Folks with Partners in Academia, How?

[u/sawyerbonesy]

I'm sure there's about a billion two body problem questions in here, but I'm not finding any with advice I like (brutal).

Long story short: my wife is about to finish up her PhD. I'm enormously proud of her. I love her dearly, and don't view divorce as an option for me at all. The rub is that I can see life outside of my marriage getting increasingly hard very quickly. Ive been in a part of the country I don't particularly enjoy for the better part of 5 years now, working a job that I'm borderline overqualified for, unable to get into a masters degree that would pump me up to the bare minimum to get a "real" job in my very specialized field. It's been very, very, hard on my self-esteem. I loved my job that I had before we left, and I was applying to grad schools before we left, but I thought I could get into one here, and when that didn't work out, I felt my career just kind of flatline. I'm working with MS students 6 years my junior who look like they have their lives together in a seriously concerning way, and I just cannot seem to get over how behind I feel.

Here's the rub. I'm applying to grad schools now, and I'm getting a decent amount of positive responses from potential advisors that I feel I would work well with. My wife, however, does not want to do long distance, at all. Like it's a complete non-negotiable for her. She wants kids, and soon, and doesn't want to wait much longer, which puts it all on me to get in somewhere where she is going to have a postdoc opportunity. Except she can't tell me where she's going to get an opportunity (obviously) and won't be even reaching out for months.

I just don't see a future in this where I get to progress in my career without getting insanely lucky, which isn't something that brings me much comfort. Has anyone else run into this? How did you manage? Career pivots? Patience? Substance abuse? I'm trying to figure out a way through this without being a resentful dickhead, but I keep getting closer and closer to that cliff.

[u/Impossible-Island826]

My partner and I are both in academia, and we’ve navigated similar challenges. I commuted for 4 hours each way, for one day per week, for a year and worked remotely so my partner could attend his dream program.

In the end, we had an important conversation that I think might serve you well to have a version of. When he was deliberating whether to accept this other program offer (I was already in my program), he said he was willing to defer to make my life easier. In that moment, I realized the only thing I wanted less than a 8-hour commute every week and couch surfing with friends was going the rest of our lives with one of us feeling resentful because the other didn’t compromise to ensure both of us get the chance to fully self-actualize.

You deserve the change to self-actualize! You deserve an opportunity to grow the way you want to grow. Both of you will need to make sacrifices, but I truly believe it’s worth being vulnerable with your wife and explaining that both of you deserve the opportunity to grow, neither of you want a lifetime of quiet resentment, and compromise on both sides is needed to make that happen, even when it is hard and terribly uncomfortable at times.

I’m really sorry you’re at this turning point. I have no doubt that, with a few hard conversations and the love you have for each other, you’ll figure it out. 

[u/sawyerbonesy → u/Impossible-Island826]

That made me feel genuinely better. Thanks

[u/Impossible-Island826 → u/sawyerbonesy]

I’m so glad. It genuinely will be okay, I have no doubt. It won’t be easy. But pursuing growth and personal aspirations that are meaningful to us matters so much more than taking the easy path. And it sounds like both of you are accustomed to working hard in pursuit of meaningful work!

[u/Expensive-Object-830]

Heard & felt. If distance is absolutely not an option, could you work together to pick a couple of cities that have solid opportunities for both of you, and agree to aggressively pursue opportunities there even if they’re an 80% fit (alt ac, etc)? Eg “our industries are strong in Denver and Charlotte, let’s start informational interviewing now and whoever gets the best offer by April, we’ll go where that is”?

Edit: thank you kind stranger for the award! I hope this turns out to be helpful.

[u/DrDirtPhD]

Sounds like you need to figure out your priorities and non-negotiables and settle in for what might be a hard conversation, chief. The only person who can help you resolve this is wrapping up her PhD and about to have to navigate the academic job market labyrinth.

[u/SophiaLoo]

I hear & have experienced a dynamic of this. I'm the academic. Significant other is on a pension, is paid well, we have a good mortgage rate on a home in our established city etc. so moving wasn't an option. Which is a hard reality when searching for a faculty position. We have 4 metropolitan areas within a 2hr commute.

I searched/interviewed for faculty jobs within 4h commute from home. At one point I was a finalist for a position 4hrs away that paid very well. I was planning on getting a crashpad for a couple of overnights during the week. Many do that, some commute for 2h/d etc to make the position happen. I ended up getting a TT position 30m from home. Complete happenstance. I'm now in my first year in a TT position and am so tired, I couldn't imagine adding the dynamic of a long commute on to everything.

Good luck. This isn't easy for anyone. I appreciate the comment that referenced researching target markets & setting a timeline / date.

[u/federationbelle]

My suggestion is to recognise that it's very rare for a career to deliver the feelings of success and self-actualisation you seem to be hoping for, so look elsewhere.

I know plenty of people who have completed the Masters, got the career they dreamed of but don't feel even 10% of the sense of satisfaction you seem to be hoping for.

If you didn't have to earn an income what would you do in your local environment, with your time? For me it would be contributing to community projects in my area of expertise (I want to set up a co-operatively owned enterprise). For others, it would be local conservation or a community garden. For others, dedicating time to building the family life, well-being of love ones. For some, it would be writing the novel or painting watercolours.

If you read this and see these options as "second rate" or "admitting failure" then I'd encourage you to realise that these things can all be far more valuable to ourselves and to others, and more inline with genuine self fulfilment and actualisation, than a job. The notion of self-fulfilment through careers is not realistic for most of the world's population, it's not healthy, and it leads to burnout in many fields - including academia.

[u/radionul → u/federationbelle]

"it's very rare for a career to deliver the feelings of success and self-actualisation"

Somebody should fly this from one of those airplanes that have letters trailing after them.

[u/Mitch_Bagnet]

Ok. Is she in a field where she is likely to land an academic job? If she’s about to finish her PhD she is about to be very likely to have to move anyway. I know it’s stressful as I’ve been there (I was the one on the academic side). But it’s also the right time to have a long conversation about how to coordinate your goals.

[u/sawyerbonesy → u/Mitch_Bagnet]

Likely to land an academic job. She could also theoretically work in a research hospital but it's less likely. The conversation is always happening but it's just so uncertain

[u/GrandmasterCheetah → u/sawyerbonesy]

If she is shooting for a tenure track position, which can sometimes takes years (sometimes a decade) and can be filled with multiple unpredictable postdocs in between sometimes having to move internationally, it is insane that your wife expects you to follow her through just the CHANCE of her landing a TT job while not compromising on her end at all

[u/PeterCappelletti]

People need to compromise. Both of you. Which I am not seeing in the description above.

When I was looking for academic positions, my wife was in industry, and in the end I compromised and got an academic job in the region where she was working to accommodate for her career. I could have applied much wider, basically to the entire US and Europe, but in the end I stayed close to where she had the job. And she compromised before, when she was selecting jobs while I was still a postdoc.

Both people need to compromise.

[u/justanotherbooklover → u/PeterCappelletti]

This.  I'm the academic in the relationship, my partner is willing to move wherever I get tenure, with a geographical limit. I'm closing myself A LOT of doors because I'm not applying in the US where he doesn't want to live. I'm trying my best to land a job in the country where he'd find a good job, since he'd give up his permanent position to follow me. 

[u/Longjumping_Eye_3441 → u/PeterCappelletti]

This sounds super weird but honestly I feel like relationships work out more if one person is less career driven and is okay with a job.

[u/heyella11]

My partner and I got together while they were just starting their dissertation and got married a couple months before they defended. They got their first TT job immediately, 600 miles away in a state I was not exactly thrilled about. We went and I worked freelance for a while, which was nice for the flexibility, but I ended up eventually finding another job that I liked a lot, in my field, which was surprising to me for that geographical location. However, we were so far from family and it was not a state we liked, and our exact location meant travel was difficult no matter the mode. I could not imagine having a kid there. My partner went back on the job market after two years. Luckily, having landed a TT job before made them more marketable. It sucked for them having to start the tenure process over again and have colleagues treat them like they had no experience in their new job. Our new city is much closer to family, but I struggled to find a new job as my previous field was out of the question in our new home. It’s also a more expensive area so money was tight. I pivoted, career-wise. I found a support position within my partner’s university (which I was vastly overqualified for), put my head down and worked for a few years and once I had more experience, was able to leverage my niche Master’s degree and work experience into an academic adjacent job at my partner’s university. We also now have a wonderful baby!

Marriage to an academic is constant compromise and negotiation. But that’s probably marriage in general, I’m afraid. I miss my old career path and field. If I’d never met my partner I think I’d be living in a different city and doing a much different job but you figure out what is important and what you can live with. I’m happy with our life.

[u/Shiranui42]

Something has got to give, you’ve been sacrificing your career opportunities for her career, if you can’t find a suitable grad school wherever she ends up, it will be crunch time and you should be mentally prepared for that discussion. Ideally you both find a good place to work together, but if you don’t, she may have to make a hard decision between delaying the kids until you get your masters (1-2 years isn’t that long) or finding some other way to compromise. Remind her as well that it will be difficult to raise kids on one academic salary and that she may want to take some time to settle into her new job before immediately getting pregnant and having sleepless nights for at least several months in a row?

[u/moosy85]

I did long distance exactly because I didn't want my husband to end up resenting me. It builds over time, and yours has already built its foundation and its basement. Be careful and talk to her about it. You need to try this for yourself and for your marriage. If you're getting a master and not a PhD, it'll be another year or 2. She can do this for you.

Edit: the long distance was pretty hard. Neither of us are very emotional, but it did feel like someone would rip out my heart every time we'd need to part. It does get better the day after and further, until you need to part again and it feels insanely painful again.

[u/yaboyanu]

Honestly, depending on your fields this might not get any better for a long time with the job market the way it is. It seems like your wife at least is in some sort of science and the consensus is that you basically have to be willing to move to wherever you can get a job these days. My partner and I both defended within a year of each other, so even less of a gap than you and your parnter, and we got jobs 2h away from each other. I now commute 4-5 hr per day a few times a week (while being 6 months pregnant with twins lol). His job pays more, so I just had to accept that my options are unfortunately going to be extremely limited for the time being and basically gave up the career I wanted.

I hate to say, but one of you might just have to make peace with not getting to do exactly what you want in the shorter term unless you are fortunate enough to have the flexibility and financial stability to move to a larger metro area that has ample opportunities for both of you. But also remember that things can change and maybe at some point you'll be able to find a solution that works well for both of you.

[u/No_Produce9777]

Any interest in being a stay at home dad?

[u/sawyerbonesy → u/No_Produce9777]

Not opposed in principle, but I love my field so much I feel grossed out at the thought of leaving it

[u/federationbelle → u/sawyerbonesy]

curious as to what your field is?!

[u/Old-Nothing-5019]

if there are any cities where your industries would overlap, and/or where there are institutions one or two hours apart with good opportunities for each of you and you could live somewhere in the middle or someone could have a slightly longer commute than the other, that is what i have seen work best for colleagues facing this issue. (academic here, but not married)

As someone who part of my job is running a training grant for pre-doc and post docs, I know firsthand how difficult that job market can be since the start of trump 2.0. I think an important point of context is whether she’s looking for an academic post doc or a job in industry or non profit? If it’s the ladder, I think there absolutely should be opportunities for you two to align, regardless of whatever your field is. If she is looking for an academic job, and she’s not coming in with some type of Grant funding or something that makes her an amazing standout, I won’t lie to you the options will likely be very limited and it will be tough for her to just pick a location and be able to get a job there. I work in a top 10 population city which has MANY R1s (in addition to many R2s, grad colleges) compared to the average city, and i have had colleagues who had funding that they would be bringing with them to the new institutions for their faculty position that still couldn’t just get a job here. if someone is an amazing candidate and already 75% funded and struggles a lot to get a job, the market is ROUGH. I don’t say this to be negative or to scare you just to provide some very real context around the advice that some of these comments are giving, and that i’m giving! you both need to be realistic about the very real possibility that the options for her may be very limited if trying to stay u in academia .You can both try your best to have a plan, but even the most excellent of candidates are really struggling right now. No institutions have money and there are hiring freezes still going on across the country. if your grad program is only a few years, she could aconsider taking an industry job or an easier to obtain position than academia right now that may not be necessarily moving her forward, but isn’t moving her backward to give you the opportunity to complete your program and reevaluate that opens up more opportunities for you both to find something in the same geographic location, apply for academic post docs when you’re nearing the end of your program. if this country doesn’t go to complete hell and we get trump 3.0, the academic market could be on the upswing at that point, especially if money is restored and suddenly a lot more people are needed

this sh*t ain’t easy. It sounds like you’re leading with compassion and understanding and I think that’s all you can do. And just hold that while still making decisions authentic to you, because overly compromising will make you resentful & will only hurt your marriage in the long run more than working through these difficult conversations in a way that prioritize both parties would now

[u/AdComfortable4173]

I can understand why you feel trapped, and I can understand why your wife may not want long distance or to postpone having children. Neither of you is wrong for wanting a future that matters to you. But this is a decision you need to make together, with both careers and your plans for children on the table. Studying while raising young children can be very demanding, and one of you may need to compromise Your wife will need to go on maternity do the othet should be earning too.compr9misr may mean a long commute, a different programme, a later start, or a change in plans around children. The important thing is that the compromise is chosen together, rather than quietly becoming one person’s sacrifice. Tell her plainly what pursuing this degree means to you, and ask what she needs in order to feel secure about the family future she wants. Then work through the real options together. If you both want to stay together, this is a conversation about building a life as a team not deciding whose dream matters more.

[u/Quick-Persimmon5935]

First, divorce yourself from the idea that your worth is tied to your job. Loving what you do is great, but it sounds like you’re choosing to see competition and feel inadequate rather than be content with where you are, which undermines the (amazing) benefit of not hating your vocation.

Next, decide if you love her more than your ambition. If so, go where she goes and work to make opportunity for yourself. If not, ask (nicely) if she’s willing to give distance a try should the need arise. Communicate openly and often wherever you land.

Finally (not really, but we’re summing up here), follow the long-term money. After bouncing around awhile, most academics end up somewhere for years at a time. If she has a stable income, you have more freedom to learn your region, make contacts, go to school, pivot, and otherwise find ways to contribute to a life that authentically matches your priorities.

If the relationship wins out over its circumstances, you have something real, lasting, and worth giving up comforts and “dreams” to keep it afloat. And if you’re giving each other deal breakers over still-hypothetical situations, there’s more to figure out before you even arrive at the questions you’re asking.

[u/Eric33co]

This is why I don’t mess with academics. Give me a good old fashion banker any day

[u/Legal-Traffic1997]

This sounds like my life as a woman who's been chasing my biochem degree for two decades, held up by a husband and kids (whom I adore for the record) because there's no real support for a woman once you have kids. I got to help my husband get two master's degrees though, so there's that.

[u/etzpcm]

She is ahead of you on the academic ladder, so it makes sense for you to follow her when she gets a postdoc position. That worked out for us.

[u/DenverLilly]

Idk if you are a man or woman yourself but fwiw, women have been giving up on their dreams to follow men forever. I don’t think it’s a great scenario either way but I think it’s important to note that women have been surviving this scenario for eons

[u/Legal-Traffic1997 → u/DenverLilly]

^this. I'm in this now. He was supported and I helped him, while my stuff was put on hold. It's systemic. We had kids and childcare is so expensive. He was able to get his degrees earlier because his family supported him, and it took me longer because my family didn't want me to and would interfere. Now I'm 49 and still have 36 credits until my biochem bachelors is done. I can only take one or two classes at a time (plus I work only part-time) because of the kids' schedules. It shouldn't be set up to make us choose kids OR academia. Both should be supported together.

[u/despairedmillenial]

I am on the other side, I'm the one on an academic track while my fiance is working on a technical role within academic research. I'm also an immigrant here while he isn't. When I finished my PhD almost 2 years ago and we were having the "what next" discussion, he said to me "we go wherever you want". And while I appreciated it, I knew that he was too important to me to just make decisions and drag him everywhere. So I got a postdoc where we were for a year until I got a postdoc opportunity in another city (which we both really liked and wanted to live in) that was one of the best career steps I could make. He found an even better job because of course, he's awesome and we made the move.

My point being: priorities and mutual consideration. I wouldn't move us around the country or the continent on a whim because he has a life as well and I don't want to constantly change it. But on the other hand, he knows how hard I worked and fully accepts that this is part of our lives if I continue in academia. We both have decided that, unless it is brief, we don't want to be away from each other or in a LDR so we communicate very clearly and very directly.

And we plan. For example, I have been clear that I need to consider a couple neighbouring countries after this position for mobility reasons, although it might not be necessary. But I already brought it up, because I started thinking of switching countries after this position. So communicate your feelings and needs and wishes clearly and openly. And be honest about what compromises each of you is willing to make or are absolutely off the table.

[u/Secret_Kale_8229]

My husband and i both have phds, but only he pursued the academic path because he has the knack for it and easily gained tenure. Tenure means he holds the economic stability for our family. If only the academic salaries kept up with inflation i could have enjoyed the soft life of sahm/wife. Alas i am the trailing spouse who instead enjoys the anxieties of at will employment while occasionally teaching a class in my discipline so i can buy expensive shit.

[u/flutterfly28]

Seems like it's your turn to pick where to go next and her turn to follow. PhD/postdoc is generally not a lucrative career path - she should be aware of that. Plus if she wants to get pregnant and have kids right away, she's not going to be the most productive at climbing the ladder anyway. It would be in all of your best interests for you to succeed in your career and not just be dependent on her academic best case scenario magically working out.

[u/GurProfessional9534]

We were in a similar circumstance. It ended up resolving myself when my wife got into a graduate program in the same university I was at. It was one of the top universities in her field with an extremely low acceptance rate, so we were shocked. After that, she works remotely so she has been able to follow me into appointment after appointment across the country while keeping her job.

[u/HotShrewdness]

Honestly, just wanted to commiserate that some of us are going through it. My spouse was patient through my PhD, mostly long distance. But they just went from working fully remote to a dream job in a state I am hating. I'm about to graduate and am applying to academic jobs where we both can tolerate living. But between the market, decisions to have kids, and their job making 2-3x more than mine ever will...we're in a pickle. For now we're waiting to see how the market pans out for me and I'm trying to determine if I want to still be chasing publications for a few years until things improve.

We're just doing the best we can. It's been an eventful 7 years so far! Best of luck to you.

[u/GlobalRonin]

You need to take it in terms to be the "anchor being" in the relationship. You've clearly moved/supported/gone with her whilst she does the PhD... you now need an MSc for similar benefits... unless you're telling me that you need to go to Bangor for your MSc, plan YOUR MOVE and she'll have to limit herself to the uni's within a sensible commute (which may be dozens... from my house I can comfortably commute to 18 quality unis).

[u/robbie_the_cat]

Trailing spouse here.

Early in our relationship, we determined together that she was the horse to bet on in terms of prospects for a TT academic position, so we decided together that we would let our location be determined by her opportunities.

Has this resulted in me looking away from career opportunities I could have pursued? Of course. But I did that anyways, and happily so, because there's so much more to life than a career.

The trick is to realize that you are not defined by your career.

[u/SufficientAd3103]

One strategy could be aiming to move to a large metropolitan area (if you are in the US examples could be SoCal or Bay Area) or areas that are dense in universities to maximize the chances of both of you having a shot. This is what worked for us after 1.5 years of long distance, but my spouse position is still a precarious one so I wouldn't say we are definitely resolved. It is harder to solve a two-body-problem in a small isolated college town unless there are spousal hires available.

Compromise is necessary, think as you are a team. You have been very supportive with your spouse. She also should compromise in some ways so that you can both have a shot at self-actualization. This might mean accepting to do long distance for a limited amount of time, postponing having kids, or focusing the search in specific geographical areas (these are just examples of things people sometimes compromise on, there might be more suited things in your situation). Unfortunately we can't have it all.

Best of luck. It is rough!

[u/Unrelenting_Salsa]

I don't know what you want to hear. There's three realistic options. You work something you're overqualified for with a meh career, she works something she's overqualified for with a meh career, or you two divorce. Only you two can figure out what it's going to be. Or maybe less pessimistically you swap to something that's not credentials heavy but is still a good career.

I can only go off of what you said, but you don't make it sound like you work in something that you can do more or less anywhere in the country which is how the success stories typically happen.

[u/Icyyhanzo]

yall prioritise partnership and relationships so much lol

[u/tidupigu]

Could you have not tried reapplying for the masters programs while boosting your CV and GRE scores?

[u/Longjumping_Eye_3441]

Low-key the reason I wouldn't want to get married or be married during my PhD.