself: That's their problem. The internet is a big place, if seeing Geller's face is traumatizing for the victim they can not watch it.

What you're saying is basically "Yes, I believe in rest justice and that offenders can return to society. So long as they are isolated, live quiet lives, and hide under the covers to prevent the chance that their victim might see their face/hear their voice."

Youtube is the modern version of a public form in the market place. Geller has a right to go to that form to speak his mind and sell his art (his essays) like everyone. If people like his stuff and want to buy it (subscribe) that's their decision.

Some rights are above other rights. Just the way it is.

You believe in retribution like me. The difference is I have no problem saying that people like Geller are barely human animals and should be treated as such.

[u/RevolutionaryHole69 → u/Raspint]

YouTube is not what you think it is. It's a private company. Get real.

[u/Raspint → u/RevolutionaryHole69]

Yeah. We've privatized the public forum. Doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.

[u/Raspint → u/RevolutionaryHole69]

>A cashier isn't giving monologues to the people that see them.

People have a right to do that in a public form. Even rapists.

>I feel like you are grasping at straws here.

No, you are. You're ignoring that the very same "I, as a rape survivor, have the right to never come into contact with a rapist forever" also applies to the checkout lane.

So cashier's don't give monologues. So what?

[u/RevolutionaryHole69 → u/Raspint]

I think you're missing the point people are making here. The reason people, especially public figures, get canceled after things like this happen is so that we don't re-traumatize victims. While the person released from jail does have the right to live the fullest life possible after they have paid their debt to society, the rights of victims is above that, and we as a society have determined it's the way we want to operate. Some rights are more alienable than others. There is a hierarchy of rights. Victim rights are placed above the rights of those released from jail.

[u/Raspint → u/RevolutionaryHole69]

While the person released from jail does have the right to live the fullest life possible

But you (general you) don't think that. Producing and sharing one's art is a part of living a full life. If you deny a person that you are doing the very dehumanization that I (openly and happily) want to do to offenders.

like this happen is so that we don't re-traumatize victims.

Look. If a rape victim is re-traumatized by her attacker being on YouTube, they can not watch them. My point I've had this whole post is that youtube is the modern version of the public forum in the market place. Everyone has a right to go there, even rapists.

The only time I'm really for deplatforming is when those people are pushing dangerous political rhetoric that will destroy the world. Geller didn't do that.

Victim rights are placed above the rights of those released from jail.

Again: Even offenders have rights. Rest-just believes this. There are limits to how much influence victims should have over the lives of their attackers, and this is crossing that line.

If a victim said "I want him to live a quiet life, in a quite job, where no one ever sees him!" The victim needs to accept that's not within their rights to demand.

[u/Thelmara → u/Raspint]

You're ignoring that the very same "I, as a rape survivor, have the right to never come into contact with a rapist forever" also applies to the checkout lane.

Geller didn't get kicked off of Nebula because Nebula users have a right not to see a rapist in their content - there is no such right. He got kicked off of Nebula because Nebula makes money based off of people paying them for a product, and Nebula doesn't want people to stop paying because there's a "reformed"-rapist on staff.

[u/Raspint → u/Thelmara]

Yeah. And that's because those people who would be angry at Nebula don't believe in rest-just.