China’s High-Speed Rail is Unaffordable Relative to Locals’ Incomes

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27

u/porncollecter69 Sep 08 '26

You’re right.

That’s why buses and sleeper buses still exist and cheaper trains still exist.

They’re also not competing with each other, I’ve heard that HSR competition is actually mid range flights within China. People rather take that than plane.

If price is too expensive then it drastically limits the options for travel but it’s still there.

5

u/Pristine-Code-2532 Sep 08 '26

They're not that right, their benchmark only includes long distance trains which most people aren't doing on a regular basis, OP isn't acknowledging that many people use the HSR for short journeys, like within the same province, which is much more affordable

11

u/cnio14 Italy Sep 08 '26

I think the price to salary ratio is not usually why people praise China's HSR. It's mostly about its quality and convenience, which puts even other HSR systems from more developed countries to shame. Also I'm quite sure the aim of the government is to build all this infrastructure in advance, well knowing that salaries and living conditions will rise eventually even in the more economically depressed areas.

16

u/fidorulz Sep 08 '26

Few questions for you.

1-Do you think people travel between cities on a daily basis with high speed rail?

2-Also for comparison lets say you take Shijiazhuang to Wuhan distance you wrote of 899km and 3hrs the equivalent in the US in terms of distance would be Boston, Massachusetts to Richmond, Virginia. I checked current prices and lowest price is 241$ US and its 10hrs vs 3hrs of train time since there are no direct trains and thats one way

Now if you are going to compare the lowest income people in china then lets do the same for the US then yes it maybe a little more expensive but not by much. Also since the trains are direct in the examples you provided time saved is almost triple vs the equivalent in the US

So is it dirt cheap? No but is it good to have when needed and priced reasonably for the service it offers? I would say yes

7

u/aquacakra Sep 08 '26

I'm Guangzhou, hotel receptionist after tax salary is about 3000 and that's a tier 1 city. 5 star hotel. so, government statistics is only to look good for outsider. if you compare $1 = €1= ¥1, china is very very expensive.

2

u/PeteMaverickMitcheIl Sep 08 '26

Is that 3000 RMB a month?

2

u/aquacakra Sep 08 '26

yupppp

4

u/gandhiwarlord Sep 08 '26

"if you compare $1 = €1= ¥1, china is very very expensive." -excuse me what? Are you suggesting to discard exchange rates and just look at everything in nominal values?

3

u/GuaSukaStarfruit Sep 08 '26

Other than American earning a lot, but let’s say you earn 2k British pound in UK, in China you earn about 4K RMB for the same job. There are exchange rates difference but we have to choose relative to income.

2

u/aquacakra Sep 08 '26

yuppp. that's what I meant. Person in US earn $3,000 and in China earn ¥3,000

Starbucks $5 or so vs ¥25

KFC $10 vs ¥20 or more

Bar cocktail $20 vs ¥50

New York Washington flight can be as low as $79?

Guangzhou Shanghai flight as low as ¥400

and so on and so on

1

u/fourunderthebridge Sep 09 '26

Yeah but I'm not sure hotel receptionists in the US make $3000 after tax. Plus if you compare Starbucks to Starbucks, sure. But they have cheaper alternatives like Luckin coffee, and local restaurants. You can get a pretty good meal for 10 yuan or so at the right spot, while it's pretty hard to go below $10 per meal in the US.

1

u/aquacakra Sep 09 '26

just saying the spending power of 1 to 1. and 10 rmb meal? lunch dinner? I believe super extremely rare in larger cities in china. one meat bun from 7-11is now 7rmb, medium size.

2

u/fourunderthebridge Sep 09 '26

Hmm idk I did see some 10rmb meal from time to time in Chengdu, and it's a pretty major city.

I do agree that China isn't as affordable as westerners like to claim though. But that's just the realities of most Asian countries.

0

u/rice007 Sep 08 '26

Tell me you don't know ppp without telling me you don't know ppp

7

u/Good_Magazine5758 Sep 08 '26

The Shinkansen prices in Japan is even worst. 😭

0

u/SpendPerfect5933 Sep 08 '26

But the Japanese have much higher incomes

3

u/Good_Magazine5758 Sep 08 '26

COL is much higher in Japan

1

u/GuaSukaStarfruit Sep 08 '26

We talking about 1-1 comparison. Chinese aren’t earning Japanese salary

7

u/Good_Magazine5758 Sep 08 '26

2 hour Shinkansen ride is about almost $100. Much more than Chinese trains.

6

u/ajping Sep 08 '26

It's hard to get a reservation though. Those trains are full of Chinese people. College students and Tier 1 city dwellers I assume. But you have to book early. And they're not jammed full of foreign tourists.

6

u/Pristine-Code-2532 Sep 08 '26 edited Sep 08 '26

All of your examples are pretty long distant trips, I imagine most high speed rail usage is actually pretty localized, within the same province etc. I use the high speed train for 20-30 minute journeys all the time and it's like 30rmb. Most Chinese people aren't often taking the train from Xi'an to Chengdu or Nanning to Changsha. How often do you think the average Chinese person is taking a 4 hour train?

7

u/KW_ExpatEgg China Sep 08 '26

OP, I think you're using the incorrect metric.

If I want to go from Beijing to Xi'an, three of the ways are HSR, sleeper train, and a flight.

The people who choose the HSR are the same ones who could choose to fly, not the ones whose budget demands they get the sleeper (and a standing ticket).

4

u/giordano709 Sep 08 '26

It is not daily trips, it's very long distance travel, only that the speed is so fast that make it look like casual trips. It is actually no much different from airport ticket, you save money for long distance travel.

4

u/GetOutOfTheWhey Sep 08 '26

I know that China has slower trains that are cheaper. That’s not what I am talking about here though. My point is that China’s fastest and most convenient intercity transportation can be expensive relative to ordinary incomes. Having a cheaper, much slower alternative doesn’t make the HSR fare affordable.

Thats the problem your narrative falls apart if you talk about those.

Gaotie is a high speed intercity transport. You pay more for those than sleeper trains or regional trains.

Furthermore under those same metrics the gaotie is more affordable than Japan's shinkansen and Germany's ICE.

5

u/anuser123 Sep 08 '26

If it's unaffordable why are the seats always filled

5

u/cnio14 Italy Sep 08 '26

Because China's population is very large and the upper middle class, while still being a fraction of the population, is already a lot of people. Also the income distribution is very uneven in China. Urban population from the big cities is vastly richer than their countryside peers, so if you travel mostly around large urban areas you'll see fuller trains.

4

u/anuser123 Sep 08 '26

Exactly, so not sure what the point of OPs post is. Point is, there's enough people in China to fill those trains. Obviously some may not be able to afford it, but most can. Even farmers from rural areas take the train daily to sell their harvests in city centers.

3

u/Prowlbeast Sep 08 '26

Asking that in a country of a billion people is stupid. Because my trains ive taken recently are definitely not “full” and… not everyone is poor? Obviously many make stable incomes, many also do not

1

u/DaimonHans Sep 08 '26

Everything good China has is unaffordable to the plebs.

8

u/gaoshan United States Sep 08 '26

The parks in Hangzhou are numerous, beautiful, well maintained, relaxing and completely free.

1

u/AutoModerator Sep 08 '26

NOTICE: See below for a copy of the original post by CarlosDanger8420 in case it is edited or deleted.

China’s high-speed rail network is amazing. It is also typically cheap if you are coming from a developed country when you factor in your salary. However, if you factor in local Chinese people’s income, it is expensive relative to their salaries. Here are some examples of one-way prices between many tier 2 and 3 cities for economy seats. The prices, and trip times, do vary slightly from day to day and train to train. The prices are from China’s official train website.

Shijiazhuang to Wuhan: 3 hours; 395–500 for G trains.
Harbin to Dalian: 4 hours; approximately 430.
Xi’an to Chengdu: 4 hours; 260–280.
Jinan to Zhengzhou: 2–4 hours; 230–320.
Nanning to Changsha: 5 hours; 330–400 for cheaper tickets; some outliers are over 500.

Now let’s turn to average income. https://www.stats.gov.cn/sj/zxfb/202605/t20260515_1963707.html. This is a link to Chinese government statistics about income. The average urban private sector employee makes around 71,590, which is just under 6000 per month.

https://tjj.wuhan.gov.cn/tjfw/tjgb/202604/t20260408_2750693.shtml This is a link to Wuhan statistics, a city I used. In Wuhan, an average worker’s disposable income is 5604 per month.

https://www.sjz.gov.cn/columns/3b027198-9da1-4d9f-90e5-278a79356d57/202605/26/ef0e7319-722e-4588-ad83-82a69809b9b7.html This is Shijiazhuang, another city I mentioned. The average worker’s disposable income is 4380 per month.

In the countryside, many people make under 2000 per month. This means a round trip ticket for a family of 3 on a high speed train could exceed their entire monthly income. Even in urban areas, a round trip ticket for a single person can easily approach close to 20% of the person’s disposable income, depending on the city and route.

I already know some people will say tickets are expensive in another country. I’m not saying that China is uniquely expensive. I’m arguing that a 400 one way ticket is expensive relative to a 4,000–5,000 monthly disposable income. If you think that’s wrong, show me the income-to-fare comparison rather than telling me another country is expensive.

I know that China has slower trains that are cheaper. That’s not what I am talking about here though. My point is that China’s fastest and most convenient intercity transportation can be expensive relative to ordinary incomes. Having a cheaper, much slower alternative doesn’t make the HSR fare affordable.

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1

u/AutoModerator Sep 08 '26

NOTICE: This post has been modified. See below for a copy of the updated content.

China’s high-speed rail network is amazing. It is also typically cheap if you are coming from a developed country when you factor in your salary. However, if you factor in local Chinese people’s income, it is expensive relative to their salaries. Here are some examples of one-way prices between many tier 2 and 3 cities for economy seats. The prices, and trip times, do vary slightly from day to day and train to train. The prices are from China’s official train website.

Shijiazhuang to Wuhan: 3 hours; 395–500 for G trains.
Harbin to Dalian: 4 hours; approximately 430.
Xi’an to Chengdu: 4 hours; 260–280.
Jinan to Zhengzhou: 2–4 hours; 230–320.
Nanning to Changsha: 5 hours; 330–400 for cheaper tickets; some outliers are over 500.

Now let’s turn to average income. https://www.stats.gov.cn/sj/zxfb/202605/t20260515_1963707.html. This is a link to Chinese government statistics about income. The average urban private sector employee makes around 71,590, which is just under 6000 per month.

https://tjj.wuhan.gov.cn/tjfw/tjgb/202604/t20260408_2750693.shtml This is a link to Wuhan statistics, a city I used. In Wuhan, an average worker’s disposable income is 5604 per month.

https://www.sjz.gov.cn/columns/3b027198-9da1-4d9f-90e5-278a79356d57/202605/26/ef0e7319-722e-4588-ad83-82a69809b9b7.html This is Shijiazhuang, another city I mentioned. The average worker’s disposable income is 4380 per month.

In the countryside, many people make under 2000 per month. This means a round trip ticket for a family of 3 on a high speed train could exceed their entire monthly income. Even in urban areas, a round trip ticket for a single person can easily approach close to 20% of the person’s disposable income, depending on the city and route.

I already know some people will say tickets are expensive in another country. I’m not saying that China is uniquely expensive. I’m arguing that a 400 one way ticket is expensive relative to a 4,000–5,000 monthly disposable income. If you think that’s wrong, show me the income-to-fare comparison rather than telling me another country is expensive.

I know that China has slower trains that are cheaper. That’s not what I am talking about here though. My point is that China’s fastest and most convenient intercity transportation can be expensive relative to ordinary incomes. Having a cheaper, much slower alternative doesn’t make the HSR fare affordable.

Edit: Some people are saying, “If high-speed rail is so expensive, why are the trains always full?” But full trains don’t mean everyone can easily afford them.. People will pay for things that are expensive when they need to travel or when the time savings are worth it. A full train just means enough people are willing and able to pay the fare. It doesn’t tell you how affordable the ticket is for the average person, or how many people decide not to travel because of the cost. The main thing I am getting at is how much that ticket costs compared to what people actually earn.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

u/joe9439 United States Sep 08 '26

For people with those lower incomes time isn’t money. They don’t need the faster speed of the bullet train.

1

u/No_Soy_Colosio Sep 08 '26

China has built amazing high-speed rail. But at what cost?

2

u/rice007 Sep 08 '26

Couple trillion dollars in debt

-3

u/Bulky_Tangelo_7027 Sep 08 '26

The government built that massive HSR network by going trillions of dollars into debt. Most of those lines will never turn a profit. The citizens are left to foot the bill.

6

u/krazyboi Sep 08 '26

But thats common for most trains, theyre not built to be profitable right?

1

u/UsernameNotTakenX Sep 09 '26

But there is a limit. HSR isn't a once of cost but requires constant maintenance and upkeep. A country could spend billions making HSR in the good economic times and then lose more money than what a country can handle from operational costs in the bad times. Maybe the economy was great 10 years ago and 'the future was bright' but when the economy slows, who is going to foot the bill for these losses in keeping the service active?! In China, it's the average joe because all that money deposited in state owned banks effectively belongs to the government.

0

u/Bulky_Tangelo_7027 Sep 08 '26

Yes they are. If done properly, they're supposed to turn a profit within five years.

China... did not exactly do theirs properly.

0

u/Wellsuperduper Sep 08 '26

Your argument is that high speed rail in China is expensive relative to other countries?

1

u/CarlosDanger8420 Sep 08 '26

No, did you read the post? I specifically say that is not what I am arguing. I am saying it is expensive to local people’s salaries.

4

u/Pristine-Code-2532 Sep 08 '26 edited Sep 08 '26

Your speculation is flawed because you're assuming people only use the HSR for long distance journeys, most people aren't often taking a 5 hour train ride, plenty of people use it for cheaper >1 hour journeys

-2

u/SpendPerfect5933 Sep 08 '26

Feasibility studies on the system’s operability were poorly done. To date PRC’s high speed rail system has amassed debts reaching one trillion US dollars.

4

u/Shawei France Sep 08 '26

It's probably better long term to have a 1 trillion debt to build long term infrastructures than spending 1 trillion a year on military.

1

u/SpendPerfect5933 Sep 08 '26

With the current liquidity and economic problems China is facing, the one trillion dollars debt serves as a reminder to PRC policy makers that state funds should be used wisely and in service of the people. The ploy to impress and hoodwink the international community eventually has to end with a thud.

-2

u/Marcionius Sep 08 '26

But it's not like those are the only two choices? A lot of other countries manage infrastructure better than that.

-1

u/Superb_Scientist1033 Sep 08 '26

It is difficult to accept the conclusion that anything in China is unaffordable for local salaries when you see XIANCHENG with multiple BBA dealerships (pre-EV transition at least)

旅游 | Travel China’s High-Speed Rail is Unaffordable Relative to Locals’ Incomes

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