r/AustralianMilitary • u/Superest22 • 4d ago
Guide/Help PSA for Reservists: Backpay is not a thing, don't stopgap short notice requirements.
Hey team, strap in.
I raise this as I am lucky that my one-up atm is a senior officer and they are going to try and sort it for me. Your average Joe or Jane Bloggs would be screwed.
Long story short, I am stopgapping a position and working directly for a senior officer that needed short term, short notice support (I was told about a month before starting). I have been in the position for a few weeks now.
I was randomly discussing another matter today with Career Management on Skype, and asked when I could expect my first pay to come through (fully accepting that it would take a couple more weeks).
Instead I was told that:
- Reserve days now goes through 2-3 levels of approval before being granted "due to budgetary reasons"
- It does not matter what days are on an AE959 or any other verbal or written agreement
- You can start work and get paid for days only after you receive a confirmation email from CM
- Said confirmation email can take anywhere from 2 to 5 weeks to come through, after a posting request is made (timeframe for this was about a week and a bit after unit and I submitted everything).
- My senior officer is naturally pissed that I haven't yet been paid and amazed that I was told that I wouldn't be getting paid for services rendered up until whenever things are approved.
- The EL2 in charge of HR confirmed that's the process and asked if the guy I replaced said I could work (noting this very same EL2 processed and assisted with all the paperwork but never mentioned anything).
Now I understand some will be fully across this. However many will not and will trust what senior officers and pers admin personnel tell them. It is deeply concerning that I was working, had access codes etc etc and have only now, from a fluke conversation, been informed that I won't get paid. The comms and clarity regarding this are shocking.
Luckily my employer provides substantial Reserve leave. If they did not I would be seriously out of pocket and screwed.
Now, my Senior Officer might be able to sort it for me, but the cheery manner the Career Management NCO told me I wouldn't be paid as well as the comment from the EL2 (despite them knowing I was in the office the whole time) is absolutely woeful. The boss will be talking to them.
Noting that this was an urgent requirement, required clearances etc, and we did paperwork as expediatently as could be expected, how on earth does Defence envision that it can use Reservists to stopgap short term and short notice requirements. Is this not a key point of having a Reserve workforce? If it takes a month or longer for all the approvals to occur, and it can't be backdated, what's the bloody point? Just let someone's pay be backdated ffs.
To volunteer your time and for services/employment rendered and be told that you won't get paid for any of it despite filling in all the forms and doing what, to the best of your and your CoC knowledge seems incredibly wrong.
Hopefully my boss can sort it.
What a kick in the teeth and a very timely reminder as to why I got out just as I was enjoying my first reserves rotation.
Anyway, rant over. Any reservists on here, don't do a lick of anything or take Reserve Leave from work until you get the Career Management confirmation several weeks after all other forms are submitted. AE585s and 959s and 'required start date is this' don't mean jack apparently.
Ty for listening to Ted Talk Rant.
36
u/CombatQuokka69 4d ago
Email RUTHLESS
32
u/Superest22 4d ago
Had to look that one up. Interesting concept if they’re actually actioning things?
‘Reducing Unnecessary Tasks to Help Lethality, Efficiency and Strategic Success’ for anyone else that doesn’t know.
20
u/CombatQuokka69 4d ago edited 4d ago
They publish a list of closed and open projects on the intranet and in the Army News each month. Seems to be making progress
9
u/BeShaw91 Littoral 4d ago
It’s absolutely making process. It’s just little things that are smoothing out the edges rather than big announcements. Which is excellent, because there needs to be a process to do that which Army hasn’t really got at a Army wide level.
I love it. I think it’s one of the best thing Army has done for a while.
2
u/sadboyoclock 4d ago
Wage theft is a Crime punishable by sodomy. Report this to human rights commission asap
32
u/CharacterPop303 🇨🇳 4d ago
If defence piss about to much, it somewhat sounds like wage theft which would have civilian consequences. God knows how much that might cost to peruse.
6
u/Superest22 4d ago
Yeh hopefully it get sorted at ‘lowest’ level but if not I’ll absolutely be doing a ROG, writing to ombudsman and local member etc.
Hopefully none of that is required due to rank of my one-up. Still a fucked situation though and ridiculous they have have a no back pay rule. Even more ridiculous how woeful their comms are.
24
u/Nicko_89 4d ago
If they don't get it sorted as part of bau I would file a redress of grievance and then if that fails refer the matter to the Commonwealth ombudsman. Bullshit red tape isn't an excuse for wage theft.
10
u/Superest22 4d ago
Yeh my wife was incensed, as was boss to their credit.
Even by social contract standards it’s open and shut. I did work, I should be compensated for work.
1
u/kangareddit 3d ago
Yep, if not sorted timely. Do a RoG through CoC. The inquiries should iron it out (aka ruffle enough feathers to fix it).
11
u/roundingcapehorn 4d ago
I was once paid for a weekend I didn’t even go to so swings and roundabouts? 😂
4
10
u/Curious_Yoghurt_7439 4d ago
Just stop working now. As in don't go into work tomorrow. Go back to your civilian job. And let them know you will come back when they sort their shit out. Not being paid means that DFDA does not apply.
4
u/Superest22 4d ago
Yeh boss obviously doesn’t expect me in tomorrow or until he sorts it and lets me know.
I’ll take the day/few off and be on standby. If nothing by end of week I’ll be going back to normal work.
24
u/Worldly_Tomorrow_869 4d ago
This is just messed up. Defence likes to make up it's own rules, but I suspect the optics of just not paying someone who was requested to work by someone higher in their chain of command would see the matter sorted out.
7
u/Puzzleheaded-Pie-277 Royal Australian Navy 4d ago
In saying all that, when they want to they can pull their thumbs out. I had days approved last year in less than half a day to start the following day. On the flip side, waited three months for paperwork to be actioned for this FY.
8
u/TangoTwoTwo 4d ago
I sometimes forget how lucky I am to be at a training command with a seemingly unlimited Reserve budget and a lack of posted staff.
7
u/Fair_Standard8900 4d ago
No posting, no pay, no protection; as a reservist thats something I live by. I have lost count of the times I've been asked to do some work to help out. I've always said I won't work until my posting appears in the LOP, and the RSD's in my PmKeys. I've also had a few run-ins with PNF or even ARA Reg officers that don't comprehend, or simply don't care about the requirements to have my posting approved and promulgated before I can work.
4
u/Superest22 4d ago
Definitely a lesson learnt by me in this instance. First ever reserves gig after a decade in, should have known better than to trust the system.
11
u/Puzzleheaded-Pie-277 Royal Australian Navy 4d ago
Not only all of that but if you had been injured at work, you wouldn’t have been covered. Any WHS exposures also, not covered.
6
u/Superest22 4d ago
Yep the NCO cheerfully said to me “you can’t have been working because if something happened to you Defence can’t be held liable”
I said “yep sure I won’t trip over and go whinge to medical, but I would expect to still get paid for a day/weeks work noting this is the first I’m hearing of this!”
Noting I outrank them as well ffs
4
u/kangareddit 3d ago
NCO is so wrong. Look up WHS Acts and WorkSafe. If you’re at a workplace, regardless of pay fuck arounds, you’re covered.
0
6
u/fishboard88 Army Veteran 4d ago
The boss will be talking to them.
Could your boss please make arrangements for me to be a fly on the wall? No practical reason, I just thrive off seeing people getting appropriately roasted
0
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/Superest22 4d ago
I’d think a SLG officer and their team would have confirmed this with me and CM rather than stating everything was in order and making sure I started work on a set date. Instead sending several things off the day I hoto’d and started work. I just wanted to do some stuff in uniform.
The position would not have been filled if they had to wait a month in the first place.
As I said, ack this might be a known thing, but as reservists we should be able to trust the system and to not have backpay allowed despite if a unit needs and can fund it is just fucking dumb. But yes next time I won’t be submitting leave or anything until I hear from CM. Not that I’ll be checking DPN frequently either because why tf should I.
But cheers for shifting it on me I guess.
1
u/HecticOnsen 4d ago
Yeah i'm not trying to kick you while down, sorry if it sounded like that...
Your sponsor had to explicitly acknowledge that they would not employ you until they had authorisation (and you had to acknowledge that as well, but I get that you would trust your CoC on this point). With that in mind, some of the comments on here are not great advice - if you pursue this through an RoG/media/minister etc, your sponsor (presumably your boss) will get flayed for allowing this to happen. Its your CoC who is in the wrong here, for not following the process that is explicitly laid out for reserve employment. There is no mechanism within the act to backpay, and its very hard to backdate postings, so it will end up being a shitstorm raining down on them. It will definitely get you paid, but its not going to be a fun experience for anyone and if you actually like the people involved (or want to keep doing reserve time in the future with them) then you may not want this outcome.
Alternatively... just wait for the posting to come through, then put in the days that you worked at the front or back end or on days you're not working. Your boss does not have to have an unwinnable fight with his CoC or draw heat, and you ultimately get paid for the time you worked. And if those days happened to be after 5 november and you end up with an extra 3% then that might make up for your anguish.
I dunno how many days you requested, but my sponsor requested 100 and got 40, so also make sure you're not ending up in a situation where you keep working and then the unit doesn't get enough days approved to cover your commitment because that will be another headache.
2
u/Superest22 4d ago
Yeh sorry let a long day get to me a bit in my reply there.
Imagine they’ll just fudge the days if that’s the easiest course. Though that’s wild to me as well rather than just simply backdating.
Genuinely don’t understand how this doesn’t severely limit defence capability. Ack the wait times are apparently new due to the substantial budget cuts being put on defence for this and next FY.
4
u/GerardTheButler 4d ago
I've observed ARES and RAAF Res personnel try to work with the system and get paid. Calling it disgraceful is an understatement.
1
u/Puzzleheaded-Pie-277 Royal Australian Navy 3d ago
Yeah I asked for 50 and got 25. It’s now at 15 left so have submitted the form for the other 25 now. I think they just wanted to make sure I’d use them. Will see how long it takes em, took 3 months to get those 25 days.
2
u/AustralianMilitary-ModTeam 4d ago
We are not a substitute for the DRN, asking your CoC, or exercising common sense.
35
u/goat_action Army Veteran 4d ago
Mate, this is a tale as old as the Reserves themselves. There's always some cunt, somewhere, trying to go jack on some poor choc who was asked to work, did work and did everything right. That particular cunt is usually far removed from anything to do with the work, the choc, the CoC or anything of value really (hence why they are just a cunt, and almost certainly a useless cunt of no value except in their own mind).
Im not sure of your rank but either way, if this doesn't get sorted rather quickly, don't threaten anything, just action something. That something is an email to your higher HQ etc. Even better if you happen across a Div RSM, BRIG or Gen visiting and can get in their ear and ask them about said policy and relay your experience. You can also send an email to you local member and let them know the dire situation.
The point is, eyes on gets it sorted quick as nobody wants to be be 'that guy/girl'. There is constantly morons trying to do reserves out of pay for this very reason and it's usually for their own twisted moral compass or whatever. Fuck em.