r/Assyria • u/Beneficial-Role1450 • 1d ago

Discussion Kurds and nationalism

have you ever argued with a Kurdish ultranationalist? it may be a stupid question but I am curious

that’s all

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4

u/exotic-epik Turoyo 1d ago

Yea multiple times, they seem to lack brain function or something. Same for every ultranationalist actually, they're all braindead. It's just that there is a shit ton of Kurdish ones. Dk how or why they don't want to cooperate with others despite their greatest feat is having an autonomous province in the big "Iraq"

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

I know there is ultranationalists from every place but Kurds, Turks, and Azeris are the most entitled ones

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u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 1d ago

Wrong we fought for it for years and its 4 provinces not just one we deserve it

3

u/Beneficial-Role1450 17h ago

Well do you realize the land Kurds inhabited was originally built by Assyrians? Give us our state because the Kurdistan region functions like a state but Assyrians don’t have shit

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u/zagrossi 9h ago

No, the Kurds did not steal Assyrian lands. The Assyrians started out in Ashur 110km south of where Mosul is today which is where their ethnogenesis happened. They built an empire and expanded their territory through conquest. They originally came to the mountainous regions up north as conquerers where the biological ancestors of Kurds were already living. Erbil for example was originally the Hurrian city Urbilum which the Assyrians conquered and turned into an Assyrian religious center. The Kurdish ethnogenesis happened right there in what we call Kurdistan when indigenous Hurrians and other groups started asopting a new language and developed the Kurdish identity over 3000 years into what it is today. The Armenian ethnogenesis happened in the same exact way, indigenous Hurrian groups and other groups adopted a new language from the same root source (Indo-European) on their own soil but I never see Assyrians claim that Armenians don’t exist, it’s like you made your own logic that fits your own agenda and then only apply it to Kurds.

If it was up to me there would be an independent Kurdistan and an independent Assyrian state around Mosul and the Nineveh plains. But honestly, how do you expect to support your cause when some Assyrians are incredibly hateful towards Kurds, try to frame us as immigrants in the land our ancestors always lived in and have organized groups dedicated to destroying anything we have achieved and trying to get us back into the hands of the same state that comitted genocide against our people?

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

By that logic how do you expect us to support the Kurdish cause when you guys mock Sayfo, The Fall of our empires, and some even use ISIS to troll Assyrians.

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u/zagrossi 7h ago

I don’t expect you to support the Kurdish cause. In fact, I expect Assyrians to not support our cause because that is usually the case. About ”us” mocking Seyfo, I don’t personally do that and I don’t support it. Any Kurd who glorifies ISIS is an absolute dumbass and maybe not even a Kurd considering that we are their biggest enemies and vice versa. As for mocking the fall of the Assyrian empire that is something Kurds do in retaliation to Assyrian disses in this diss-battle/tiktok beef, these are kids who mock the fall of Assyrians because Assyrians online constantly shit on Kurds and do the same and sometimes even go as far as supporting our (and their own) enemies just to spite us. Most Kurds aren’t like that. When I first learned about Assyrians I was trying to be an ally to you guys, I would leave comments like ”khaya Ashur” under Assyrian posts and sometimes these comments would get hundreds of likes at least half of which were from other Kurds. In real life Kurds were the main ground force against ISIS, the KRG took in hundreds of thousands of Assyrians and other Christian refugees from Iraq and rebuilt destoryed Assyrian Churches.

1

u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 7h ago

Bro can u open ur dms for a moment

1

u/zagrossi 7h ago

Yeah 1sec

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 7h ago

The Kurds shit on Assyrians in Hamidan so obviously we would shit on them what do you expect?

1

u/UnableProduct3616 6h ago

and some even use ISIS to troll Assyrians.

Pretty ironic since Kurds also died at the hands of ISIS. Tells you who these people are. Chronically online people have nothing better to do than mock others. I have seen Tiktok comments and man aren't they another realm: Kurds comment Simko Shkak's photos and Assyrians comment Saddam Hussein's. I haven't seen Instagram Kurdo-Assyrian wars yet tbh. Anyways, I invite you to read this lengthy rant.

The first time I learned about your people was ages ago when I visited some of my relatives in Erbil, and we passed by Ankawa. I was quite young then, so I don't remember much from that time, but my first impression was positive enough for me to take an interest in Assyrian history years later.

Not sure how it went but I decided to look into the history of modern Assyrians. I saw this name thrown around a lot by Assyrians: Fred Aprim. I decided to read some of his studies to learn more about Assyrians, and I saw that he had some about Kurds, so I decided to check them out.

One of the first ones I read went like this:

Mind you, it was a historical paper and in no way related to modern geopolitical tensions.

First paragraph:

Kurdish nationalists are trying to distort history.

I didn't care much about this one but was still confused as to why it would be included in such a study. That is until I reached the end.

Final paragraph:

Kurdish civilians in Halabja deserved to be killed by Saddam in Halabja.

In another one of his studies (also posted on this sub), he argues that Kurds deserved to be chemically bombed in Halabja.

A few months ago, I got interested in Quora, and whenever the questions were about Kurds, I would run into my dear Fred Aprim. The way he talks about Kurds there only alienated me further.

I am pretty sure you might have had similar experiences, but I didn't talk about my minor perspective to dismiss any of your experiences, or the messy past between Kurds and Assyrians. In short, when I tried to learn about Assyrians, all I repeatedly saw was Fred Aprim's utter hatred for Kurds. To me, he only furthered the gap in my knowledge about Assyrians. It seems like he is a respected figure among Assyrians, at least on this sub, so you might be tempted to defend him in your response. If so, I implore you not to try to defend him if you ever reply to my comment lol. Let's agree to disagree there.

Anyways, I digressed. My point is that you see ultranationlist Kurds. I see ultranationlist Assyrians. Like what someone else commented here, all ultranationlists are dumb. If we continue hating each other because these ultranationlists can't get a job, then no progress will be made. How I see it is that these ultranationlists are in a boxing ring fighting each other, and most of us are the spectators on the stands arguing because of what we see inside the ring. Outide this arena are the actual events. If even a few of the spectators left the arena to cooperate outside, positive results will be seen. The best thing is not to allow the ultranationlists to be the ones outside who engage in real change.

Finally, the future of Assyrians and Kurds is still unknown. We, in the present, can decide to change it for the better or for worse. So, even this simple interaction of ours is contributing to that future.

1

u/Beneficial-Role1450 6h ago

I have the solution for the conflict: REMOVE HAWPA PERMANENTLY. Disbanding it obviously did nothing

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u/UnableProduct3616 6h ago

Well, my comment was all about us being the spectators (right now). Hawpa is another example of the ultranationlists escaping the ring if you get what I mean. What other solution do you have in mind?

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 4h ago

Without Hawpa there is no problem 

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u/UnableProduct3616 7m ago

There is no official HAWPA party anymore, as I'm sure you know. But, I do know what you mean by this comment. You are probably referring to their backwards mentality that cannot simply be disbanded or removed from the face of the Earth.

This is probably what you are thinking of right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/Assyria/s/EssXZRpw5U

My guy, I could also send you as many Telegram channels and social media posts where people openly plan and celebrate the next Kurdish genocide. If our metric for progress is through these chronically online groups, then the best solution would be to shut down the Internet worldwide because similar scumbags unsurprisingly exist in every corner of the world and are not limited to one ethnicity. There are still people online who openly praise and call for the return of Hitler and ISIS, but they obviously don't reflect everyday society.

I don't think putting these people in the spotlight is the right way to look at it. These people are attention-seeking maniacs, so they thrive and grow when they know such attention is on them. Awareness about such extremists is fine, but putting them at the center of the stage is too much attention diverted away from things that actually matter.

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u/im_alliterate Nineveh Plains 7h ago

We are the minority facing persecution from your militia and government. Dont victim blame us for having a negative response to Kurds online when we’ve faced hundreds of years of oppression from Kurds.

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u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 17h ago

Bruh what do u want me to do i dont have power work in your community and demand rights from krg and iraq im not against yall having autonomy

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

Of course you’re not the government is 

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u/exotic-epik Turoyo 1d ago

Dude i could careless you're missing the point

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u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 1d ago

Seems like ure whining that we have an autonomous region we gained it for fighting for our rights and negotiating

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u/exotic-epik Turoyo 1d ago

My point was that kurdish ultranationalists talk online and constantly spread hate aswell as promoting a greater kurdistan (they act like kurds have a big ass 50000000 square foot empire)
I really dont care abt ur autonomous regions bro good for u

2

u/randy4thquarter 1d ago

lol wym "fighting" u guys became canon fodder and aided super powers by dying on the ground. that's how u got ur region. aye games the game tho respect

-1

u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 1d ago

We fought for over 90 years against the british and iraq????

I could say u guys were canon fodder for russians in ww1 and we were for the ottomans u could say anything

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u/olapooza 1d ago

They should have a state and we should have our own

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u/randy4thquarter 1d ago

y should they and y should we. most of our ppl are living comfortable in USA and other european nations with businesses or are farming checks off their government. As for they kurds they incite rebellion in every nation they are apart of. you support that?

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u/olapooza 1d ago

We’re comfortable until we assimilate and are only Assyrian by name…

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u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 1d ago

Most people in iraq refere to u guys as “Christians” now the average guy u meet on the street wouldnt know what assyrian is

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u/randy4thquarter 20h ago

ngl bro no one in the west knows what Kurds r either

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u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 18h ago

🧂🧂🧂

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 17h ago

Kurds only cause trouble I expect them to have a rebellion later on this year. The difference is Assyrians don’t cause trouble as much as the Kurds do. In fact the Kurds being rude and their trouble has lowkey led me to an anti Kurdish sentiment 

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u/randy4thquarter 17h ago

Exactly. you will learn this as you grow. It's the only reason Sadam loved and appreciated us and its because we don't cause trouble.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

Yeah and the only reason he accepted Tariq Aziz as foreign minister too.

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u/randy4thquarter 6h ago

Exactly bro you can’t trust an Arab Muslim with geopolitics. Those guys barely know how to even handle politics amongst their own

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 6h ago

They can’t even solve Morocco and Algeria or Saudi Arabia and Yemen 

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u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 16h ago

“Causing trouble” is demanding our rights ig

This is why u wont get anywhere was the guy u have on ur pfp worried about causing trouble when he fought the ottomans?

Dont see ur peoples needs and asking for them as something bad and troublesom u wont get anywhere sitting by idly and hating on others

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

The guy I have on my profile picture protected the Assyrian people and the Kurds have done more rebellions compared to pretty much anyone

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u/Training_Look_1400 Kurdish 8h ago

And im proud we did that much rebellions for our cause and i respect the guy u have on ur profile

My point is do not see ppl’s struggles as troublemaking

If every minority in iraq gets arabized and assyrians do a rebellion defending themselves from arabization would u call that troublemaking?

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 7h ago

No and the difference is that the Kurds end up also attacking minorities.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 17h ago

Do you even remember what happened when the Medes attacked the Assyrians?

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u/zagrossi 12h ago

Dude the ancient Assyrian empire was so brutal that several surrounding civilisations including the Medes teamed up to defeat it. And we didn’t come to the area after you. Assyrians themselves came as conquerers from Ashur and conquered the mountainous territory where the biological ancestors of the Kurds were already living.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

Ok let’s use a Kurdish empire for example like let’s say Ayyubids. They were also brutal what’s your point?

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u/zagrossi 8h ago

My point is that you can’t expect people to not fight back when your empire is terrorizing them. You claim the Ayyubids were also brutal, I didn’t know that but I believe you because every historic empire was brutal to a certain degree. But it can’t be on the same level, The Assyrian empire was so brutal that the Bible itself strongly condemns it whereas Salahudin the founder of the Ayyubid empire was admired by his own people and even his crusader enemies because of how honourable he was. I’m not making that up because he was a Kurd, it’s actually true look it up.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 7h ago

I hate the ancient Assyrian empire btw cuz their leader mocked god

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u/zagrossi 12h ago

Yes as a Kurd I agree with you.

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u/mentalmike9 Kurdish 1d ago

I think Kurds and Assyrians should work together instead of waging ethnic warfare on tiktok and Instagram comment sections

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u/im_alliterate Nineveh Plains 1d ago

Lol we are the persecuted minority; we’d be happy to work alongside kurds to build neighboring states. But i keep havjng to remove inflammatory posts here from kkurds trying to stir shit up here by posting praise for simko shikak

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 17h ago

Exactly and they think 750k Assyrians died in Sayfo and mock these deaths. I hope they realize the deaths of Kurds in Cilovluq and Rawandiz etc was caused by their favorite Sayfo

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u/im_alliterate Nineveh Plains 16h ago

I think the scholarly accepted number is closer to 250K. But ya.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

The number is 250k-300k but they yap about “B-bbbbut 750k killed”

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u/zagrossi 12h ago

Dude… we want to work woth Assyrians too, personally I have tried to befriend Assyrians and I have definetely had some wonderful conversations with good Assyrians but the majority of them hate our guts in my experience. And I’m sorry about Kurds coming in here to mock you, I don’t support that but these are kids who think there is some sort of street gang beef between Kurds and Assyrians. I see many Assyrians do these things too and I keep having to defend kurdish nativeness to Assyrians who believe we came from India or something to steal all their land, not only that but actual organized Assyrian groups do things like protest in the streets of the US trying to frame Kurds as terrorists and trying to destroy the only security we have (KRG).

1

u/im_alliterate Nineveh Plains 7h ago

Ive had to ban a lot of your compatriots that come and troll in here praising simko and hawpa

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u/randy4thquarter 1d ago

so go advocate for it on social media. your bros run loose on there

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 17h ago

It could’ve been possible if Hawpa never existed and Sayfo didn’t either

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u/khwarism 11h ago

As a Kurd, that crowd is really stupid. They hate on Assyrians, they praise genocide, meanwhile their lives are miserable all because of other Kurds who rule over them. Any people ultra-nationalism is dumb imo.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

We need more Kurds like you because if we didn’t anti Kurdish sentiment would be higher 

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u/Maximum-Society-6971 9h ago

In my experience with the peoples of this region, the group I have found most prone to denying and distorting the image of the Assyrians is the Kurds. Any claims to the contrary made by some here are nothing more than empty talk. As an Assyrian, I have no interest in their cause or their problems; my only concern is the land of Assyria and how to preserve our homeland—a land they are currently occupying. We have no need for a relationship with them; what we need is to learn how to defend ourselves.

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u/OpenTurnover5926 1d ago

As an Assyrian, I believe the only way we can have our own autonomous region is by cooperating with the Kurds. They are more open minded than the Arab Moslem. I know there is a lot of bad history between us, but time has changed.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 1d ago

And guess what Hawpa is trying to ruin every effort for normalizing of relations between Assyrians and Kurds There are still many fans of Simko Shikak  They don’t respect us

1

u/randy4thquarter 1d ago

lol wtf r u saying bro. Assyrians r braindead. we will never have a nation because we r Christians in the middle east. Kufar r the first targets in any conflict. if kurds werent muslim the same atrocities would've happened to them. If you want to go home pick your side and thats it. for me I pick the arabs. kurds can show themselves to be democratic and what not but you don't know how they would act if they had their own nation

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u/zagrossi 12h ago

That’s funny because under central Arab rule, Syriac schools were banned and Iraq’s Christian population collapsed from 1.5 million to under 150,000.

As soon as Kurds gained self-rule in Northern Iraq (1991), they immediately opened state-funded Syriac public schools, and in 2014 sheltered over 150,000 Christian refugees while helping rebuild destroyed churches. In Rojava, Syriac is an official state language, and Assyrians co-govern and command their own military units (Sutoro).

Assyrians have had and still have more rights under Kurdish governments than Iraq, Syra, Turkey, Iran. But sure man go pick the people who persecuted your people the same way they did mine and look down on you but claim your history when it’s convenient.

1

u/ethos847 1d ago

It’s easy to want to participate it in it, but just don’t. I don’t just preach tolerance, I actively participate in it. I think we should all work together all religions and people of Iraq, from Kurds, Arabs, Assyrians, Yazidis, etc.

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 17h ago

I mean the Yazidis and Assyrians are allies but the Kurds need to clean up their act. Remember Sayfo or the clashes between Assyrians and Kurds in the 1800’s. The only time we work together is when fighting the Iraqi gov.

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u/Samrazzleberry Nineveh Plains 22h ago

Good luck chuck

1

u/zagrossi 12h ago

I don’t know if you would consider me an ultra-nationalist. But I’m definetely a nationalist Kurd and if you have any questions that I can answer you can ask me.

1

u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

Do you think the Sayfo was a good thing? Because many Kurdish people mock it just for the fun of it and make Simko Shikak edits

1

u/zagrossi 8h ago

No, I think Seyfo was a horrible genocide that claimed more than 1 million innocent lives, had devastating consequences for entire cultures and should never be forgotten. Yes I know about Simko edits, I don’t support that kind of behaviour. It’s mostly kids who think we have some street beef with Assyrians but I see Assyrian kids (probably) doing that too, in both cases it’s wrong.

1

u/Beneficial-Role1450 7h ago

Sayfo only claimed 250k but that’s still not good. But if we had more Kurds like you I would actually advocate for a Kurdish state

0

u/OkJuggernaut992 17h ago

Yes as a armanian kurd, overall i believe the assaryian and kurdish cause is basically a singular cause. When you actually think about it

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u/Beneficial-Role1450 17h ago

If the Kurds and Assyrians have a cause together then I don’t want any Kurdish ultranationalist Simko fans to be a part of it

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u/OkJuggernaut992 17h ago

That is fair point, Simmons was part of the assaryian genocide backed by kurds. Which i do not support. But most kurdish tribes were aginst it and supported assaryians. As I rember my family for example talking about how we're bot really 100 percent kurdish but rally a mix of assaryian kurds and assaryians

1

u/OkJuggernaut992 17h ago

The reason we majority to kurmanji was because of forced assimilation acted on us by turks and arabs were we could barly keep our majority culture which was kurdish. My parents for example after coming to the uk could properly learn kurdish which they taught me and my siblings. Which I want to learn also syriac aramic as thats the part where my family is from and if possible learn western armanian which where alot of my family is from.

1

u/OkJuggernaut992 17h ago

As if you ever go to derik you would see all its beuty there till now

1

u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

There were some Kurdish tribes against it I know

1

u/OkJuggernaut992 7h ago

Thank you for that as theres always both good and evil

1

u/Beneficial-Role1450 7h ago

But still I am not hating on all Kurds I am hating on those ultranationalists that glaze Simko Shikak and think Hawpa will do something 

1

u/OkJuggernaut992 6h ago

I know and I also agree with you. As they destroy everything we stand for espically for me as i love my armanian and armanian heritage as well. Because im proud of my history

1

u/Beneficial-Role1450 6h ago

I’m also Armenian like 3%

0

u/Zheer_son 12h ago

Idiots, idiots, idiots! If we oppose Kurds simply because we are Assyrians, or oppose Assyrians simply because we are Kurds, when will we ever learn? Isn’t it time we moved forward? Regardless of the circumstances, Kurds are more open-minded about accepting Assyrians than Arabs and Turks are. The past was painful, but we are not living in the past anymore.

1

u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

Tell this all to Hawpa bruda 

-2

u/Ezdixan 16h ago

You guys are far less imporatant than you think to global powers and even to the Kurds.

Kurds don't need you. Kurds have enough people ont heir own.

You don't have enough people who live together...

3

u/Beneficial-Role1450 8h ago

And we don’t need you 😂 remember when we fought the ottomans barely with any help in majority battles like the battle of Suldouze, battle of Seray mountains, etc. We don’t need you Kurds either

-1

u/Ezdixan 7h ago edited 6h ago

Lol, how many of you guys are even left in Iraq? You have no power whatsoever and can't make a dent in anything.

You guys have zero political power, zero financial power (soft power), and zero hard power (in terms of numbers). And I don't think you'll ever achieve any of those. You're slowly assimilating into the Western world and dying out as a distinct community.

In the eyes of the world, you're seen as nothing more than Christian Arabs. There's nothing particularly unique about that, and there are already larger Christian Arab communities in Israel, Lebanon, and elsewhere.

.

At least my Ezdi people have (unlike Assyrians) their own separate and isolated region in Shengal (where we can survive), and our population is growing rapidly there due to high birth rates.