Rewatch Hikaru no Go 25th Anniversary Rewatch: Episode 23 Discussion
The Twenty-Third Match: The Room of Yuugen
◄ Episode 22 | Index | Episode 24 ►
Series Information:
Streams:
Purchaseable:
On Apple TV or Prime Video.
Proverb of the Day:
Tsumego of the Day:
Today's theme: Capturing stones!
Questions of the Day:
- Should Zama show more respect for Touya Akira, or is his "I'm superior to you" attitude warranted? Likewise, should Akira show more respect for his senior?
- Do you have, or did you have a dream career you wanted to pursue?
- Bonus for first-timers! Predictions? Who's going to win, Zama or Akira? Keep in mind that Akira is getting a handicap of a 5.5 point reverse komi!
Rewatchers, remember there are first-timers present!
Be careful not to spoil anything that hasn't happened yet in the show. If you wish to discuss something in the future, make sure to hide it under spoiler tags.
Spoiler tags work like this:
[Hikaru no Go]>!Sai is cute.!<
Which becomes: [Hikaru no Go]Sai is cute.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 13d ago
First-Timer no Go, subbed
Damn, and yet Akira passed his exams despite missing a round?
Oh boy. Akira’s still going to beat him though, isn’t he?
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 12d ago
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u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer 13d ago
first time baduker hikaru no go to the polls
hurry up Hikaru
I wonder if Ogata is trying to motivate Akira because he himself sees Akira as a rival
lefthanded pros at a disadvantage
ittl be fun to get a sense of how good Toya actually is with this match
my solutions for yesterdays tsumego
B22-1: E2
B22-2: D18
I22-1: E2
I22-2: C2
A22-1: A2
A22-2: F2
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u/Biokabe 12d ago
lefthanded pros at a disadvantage
Actually no, despite how it looks. If you look really closely, the armrest is actually detached. If you want, you can simply move the armrest to the other side.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 12d ago
I just checked the screenshot u/Shimmering-Sky posted, and you're right! The chairs are even cooler now.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 12d ago
I wonder if Ogata is trying to motivate Akira because he himself sees Akira as a rival
That's an interesting idea. I figured he was just trying to fan the flames of Akira and Hikaru's rivalry by motivating them both at the same time.
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u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer 12d ago
He’s investing in the Heated Rivalry potential early
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 12d ago
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u/TrekkiMonstr 12d ago
Why would you want your rival to get stronger? I think it's clearly the latter. Or rather, trying to spur Touya on using Hikaru
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 12d ago
Having a strong rival helps both sides to improve and compete at their best.
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u/MaskOfIce42 https://anilist.co/user/MaskOfIce 12d ago
First Timer, Subbed
Finally caught back up after a busy week, pity I was too late to comment on some of the previous episodes because they really were interesting, but I shall limit it to this episode for now lol.
I have been really enjoying how we see Hikaru's progress, how at the beginning he is hopelessly outmatched compared to the other Insei, but he does get his first victory and it feels like we can see him progressing here. Honestly a lot of this is reminding me of March Comes in Like a Lion, except that started later in the story and was essentially following Akira the entire time. And Kiriyama is much more reserved than Akira is.
Speaking of Akira, I do find it very interesting that seeing Hikaru as an Insei does still fire him up, even if he tries to deny it. They are rivals, just in a different way than some would say. Akira seems to truly loathe Hikaru for just..... everything, and I do kinda get it, and as such he wants to prove that he can't be caught up to.
It will be fun to see how Akira's debut match goes. Like it's set up narratively that Akira is going to end up winning, although honestly if he does, that does seem a little bizarre given Zama seems to be planning to go at him with everything. I think it will be a good game though, not a complete blowout.
Question 1: This gets tricky with knowing Japan's hierarchcical structure and how prevalent that is, and I'm looking at it from a western perspective. I think Zama is right at least to feel like Akira is no match, even if that may be a bit overconfident, but also the disdain he shows does feel much. Similarly, I don't think Akira was wrong in anything he said, that all felt more "I'm not going to worry about your rank, it's just a match to me", which I think is fair.
Question 2: I don't think I ever really had a dream career. Maybe being an astronaut, but I never really pursued it that much, although I do still have a love of space. (Also resonating a bit since the last anime I finished before joining the rewatch was Planetes)
Question 3: I guess I answered this in my response, and I stand by that, even with the reverse komi. Yeah it's basically an 11 point advantage if I understand reverse komi correctly (meaning Akira is black and getting the komi, right?) but I dunno, I feel like it still feels like Zama should win, although it will be close. But it wouldn't shock me if Akira did win.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 12d ago
I find it weird and unlikely that Ouza (?) would be uninterested and ignorant of the progress of the son of his own rival.
I wonder if Ogata showing Hikaru to Ogata made Akira overly aggressive and lacking in deference to his superior.
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u/TrekkiMonstr 11d ago
Akira seems to truly loathe Hikaru for just..... everything, and I do kinda get it, and as such he wants to prove that he can't be caught up to.
I don't think "loath[ing]" is the right word. He's pissed, but I wouldn't describe it as anything personal -- they essentially don't know each other.
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u/wloff 13d ago
wloff's go corner #23
We've met a few title holders in the series so far. Touya-Meijin for one of course, and we met Honinbou title holder earlier, too. This week, we're introduced to Zama-Ouza.
There are seven Big Titles in Japanese professional go.
Traditionally, three of these have been considered the most prestigious:
- Kisei ("Go Saint")
- Meijin ("Master")
- Honinbou (name of the Honinbou family)
And the remaining slightly less prestigious:
- Ouza ("Throne")
- Tengen ("Origin of Heaven", or the name used for the center star point on the go board)
- Gosei (also "Go Saint", I guess)
- Jyuudan (10-dan)
All of these Big Titles are defended yearly by the currently reigning champion against a challenger who comes through a long series of qualifiers. Depending on the title, the qualifiers can be a relatively simple knockout tournament format, or a combination of knockouts and round-robin tournaments.
For the "Big Three" of Kisei, Meijin and Honinbou the final match has traditionally been a best-of-seven match where the games take place over two days, both players having a total of eight hours of thinking time. The smaller titles usually have best-of-five formats with only one-day matches.
This was the case until 2024, when the sponsor of the Honinbou title downscaled the tournament to be more in line with the other smaller titles.
The winner's prize was slashed from 28 million yen to 8.5 million, the traditional Honinbou League which was an eight-player round robin to decide the challenger was changed to a 16-player knockout tournament, and the title game was changed to best-of-five, single-day games. So today you can say there are only two "major" and five "minor" Big Titles.
The Honinbou title still holds the special prestige of being the oldest title in Japanese professional go, but it's still a bit sad.
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u/wloff 13d ago
Tsumego of the Day
Today's theme: Capturing stones!
Today's Go Go Igo! talked about ladders today, which is a little bit silly, since the anime itself introduced ladders way back in episode 2. But let's take this chance to have some problems about capturing stones; not just with ladders, but with all kinds of methods!
- Beginner 23-1. Black to play and capture two white stones.
Beginner 23-2. Black to play and capture three white stones.
Intermediate 23-1. Black to play and connect his groups by capturing some white stones.
Intermediate 23-2. Black to play and connect his groups by capturing some white stones.
Advanced 23-1. White to play and capture three black stones.
Advanced 23-2. Black to play and capture some white stones to save his four on the left.
Solutions to yesterday's problems:
Beginner 22-1
- After Black 1, White can't stop Black from making two eyes.
- Black 1 makes a dead eye shape. After White 2, Black is dead.
Beginner 22-2
- White 1 makes Black's eye at the top false, so Black is dead.
- If White plays at 1, Black 2 gives Black two real eyes and a live group.
Intermediate 22-1
- After Black connects at 1, his stones are alive.
- Capturing with Black 1 allows White to give double atari with 2.
Intermediate 22-2
- White jumps into Black's eye space with 1. If Black a, White b catches two stones.
- If White 1, Black 2 is enough to make life.
Advanced 22-1
Advanced 22-2
- White 1 forces Black to connect at 2 or lose stones on the side. After White 3, Black is dead.
- White 1 captures three stones, but Black can let them go and make life for the rest of the group with 2.
If you wish to discuss today's problems, please do so under spoiler tags, to give others the chance to solve them on their own! I'll be posting the solutions to today's problems tomorrow.
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u/Biokabe 12d ago
[ADV 23-1]White O-14. Black O-15 is the strongest resistance, but White Q-15 quashes that. Note, though, that this does depend on a ladder, so White can only play this way if Black doesn't have a ladder break somewhere around the right middle side of the board.
[Adv 23-2]G-5, the eye stealing tesuji, works here. If White F-5, Black F-4, White F-6, Black H-7. If White F-6, Black H-7, White G-6, Black H-6 and White is dead. If White G-6 (probably his strongest resistance), Black F-5, White F-6, Black H-6 and White is dead. This only works, though, because of the Black stone at H-9. Without that, the status would depend on a ladder and given how this group is facing it wouldn't be strange for there to be a ladder break in the upper right of the board. Because of this, after Black plays G-5, White is better off abandoning the two cutting stones and saving the pair of stones at F-7, forcing Black to complete the capture and live in gote. He could also simply tenuki and leave to status of those stones for later in the game, as White could easily extract a few good ko threats out of this position.
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 12d ago
[Beginner 23-1]E-13 D-13 D-12 E-15 F-15
[Beginner 23-2]B-2 D-2 E-2
[Intermediate 23-1]G-3 F-3 G-2 F-2 F-1
[Intermediate 23-2]This one's hard. F-15 E-15 F-14 E-14 E-13 E-16 G-16
[Advanced 23-1]O-14 O-15 Q-15 N-14 N-13 O-13 P-15 O-14 O-12 P-13 catches Black in a ladder. Very tricky, O-14 O-15 N-14 P-15 P-13 Q-15 loses the capturing race, and N-14 O-15 P-13 Q-15 P-15 Q-15 loses to snapback.
[Advanced 23-2]G-5 G-6 F-5 F-6 H-6 H-7 J-7 H-8 J-8
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u/TradingStoicly 12d ago
Why did they slash the prize money? That's a huge drop off. I can understand changing the format and the title match but that's a huge drop in prize money
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u/zambonijesus 12d ago
All the sponsors appear to be newspapers and considering the state of the industry maybe they decided it was just too expensive.
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u/wloff 12d ago
It is, but it's now similar to the other smaller titles, which all give out around 7-12 million to the winner. Kisei and Meijin are now the only huge prize titles left, Kisei winner gets 43 million and Meijin 33 million, if the information I found is still accurate.
The reason, I'm sure, was just to save money.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 12d ago
First-Time Viewer no Go
Ogata wanted to light a fire under Akira by showing him that Hikaru became an insei, but I wonder if he also had ulterior motives of doing the same for Hikaru by making sure he saw Akira there.
The Oza seemed insulted by Akira's carefree attitude towards their match, but I don't see why he'd be nervous? It basically sounds like a no stakes game - Akira is a newcomer to the pro scene in an exhibition match against the top player, so I don't think anyone really expects him to win. I would think treating it as a valuable learning experience with no pressure is the right mindset to have for this.
Not much to say about this one, but it was still a pretty good episode. Hikaru and Sai's reactions being totally in synch was cute.
Questions of the Day:
1) I didn't see Akira's comments as disrespectful, so although I do think people should be polite/respectful towards their competition opponents in general, the Oza seemed like he was being too uptight.
2) A few over the years, one of which was becoming an author. Still trying to see if that one can work out.
3) I watched this episode and the next one together, so I'll just say I was rooting for Akira of course!
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 12d ago
Rewatcher*
ep 23
- translator note!
- GO
- It sucks to play a sport that only allows a few top people to participate
- Akira is a pro now, but his spirit is did.
- NO OGATA DO NOT PUT HIKARU IN FRONT OF HIM
- OH SHIT HE STEPPED ON THE DIRTY FLOOR IN HIS SOCKS THAT'S LIKE THE APOCALYPSE
- Sankyuu
- Hikaru really is clueless about go still after a year
- TBH it doesn't sound like the Ouza is taking the match seriously, regardless of what room they are in.
- scratch that, he got some motivation
- That's a pretty generous handicap if I understood correctly
- to be continued....
Like Tsusui, you have to study for high school, or the pro exams, but not both....That one insei has stuck around longer than most. If you aren't going to make it, you have to switch tracks.
Do you get to pick up a complementary fan, like, bowling shoes, or something?
It's been 6 months and now Mai and Yuuki are playing on a full board.
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u/is-this-a-nick 12d ago
It sucks to play a sport that only allows a few top people to participate
Eh, its job. Everbody is free to do anything, but you need to convince people to pay you for it. You cannot just expect people to just give you money to play go.
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u/TradingStoicly 12d ago
First Timer Subbed
Man...Hikaru got snubbed by Akira there. It did light a fire under Akira though which is cool to see. I'm happy Hikaru is getting better too. He has a long way to go to get to the top of class one
QOTD: 1. Zama should definitely show more respect. I didn't even think Akira was being less respectful. He's just confident. Zama on the other hand is looking down on Akira that I hope he loses. Idc how good he is lol 2. My first dream was to be in the NBA. That didn't work out lol. Then it was to become a Physical Therapist. I achieved that which is great. Now my dream is to become a profitable trader. That's still in the making but I know I can get there 3. Akira...loses unfortunately but it'll be close! I think Zama will be more annoyed how close it is especially when he said he plans to crush him
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u/zambonijesus 12d ago
Rewatcher, manga reader, subs
Waya is so much like Hikaru, I'd like to know more about his background and how he ended up here. His way of befriending Hikaru is so like a teen boy where half the time he's insulting Hikaru.
Akira is pretending so hard to look like he isn't still obsessed with Hikaru. It's also interesting that Hikaru is just about the only character who isn't weird about Akira being good. Even the title holding professional player kind of holds Touya Meijin against Akira. In a way, the unusual way Hikaru met and interacted early on with Akira is beneficial here because he is one of the few who actually has seen the level of obsessiveness that Akira has and that he isn't just the fortunate product of having Touya Meijin as his father.
Q2: I mean I completed a PhD and then bailed on academia so I guess so.
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 12d ago edited 12d ago
Rewatcher
Straight losses for Shindou across the board (he's number 25)
This is a surprisingly complex statement by Waya. On a technical level he's correct, his playing strength is a lot closer to Akira's than Hikaru is. And yet, Hikaru feels genuinely closer to actually catching up to him than Waya does. Not to mention that Hikaru is much closer on a personal level.
I love his energy He's just a free spirit among these. I imagine he's stronger at intuiting where to play than at calculating sharp lines.
It's early!Kaga the second! There's certainly something to be said for his attitude of focussing on your immediate goals instead of getting lost in far-off future sauce.
The fact that you can only be an insei until you're 18 years old puts a lot of what we learned previously into perspective. Suddenly it makes so much sense that most pros make their debut as teenagers, when that's the only time in which you are able to really dedicate yourself to the study of the game without having passed the pro test—the fact that you can take that one until 30 notwithstanding. That cutoff has always struck me as kinda weird, though. If you're strong enough to compete at pro level, that should suffice, no?
Oh right, only three people pass the pro exam each time it's held. With that, the 30 year cutoff makes perfect sense—keeping the passers young means that they will remain in the system for a longer time.
Ah, so that's why Ogata sponsored Hikaru so readily. It Hikaru makes it, that would be a success already. But even if he doesn't, the mere fact that Hikaru is now an insei will spurn on Akira's own growth. It's a win-win situation for him as Akira's mentor!
I think that it's a very nice gesture that they let new pros have a ceremonial game in the title-match room. It's like they're saying "do your best so that you'll get to play in here again!" Even so, Akira handles the pressure of the situation outstandingly. He's used to playing with pros, of course, but where Japanese culture puts a lot of value on being able to read the atmosphere, there is certainly a strength to being able to actively ignore it. Even if it makes the experienced nice pro come after you seriously
Bonus for first-timers! Predictions? Who's going to win, Zama or Akira? Keep in mind that Akira is getting a handicap of a 5.5 point reverse komi!
This ain't a prediction but I just realised that they could also just do this by having the experienced pro play black but pass on their first turn, given that komi should theoretically be worth half an opening move.
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u/Biokabe 12d ago
Rewatcher
Not really a lot to say about this episode, it's really more of a "moving things along," episode than anything else. Still, it's nice seeing more growth and development out of Hikaru. When we first saw him, he didn't even have the patience to sit and watch a pro game being commented on by Go professionals. Now, he can't wait to finish up his game so that he can hurry up and watch Akira play an exhibition match.
(As an aside, I'm generally not a fan of fan-created romantic tensions and creations, especially when they assume a sexuality that hasn't actually been demonstrated on screen/page. Like, I'm not much of a fan of the OG slash pairing, Kirk/Spock. And generally I just dislike the assumption that the only reason you can have to care about someone deeply is because you want to become ahem romantically entangled with them. That said, the jokes with Akira and Hikaru write themselves. They are uniquely obsessed with each other.)
QotD 1: It's always nice to have respect for those below you, but at the same time, Zama is an established professional who holds a title. He's earned the right to his arrogance. And he does get a little too irked by Akira, who after all is just acting the way he has been taught to act. For Akira, the sanctity of the game of Go has been drilled into him, and I don't think he can conceive of a way to be other than to earnestly throw himself at his opponent with the full intention to win. If he loses, he loses, but he can do so with the satisfaction of knowing that he gave it his all and didn't give away mistakes because the game was too big for him. It's alright to be outplayed, it's not alright to be outgamed. One could argue that Akira should have played up his respect for his senior, especially in Japanese culture. But unlike most Japanese kids, I don't think he was brought up to give that idea any merits, and we see that in how he acts towards Zama.
QotD 2: Sure. One could argue that my biggest problem is that I've had too many dream careers and too many things that I'm great but not exceptional at, which has given me such a constant case of career-ADD (even going back to college) that I could never quite choose one to focus on. Writer, game dev, general computer programmer, musician, teacher, Go player, scientist, entrepreneur. And so of course I did exactly none of those things and am instead a salesman.
Probably the most persistent dream, though, as been as a writer, but it's tough. Once I have the words I think I'm pretty good at polishing them, but it's so much easier to think up the stories and develop them in my head than putting them on paper. Still, I finally got myself started writing the book I've been trying to write for about 20 years, and I've got about 20,000 words on page since earlier this year.
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u/ClearlyQ 12d ago
partial rewatcher, manga reader, subs
Zama Ouza is to Touya what Touya is to Hikaru in this episode: raising mad over someone just living life and taking pro-level Go seriously. It's fun.
Ogata loves to make life interesting. I guess it's just no fun to see someone of Touya's skill finally take and pass the pro exam and then already be on the verge of spiritually quitting just before he's formally certified. It makes sense with Touya's background that he's more into the game for the game itself and not necessarily to make a living out of it, so becoming a professional does nothing except make his childhood passion feel more like an obligation. Just 13 and already on the verge of a career burnout; that's gotta suck. Good thing he's still so pissed off about Hikaru that it gives him something akin to a goal again. Even if that goal is to prove that Hikaru's a stupid dumbdumb.
Answers to QotD:
Respect in this question seems to mean two different things. Taking a junior colleague seriously in Zama's case vs. obvious deference in Touya's. Zama Ouza was probably expecting someone of Touya's age and newness to say something like, "I'll do my best but I'm certainly no match for a title holder like you!" but Touya was simply never brought up that way. He has great appreciation for the hard work professional Go players do to attain and strive for excellence, and that includes himself. In any case, Touya's lack of societally expected self-deprecation got Zama to take him seriously, which is probably what Touya thought Zama was already doing, so Zama's really the only one mentally thrown off between the two of them and that was by his own doing.
I did :)
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u/cppn02 12d ago
First Timer, subbed
Lol at Akira givin Hikaru the cold shoulder only to get angry when Ogata mentions Hikaru to him. Clearly Hikaru is still on his mind.
Likewise though Akira very much manages to get a reaction out of the pro player for the crime of not being nervous enough.
It is nice to see Hikaru settling in well with the Inseis (even though he's off to a losing start). I suppose he will outgrow them too eventually but he fits in so well there, better than at the go club dare I say.
QotD:
Should Zama show more respect for Touya Akira, or is his "I'm superior to you" attitude warranted? Likewise, should Akira show more respect for his senior?
Everyone would do better to be less of a dick tbh. That said I think Akira was fine here. Well other than his outfit.
Do you have, or did you have a dream career you wanted to pursue?
Not since I was a kid.
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u/wloff 13d ago
Rewatcher and your host, E-F subs
Come on. This is no longer just "almost like 'keikaku means plan'". It literally is the same thing!
Is it just me, or is the art looking a little sloppier than usual in parts of this episode? Maybe they ran into scheduling issues and some of these scenes were deemed less important, or something.
They're starting to bring up the reality of the quest to becoming a pro here: only a small minority of insei can make it. For the rest, it's going to have to be back to school or getting a normal job. But such is the reality for anyone who wants to be a professional athlete, or actor, or something like that. And I always think that just because reaching your dream is unlikely doesn't mean you shouldn't try!
Ogata really is a little shit-stirrer. I like him more and more. I can't always tell if Ogata actually wants to help Akira and Hikaru, or if he just wants to make things interesting for his own amusement, but the results speak for themselves. You can't deny that seeing Hikaru as insei absolutely does fire Akira up!
Hikaru is starting to get some wins together, which is nice. The sensei did think he was a bit weak for a new insei, so it only makes sense he'd struggle at first. But playing stronger opponents is a great way to improve!
Hikaru and Sai are so cute when they're in sync!
Zama-Ouza comes off as a little bit arrogant here. Of course, he is a title holder, so maybe he's entitled to it. I'm sure there's more than a little Japanese hierarchy at play here as well, as the senior player he'd expect Akira to show some more humility.
Will he be able to crush Akira like he intends to, or is Akira in fact stronger than you'd expect for a new 1 dan? Maybe strong enough to catch him off-guard?
QotD1: Zama absolutely should be careful not to underestimate Touya. But he is an established champion facing a new brand new rookie, so his demeanor is understandable. Touya I think is showing a very suitable amount of respect. He's being very polite and respectful, but he's showing up confident and eager to fight, and that's what you want in a competitor!
QotD2: I did kind of want to be an actor or singer, but I guess I didn't want it hard enough to really pursue it for too long. Instead, I became a writer and game designer. Then later I switched to a completely different career so I can make my money elsewhere and do creative things purely for the love of it. I still haven't given up on the dream of some day writing a story or making a game that can touch and move people. You should never give up on your dreams, you just pivot to make them work for you!