Rewatch Hikaru no Go 25th Anniversary Rewatch: Episode 25 Discussion
The Twenty-Fifth Match: Fear and Impatience
◄ Episode 24 | Index | Episode 26 ►
Series Information:
Streams:
Purchaseable:
On Apple TV or Prime Video.
Proverb of the Day:
Invade a moyo one move before it becomes territory.
Tsumego of the Day:
Today's theme: middle game!
Questions of the Day:
- Do you think Hikaru should have accepted Ogata's invitation to Touya Meijin's study group?
- How do you feel about fast food burgers? Do you get them often?
Rewatchers, remember there are first-timers present!
Be careful not to spoil anything that hasn't happened yet in the show. If you wish to discuss something in the future, make sure to hide it under spoiler tags.
Spoiler tags work like this:
[Hikaru no Go]>!Sai is cute.!<
Which becomes: [Hikaru no Go]Sai is cute.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 10d ago
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 10d ago
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
It does pick up on his episode 2 imagery of cutting Akira (and his stones) down. Sai really still is a bit of a samurai at heart.
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
In other words, Hikaru has to climb that high in three months.
And more than that, he can't climb to A and then to rank 16 within A in the same month, so he has to play greatly for two of those months.
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u/wloff 10d ago
Rewatcher and your host, E-F subs
The American guy back in New York definitely had a WacDonald's cup. Is NacDonald's a competitor, a cheap knock-off, or do they use different branding in different countries for some reason?
Waya gives Hikaru a hard time, but considering Hikaru is essentially a no-name class 2 newcomer, they're sure hanging out a lot, and Waya goes out of his way to invite Hikaru to a study session, too. I think Waya just flat out likes hanging out with Hikaru. Probably because they're somewhat similar personalities, and close to the same age.
Kind of funny how Sai also sits on a chair here, by the way!
Ogata really loves stirring up some shit! It would have been hilarious to see Akira's face if Hikaru had just waltzed in on Touya Meijin's study session! But I understand why Hikaru would refuse. But Ogata doesn't leave without giving Hikaru a new goal to aim at. Last year it was Akira who wanted to enter a tournament to play Hikaru, now it's Hikaru who wants to enter a tournament to play Akira! Ah, the parallels.
Hikaru's got a long way to go, though.
I think Sai is spot on about what is making Hikaru timid and afraid. He's also kind of acting like a teacher for the first time, or one of the first times we can see, anyway! Usually he seems to be just happy to kick Hikaru's butt.
Hey, it's the realistic-looking-fake-fish tank!
Are they really fake fish? They look pretty real to me. Am I missing a joke here? What do our aquarium experts say?
QotD1: I was disappointed at first when he didn't, but I think he made the right call. They're supposed to be rivals, not teammates. I think it's better for both of their development to train separate from each other. Plus, Waya was such a bro to invite Hikaru to Morishita's study group!
QotD2: I mean, I don't get them often, but they're there for a reason, and I like them for the right occasion.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 10d ago
Waya gives Hikaru a hard time, but considering Hikaru is essentially a no-name class 2 newcomer, they're sure hanging out a lot, and Waya goes out of his way to invite Hikaru to a study session, too. I think Waya just flat out likes hanging out with Hikaru. Probably because they're somewhat similar personalities, and close to the same age.
Yeah, I think that's why they get along so well too. He probably identifies with Hikaru's determination (and his outspoken way of expressing it), plus the rivalry with Akira, in a way that makes him want to help/root for Hikaru too.
Kind of funny how Sai also sits on a chair here, by the way!
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
Are they really fake fish? They look pretty real to me. Am I missing a joke here? What do our aquarium experts say?
I dunno. From the bit of the tank we can see behind Yuki's shoulder, it does look like it's rather flat, without any depth at all. That could just be perspective, though...
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u/gameinn1github 10d ago
Had to repost due to spoiler tag problem twice. Don't really do this kind of stuff much, lol.
The American guy back in New York definitely had a WacDonald's cup. Is NacDonald's a competitor, a cheap knock-off, or do they use different branding in different countries for some reason?
I'm pretty sure it's just to avoid copyright/license problems with McDonald's. It's funny because I do think the anime got in trouble during the original TV airing for similar stuff.
[Hikaru no Go Spoiler]On the original TV broadcast of the Hokuto Cup New Year Special, there is a "Starbucks Coffee" sign but on Blu-Ray it has changed to "Starbooks Coffee". Made a quick comparison here. Sorry I don't do much link stuff so you might have to right click and view image in new tab to get the full resolution image.
Also a note about [episode 26]The original E-F video is joined together for episodes 25 and 26. This unfortunately means they didn't show/translate the episode 26 title. I took the official English title "Welcome to the A-League". Thinking now this is probably a mistake as I'm guessing the A-League is what the English localization calls first class and B-League for second class. e.g. from Apple TV "Starting off with six straight losses, Hikaru's at the bottom of the B-league". Maybe it would have been better to title the episode "Welcome to (the?) First Class" to better match for subbed viewers.
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u/wloff 10d ago
wloff's go corner #25
Hikaru's had such smooth sailing to reach this level so far. But slumps or plateaus like this are something all go players must experience and fight through, no matter what their strength. Most kyu players have had to go through at least three painful plateaus before they get to dan level or close to it.
Sai's theory that Hikaru's troubles are because he's playing a much stronger opponent like Sai make a lot of sense to me. I had a tutor at go for a while when I was trying hard to improve, and playing him in 9 stone handicap games definitely made me afraid. I was afraid of taking any kind of a risk because he'd just kill my groups, so I became timid and scared. But eventually it did help me understand better when my groups need defending and when I can count on being able to fight a bit!
It's such a painful and frustrating feeling when you think you're doing everything right, but you just can't seem to be able to reach the next level. It feels like there's this invisible wall in your way, and you don't know how to break through it. But when eventually something just clicks and you have a fast spurt of development, like several stones of strength in a very short time as a kyu player. There's nothing better than that feeling when you're progressing again!
The move Sai suggests at the study group is what's called a probing move. The position comes from the 11th Fujitsu Cup Final in 1998, one of the biggest international tournaments, between Yi Ch'ang-ho and Chang Hao (B).
White has so many stones in this area, it's almost White's territory, but not quite. Before it becomes completely solid, Black would like to do something to take a little bit of it away. The probing move doesn't aim at any one specific point in White's sphere of influence, but it can be useful in many different ways.
If White simply connects, there is no weakness to cut through, but Black can jump into the corner. Thanks to the probing move, Black now has a friendly stone to help with the invasion in both directions, so he should be able to make some kind of a living invasion.
In the actual game, White blocked from the inside, and Black used the probing move as aji to aid in himself doing some damage on the top side. After exchanging the moves up to White 10, he pushed and cut with 11 and 13. It's still a complicated fight, but one where the probing move helps a lot.
For reference, White could have also blocked from the outside. It could have led to a very similar outcome than in the real game, but also something like this: White spends 4 and 6 to solidify the corner. The probing move of Black 1 is just about dead, but while sacrificing it, Black connects his stones and builds the top side for himself.
This is all slightly high level, but the essence of a probing move is this. It's a move that doesn't commit to anything specific, but can be very useful in plenty of different ways, and the opponent won't be able to prevent all of them, so you attack in whichever way was left undefended.
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u/wloff 10d ago edited 10d ago
Tsumego of the Day
Today's theme: middle game!
I don't think probe move related problems is really a thing, it's a very large and vague idea. Instead, let's have some problems related to middle game fighting in general. That's also a large and vague idea, but at least I can find a handful of problems about it!
- Beginner 25-1. Black to play. How should Black give atari to the white stone?
Beginner 25-2. Black to play. White 1 was a bad move. How should Black reply?
Intermediate 25-1. Black to play. There is a black stone in atari. Should Black think about saving it or sacrificing it?
Intermediate 25-2. Black to play. What's the best way to invade White's territory?
Advanced 25-1. Black to play. Find a tesuji by which you can either rescue your one isolated stone, or prevent White from rescuing her four at the top.
Advanced 25-2. Black to play. Seven black stones are about to be cut off. Find a way to save them.
Solutions to yesterday's problems:
(Solutions to Day 23 are also finally up at yesterday's thread!)
Beginner 24-1
- Black 1 is the throw-in which makes the white eye false and kills her.
- If it were White to play, White 1 would make two eyes and give the white stones life.
Beginner 24-2
- The throw-in of Black 1 is the correct answer.
- If White captures with 2, Black throws in a second time with 3, and White is dead.
Intermediate 24-1
- Black sacrifices two stones with 1.
- If White takes with 2, Black retakes with a, and White is left with only one eye.
Intermediate 24-2
- Black sacrifices once with 1...
- ...and again with 3. If white a, Black b kills White.
- White lives if Black plays 1. Black can't connect at a, so White will get her second eye.
Advanced 24-1
- Black 1 kills White. If White 2, Black 3 destroys the second eye on the edge. Black 1 at a would also work.
- Black 1 or a fails. After 2, Whtie can make another eye on the right.
Advanced 24-2
- Black sacrifices two stones with 1...
- ...then another with 3. White is dead after Black 5.
- If Black 1, White 2 makes a and b miai for life.
If you wish to discuss today's problems, please do so under spoiler tags, to give others the chance to solve them on their own! I'll be posting the solutions to today's problems tomorrow.
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u/Biokabe 10d ago
[Adv 25-1]I believe P-16 does the trick here. If White ignores it to link the four left stones up, then Black can push through and save the isolated Black stone. If White instead connects at Q-16, Black can then descend to O-19, with the stone at P-16 preventing the cut at O-17.
[Adv 25-2]M15. White can't block at O-15 because of a shortage of liberties, so he has to connect at N-15. Now Black N-13, and once again White can't connect because of a shortage of liberties, so they have to capture at M-14, allowing Black to connect his seven stones out with O-15. If White tries to prevent the connection by playing at O-13 instead of N-15, Black can capture the three cutting stones with the placement of N-15. If White captures with O-15, Black can simply capture the (now four) stones in snapback.
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
[Beginner 25-1]Definitely C-17, otherwise White will place Black in atari while escaping.
[Beginner 25-2]H-18 cleanly captures G-18.
[Intermediate 25-1]Saving that stone would be in gote. I'd rather try to strengthen the stones on the right.
[Intermediate 25-2]G-2 feels nice, pressuring both upwards and to the right.
[Advanced 25-1]P-16 looks decisive, both threatening Q-16 and strengthening P-17.
[Advanced 25-2]M-15 N-15 N-13 protects the O-13 point and forces White to play M-14 before O-15 due to lack of liberties.
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u/No_Rex x2 10d ago
[B 25-1]C-17 to help the two black stones
[B 25-2]E-19, G-19, H-18 leads to capture
[I 25-1]I would save it. White is still weak and might die. Giving up E-4 allows for an easy eye for white that might save that group.
[I 25-2]I think you need to play in the gap to prevent white from closing it. G-4 or F-4, probably the first one.
[A 25-1]No idea. I would connect at O-17, but maybe white can snake around with O-19 then.
[A 25-2]N-13. It prevents O-13, which is the dangerous point to cut black off. If white then tries O-15, M-15, N-15, M-14 and the white three stones die.
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u/Biokabe 10d ago
[A25-1]White can indeed snake around with O-19, which saves the four stones and allows White to later cut off the black stone as well. There's a hint to the solution in the brief - you can succeed by saving the sole black stone or by cutting off the four white stones.
[A25-2]After White O-15, the black stone at O-14 is in atari. If Black plays at N-15, White can save himself by capturing the stone there, and his three stones can then connect out.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 10d ago
First-Time Viewer no Go
Sai is getting a little overzealous about Hikaru's training, like his excitement about facing off against or studying with other pros got turned up to eleven now that the goal seems within reach. The idea of "fear" in reference to a board game doesn't really work for me, but I guess they mean he's just approaching it with a defeatist attitude because of his losing streak? And after that bold declaration too.
Speaking of which, I liked the reaction from Hikaru's teachers. I was expecting them to scold him for that little outburst, but they actually appreciated his boldness! Likewise, Touya Meijin calling everyone worthy opponents is a really nice outlook and shows that he's not stuck up (like a certain Oza) even though he's one of the top players.
Hikaru still has a long way to go, [next episode] although he may reach his goal pretty soon if that title is any indication. Not sure if his decision to avoid Touya Meijin's class because of Akira is a good one though. I do think it's best that he attends the class he already agreed to, because everyone was expecting him and was very welcoming too, but when Ogata said he could do both, he really should have taken him up on that offer, especially if he's serious about competing with Akira. This is like a prime chance to learn how his opponent thinks.
Questions of the Day:
1) Already discussed above.
2) I used to when I was a kid, but now I cook everything from scratch - both burgers and the rolls.
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
The idea of "fear" in reference to a board game doesn't really work for me, but I guess they mean he's just approaching it with a defeatist attitude because of his losing streak?
There's moves where you can clearly calculate out how things will go, and there's moves where the continuation gets more complex and its kinda muddy if things will go in your favour or not. In this case, fear refers to Hikaru being unwilling to go for the more unclear plays out of an expectation that his opponent will outplay him, anyway, and that it's thus better to go for the safe play where he knows what he has.
Or in short, fear refers to Hikaru's unwillingness to take risks.
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u/Heda-of-Aincrad https://myanimelist.net/profile/Heda-of-Aincrad 10d ago
That's a much better way of describing it.
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u/MaskOfIce42 https://anilist.co/user/MaskOfIce 10d ago
First Timer, Subbed
Kinda a low point for Hikaru, but very realistic to what I've seen/heard before, people will often have fantastic growth, then hit something and either stagnate or regress until they figure out a way through it. While not the same, I'm reminded of Haikyuu season 2 where the team is essentially breaking down their old habits and in the process lose a ton of practice games before finally building themselves back up into a much stronger team. Hikaru isn't consciously breaking down his habits here, but still has a similar "need to figure out why he's hitting this wall" issue.
And he has started studying with groups of people, which it's nice to see Hikaru building more connections with other Go players. And he had the opporunity to work with Toya Meijin and Akira, but I kinda like that he didn't take it up since I like this self imposed "I'm not going to take a shortcut to run into Akira again, I'm going to reach him with my own skill". While there's an argument to be made he might improve better in that study group, I think that keeping Akira as a more distant force he has to reach with his own power helps him improve.
Question 1: Oops, I kinda answered this. I think it was the right call, even if it is an unparalleled opportunity, just because I think Hikaru would keep moving more towards his goal by not getting to interact with Akira without reaching him.
Question 2: You ask this as I finish up shake shack dinner, so uh...... I guess that's questionably fast food, but I do tend to have burgers more often than I'd like, including the occasional McDonalds even that is absolutely not that good, sometimes I just want it.
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u/zambonijesus 10d ago
Rewatcher, manga reader, subs
I appreciate Hikaru being nervous about going to the study session because it is always nice to see different aspects of him acting his age aside from being bratty. I respect the reason why Hikaru declines the invitation to Touya Meijin's study session.
Introducing a new short term goal for Hikaru to chase, now he has to get promoted out of second class in the next three months. It's nice to see the Go class teacher again. Hikaru getting too tentative and losing because he plays against Sai so much, who is so much better than he is, is also good writing.
Waya's master's study session feels a lot more chill and open than the glimpse of Touya Meijin's we see in this episode where the attendees immediately look nervous and awkward when the Meijin arrives.
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u/wloff 10d ago
I appreciate Hikaru being nervous about going to the study session because it is always nice to see different aspects of him acting his age aside from being bratty.
I'm really noticing this rewatch how all of these kids really act like kids their age, in a way that's kind of rare in anime. Hikaru is bratty and loud and selfish and inconsiderate like a 13-year-old would be, but then he acts shy and timid and nervous around adults he doesn't know... just like a 13-year-old would!
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
Rewatcher
Oh sweet, Hikaru moved up to 18th! And he one his first match of the round by resignation, too!
It's fun to imagine how this scene must have appeared to those two. Hikaru first lets out that "sounds like a bother so nah", only to immediately backtrack and violently beat up his inner demon? Also, hi Asumi! She made quite an impression on me during my previous watches.
But as great as Sai is as a training partner and teacher for Hikaru, taking this opportunity to get his first proper pro contacts will surely be invaluable to him.
What a great of moment of tension that was. Touya-sensei's study session, you say? What an unique opportunity! But Hikaru decline. Being in the same study session as his rival is a bit much for him. But I think there's also another layer to it, though I'm don't think Hikaru is particularly aware of it: By declining Touya-sensei's study session, he is also honouring the soft promise with Akira to not appear in front of each other until Hikaru has caught up to the level of a worthy adversary to him.
I do love how much of a shitstirrer Ogata is, haha Remember how Hikaru just didn't much care about others investment in go? Ogata is all about nourishing the field!
It's the old go teacher who taught Hikaru the ropes! What a surprise! The world sure is small, huh? This is probably the first time Waya learned of Hikaru only having started playing go just about a year ago.
Some great directing again. Well, their discussion about giving up or not giving up helps Hikaru get his mind back on track, but will it be enough for him to get out of his slumps? Some things are easier said than done, after all! But I think it's a good change in mindset. What he needs right now might just be a bit of emptiness.
This is why Sai has been so in the background these past episodes!? He really is a puppy!
Quite honestly though, this slump that Hikaru is going through at the moment is something you often hear reports of people having had right before their strength made sudden jumps upwards. So with that in mind, it might very well be a good omen.
Ohhh yeah of course! Hikaru is always playing Sai, a player much much stronger than him! He has barely any experience actually playing from ahead and he's being conditioned against taking risks, even healthy and calculated ones; his experience is unbalanced!
Another really stunning setpiece! And the advice Sai has for Hikaru is absolutely sound: Hikaru's game is too conservative as he anticipates his opponent to shut him down otherwise, but this leads him to playing with a blunted sword. He needs to dare to strive to precision; that is the only way to regain a sharp blade!
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 10d ago
And he one his first match of the round by resignation, too!
What do all the red stamps mean?
I do love how much of a shitstirrer Ogata is
I think I had a negative opinion of Ogata the first time around
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
The red marks either record the score difference if the game was played to the end, or they mark resignation with the 中 symbol. You can see them having recorded scores of 1½, 3½ and 9½, in order.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 10d ago
Rewatcher
ep 25
- NacDonalds?
- I wonder what the different red stamps are, if black spots are defeats
- Waya's been playing hard games and failed the pro exam 3 times!
- I think Sai is getting a little frustrated
- Hmmm, is he doing to ditch the Pro for the Meijin? That would be totally in line with his selfishness
- I wonder if Sai can get stuck in an elevator
- What is Hikaru's issue? #hardthink
Terrible advice from Waya, playing against a master just made Hikaru timid!
Feels like we're on the cusp of a change....
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u/ClearlyQ 10d ago
partial rewatcher, manga reader, subs
This is mostly unrelated to the episode at hand. A fellow Hikago fan I was acquainted with years ago mentioned once or twice before how they didn't really like Touya Akira's voice in the anime and I didn't really understand why. But recently during these rewatches, I've kinda come to understand. There's really nothing wrong with the voice acting per se, the timbre just feels out of place sometimes.
Shirakawa-kun is so polite. He uses "watashi" and "kimi". Sai uses "watashi" too.
Waya is so nice for inviting Hikaru to the study group. I wonder if it was because he wanted someone there around his age. Ogata continues to be lit up in creepy ways.
I like how Hikaru's slump is shown right after he got really fired up. Sometimes it really does just work out that way. The more a goal is in sight, the more you might unknowingly become anxious about fucking up how to get there. Though in Hikaru's case, it's also mostly about finally getting good enough to get a better sense of when Sai is about to decimate him on the board that it makes him play less confidently. He didn't used to be good enough at the game to read the flow of higher level plays. Maybe the Hikaru of this episode would have been able to tell that Touya was outplayed in that exhibition match and a resignation was just around the corner.
"Turning your fear into courage" is a great phrase :) I like it.
Go! Go! Igo! corner showed us the actual real life Nihon Ki-in aquarium! The fish are real after all? lol. I guess these must have been varieties Sai has never seen before and that's why they looked fake to him. It looks like a saltwater aquarium and IDK if that would have existed or been mainstream enough if it did in either Sai or Shuusaku's time.
Answers to QotD:
- Considering Hikaru's motivations for becoming an insei and aiming for pro qualifications, I think he did what was best for him. He wants to be Touya's rival and not a study buddy. Though, we do also see that Hikaru's more aware of the gap between him and Touya now so he might have also been unconsciously thinking he can't show his face in front of his rival without proving himself first. Good thing the Wakajishisen is coming up!
- I get them relatively often. Maybe once or twice a month. There're some franchises here that offer them very cheap and sometimes a cheap burger is what hits the spot.
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u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick 10d ago
He didn't used to be good enough at the game to read the flow of higher level plays.
That's a good observation. Before, all moves were risky to Hikaru because he just didn't know the game well enough. But it's precisely because Hikaru has become able to read the game that he now has both safe and risky plays, and with that the ability to distinguish them and go for the safer but weaker moves.
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u/cppn02 10d ago
First Timer, subbed
Looks like Hikaru is entering his popular phase with all those invitations lol.
I was not expecting to go into how Sai might actually be holding back Hikaru but the show made a good argument for it. Although I would have liked a conclusion beyond just that Hikaru just needs to stop being scared.
QotD:
Do you think Hikaru should have accepted Ogata's invitation to Touya Meijin's study group?
Getting into Touya Meijin's group could be great for Hikaru's development. However I feel like his relationship with Akira would have complicated things so Hikaru made the right call here.
How do you feel about fast food burgers? Do you get them often?
Not a big burger guy.
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u/TradingStoicly 10d ago edited 10d ago
First Timer Subbed
I just want to say real quick for those who missed it: In today's Go Go Igo, they showed a player who became a pro at the age of 12. His name is Yuta Iyama. I decided to look him up for the fun of it to see where he's at in life since this was 25 years ago. He ended up becoming amazing at Go! In April 2016, he became the first player in Japanese history to hold all seven major titles simultaneously. What a baller!
Anyway, Hikaru's progression reminds me of myself with my trading. Recently I've been scared to lose. So much so that when a loss happens, it bothered me a lot. It made me a worse trader. I'm now starting to dull that fear and become better. I know Hikaru will make it to the Young Lions Tournament!
QOTD: 1. Nah he did the right thing imo. He's waiting until he plays Akira to see him again. I would've done the same 2. I love burgers lol. Maybe a bit too much haha. My favorite is Five Guys