r/Anarchy101 • u/InvestigatorMotor607 • 5d ago
Why did Rojava fail, while the Zapistas continue?
A recent post on here was arguing that Libertarian Socialist projects are doomed to fail like Rojava due to the existence of a state and half measures. My question is why are the Zapistas able to survive and what lessons do we take from this?
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u/spookyjim___ Communist š“ā 4d ago
Rojava existed in the middle of a civil war and was thus on very precarious grounds, it clearly just didnāt have the military power to defend itself as an autonomous government and like the PKK has had to take a defeat, tactical or not, to dissolve into the new Syrian governmentā¦ if I were to guess, once the situation in Syria becomes more stable, and it starts acting as a liberal democracy, the PYD will come back following in the footsteps of the PKK as a more moderate (in the sense of not doing active revolution) party which engages in more traditional Bookchinite libertarian municipalist praxis, in which Iām sure theyāll continue to try to hold on to the coops and dual-power mechanisms they built in Rojava while having to give up governmental power, but theyāll simply start doing local electoralist tactics and try to urge for federalism within Syria so they can have their own autonomous government again
Mind you I say all of that with the context that I donāt support the democratic confederalist project, I think itās counter-revolutionary
The Zapatistas ofc exist within a different context, rather than active civil war, it exists more so in a type of Cold War with the Mexican government and local cartels, in which thereās some skirmishes every now and then, but definitely not the absolute chaos that was the Syrian civil war for the DemCon Rojava project
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u/TheIdSavant 4d ago
I wouldnāt call it a āCold War.ā The EZLN announced the dissolution of MAREZ in 2023. They have described the regional conflict as a ācivil warā in recent official statements. Much of the region is occupied by the cartels, subject to āblockades, assaults, kidnappings, protection rackets, forced recruitment and shootings,āĀ and in ācomplete chaosā (their words) while young people are leaving in search of opportunities elsewhere.Ā
Further reading:Ā https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/scott-campbell-notes-on-the-ezln-s-latest-announcement-from-chiapas
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u/stinkybaby5 4d ago
why do u think its counter rev?
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u/spookyjim___ Communist š“ā 4d ago
Takes its starting point as a mixture of analysis between a version of the post-modernist view of the āmultitudeā and then narrows it down a bit with a type of Kurdish nationalism which they proclaim isnāt Kurdish nationalismā¦ this is completely incorrect imo as the starting point should always be class and from there the way capitalist mediations add on to the class relation via sexism, racism, etc.
The political project of Rojava didnāt abolish the bourgeois state machine and seemingly did not wish to do so, at the end of the day, Rojava was a federal diarchic-presidential republic with semi-direct/participatory democratic features, it was simply a more radical form of the Swiss government
Accordingly the project of Rojava thus also clearly didnāt seek to abolish capitalism in any serious manner, they even enshrined the right to private property in their constitution
So I personally donāt think democratic confederalism is a useful tendency of socialism, and I think Rojava had been going through counter-revolution for the longest time as the PYD acted as its vanguard and thus set the parameters for revolutionary action
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u/stinkybaby5 4d ago
do u know where i can read more on this? and ya i def remember ppl in US trying to implement DC here and i read up on some of the theory and it expliclity stated the goal was class revolution. felt pretty absurd to try to implement that in the USA
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u/spookyjim___ Communist š“ā 4d ago
I think youāre confused, the goal of DemCon is not class revolution as I laid out in my above comment, thatās the issue that I take with it, the US and the whole world needs a classist revolution on part of the proletariat to abolish class
If you want to read up on critiques of Rojava, I suggest these:
Rojava: reality and rhetoric - Troploin (Marxist analysis)
Revolution in Rojava? - La Oveja Negra (anarchist analysis)
Rojava: an anarcho-syndicalist perspective (anarchist analysis)
In Rojava: people's war is not class war - ICT (Marxist analysis)
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u/stinkybaby5 4d ago
Why are you calling me confused?? im agreeing with you and talking about how people tried implementing it here irl and how it doesnt make sense to do so
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u/spookyjim___ Communist š“ā 4d ago
> and i read up on some of the theory and it expliclity stated the goal was class revolution. felt pretty absurd to try to implement that in the USA
Unless you accidentally worded that strange thatās why I called you confused, because I explicitly said A.) DemCon doesnāt focus on class and thatās an issue and subsequently B.) that our analysis should be focused on class
So how can you agree with me when youāre seemingly calling the idea of class revolution absurd?
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u/stinkybaby5 4d ago
typo. meant to say wasnt*. im disagreeing with anarchists trying to implement it here. usually in a settler fashion
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u/spookyjim___ Communist š“ā 4d ago
Gotcha, sorry for the accusation of confusion lol, I hope you find use out of the articles I linked for you! :)))
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u/stinkybaby5 4d ago
theyre pretty interesting. altho the articles u listed as marxist analysis still seem more like libertarian/anarchist analysis. still interesting
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u/stinkybaby5 4d ago
also. i understand the Rojava council system. but how is it actually led/governed from the top. i gather the PKK are no longer in charge? some group must be in charge of like, the military right? above the local militias
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u/bemolio 2d ago edited 2d ago
To put it briefly, the SDC (Syrian Democratic Council) and the AANES (Autonomous Administration of Northeast Syria), of wich the PYD's kadros occupied important positions, but not exclusively, made all important decisions concerning budgets, finances, public companies and consesions. The SDF was the body making the calls in relations with other military actors, states, security policy in general and surveillance.
For example, at the end of the year the officials at the SDC or the AANES level would sit down and draft a new budget for the next. Then a slice would be assigned to the Cantons, and the local councils would meet with the Canton Councils to ask for money in order to perform their projects. This arrangement created tensions. Then the councils, sometimes Cantons as well, would call public meetings or commune meetings to ask people what they need.
The SDF was supposed to be a federation of local militias linked to civil councils. Each militia would send their representative to the SDF general council. This was the case for certain regions, but also in practice, the SDF authorities could dismiss or select commanders as well, like it happened in Deir ez Zor. Also, the elite commandos and special anti-terror units called in for important security operations were all from the YPG and the YPJ.
Many key people were probably comrades since their guerrilla days in Qandil with the PKK, like Sipan Hamo, Mazloum Abdi or Nour al-Din. Having said this, it would be a mistake to confuse the SDF with the PKK. There were important differences or disagreements between these 2 in key issues, such as the relationship with the US.
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u/spookyjim___ Communist š“ā 3d ago
The *PYD are no longer in charge since it dissolved into the new Syrian stateā¦ to be honest Iām no expert on the complicated ins and outs of how governance in Rojava operated, as far as I know it just roughly was some version of a multi-party semi-direct/participatory democracy
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u/InvestigatorMotor607 4d ago
Thanks for your answers! Its ashame I always enjoyed reading the Democon pamphlets and thought DemCon was making strides to abolishing capitalism but I guess not.
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u/spookyjim___ Communist š“ā 4d ago
I get it, there was a time where I was really sympathetic to democratic confederalism, but I just learned more and grew more ideologically, we shouldnāt let these things get us down tho, as Rosa Luxemburg said - āThe whole road of socialism ā so far as revolutionary struggles are concerned ā is paved with nothing but thunderous defeats. Yet, at the same time, history marches inexorably, step by step, toward final victory! Where would we be today without those ādefeats,ā from which we draw historical experience, understanding, power and idealism? Today, as we advance into the final battle of the proletarian class war, we stand on the foundation of those very defeats; and we can do without any of them, because each one contributes to our strength and understanding.ā
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u/MorphingReality 4d ago
Rojava was sandwiched between 3 nations that weren't keen on its existence, one of which spends 3x more on military than Mexico, another of which wanted to genocide them 20 years ago, and sat on oil/gas reserves they all want.
If EZLN was part of the Mexican state that govt would almost certainly face a net deficit in the area, and its useful as a scapegoat/distraction against cartels (you could argue rojava occupied a similar role when ISIS was around), so its tolerated more or less for now.
Obviously a lot more to it than that, but sparknotes version.
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u/Frosty_Dimension4026 2d ago
The civil war in Syria ended, and anarchist projects tend to get conquered toward the end of a civil war. The Mexican government is still fighting the cartels and cares more about them than a group of rural farmers.
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u/LittleKobald 4d ago
Something other posters haven't covered yet, is that the Mexican government did originally wage war against the EZLN, but had to back off due to public pressure. It would be like the US sending in the military against the Waco compound. Legally defensible, but overkill. They could easily be eradicated by the Mexican government, but it would cost enough political capital that it just isn't worth it, especially considering how they're acting like a buffer for some cartel activity.
Also, one of the things that completely fucked Rojava was the US backing a rival faction. Rojava was a temporary ally while fighting ISIS, but now that ISIS is brought to heel, the US government has very different interests and abandoned the Kurds for a more direct political puppet. A word of warning to all rebellions, never count on state assistance. You'll be used until you're no longer useful.