r/DC_Cinematic • u/mymaii1 • 2d ago
DISCUSSION When did DC's downfall start?
When did dc start to fall off justice league was a bit rushed but man of steel and batman v Superman was amazing. They should have added more characters afterwards.
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u/BigJubby2 2d ago
I think it was when BvS came out. The film made a lot of money, but it's negative reputation made people less likely to see the next film. Sure, there are outliers like Aquaman, but the critical reception of DC films like Suicide Squad and the Flash just got worse and worse, so people just lost interest
Things are starting to pick back up now. I've had people who have never seen a DC film talking about Lanterns and Superman to me, and the feedback is positive, so I'm hopeful for the future
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u/Aggravating-Mix2094 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is the right answer but with the wrong explanation. The studio got spooked by the film’s dark tone after some fans already took issue with the darker more grounded approach taken in Man of Steel. And they were afraid to fully commit to the concept, so they edited the theatrical release of BvS into something with an incomprehensible plot, which ironically made the only thing to be able to judge about the movie the tone.
So the whole issue of the darker grounded tone, which was always supposed to start getting lighter in the original plans for justice league anyway, made dc studios freak out and do everything they could to interfere with the production of Justice league even before Snyder had to leave because of his daughter’s suicide. They were glad for the excuse to change the whole thing. And they’ve been on a downward trajectory ever since. And fans clearly don’t trust the new dc studios, as they are not showing up for the films in anywhere near the same numbers as for the DCEU
Like Snyder or hate him, his dc films were epic. And the current dc slate is decidedly not
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u/Relative_Meringue463 2d ago
The fact the whole Snydercut thing happened and it was amazing proved it was WB's fault.
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u/Aggravating-Mix2094 2d ago
And the fact that the ultimate edition of BvS actually makes sense and I can follow the plot. I was so confused the whole time watching it in theaters. I’m was like, how and why are they even fighting lol
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u/Ill_Doctor_7500 2d ago
Can Snyder condense it into a theatrical movie though ?
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u/anthayashi 2d ago
He has cuts of varying length for wb to pick for theatrical release ranging from 2hrs 20mins to 3 hrs. Wb insist on a 2 hrs cut
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u/oreos324 2d ago
The Snyder cut is Snyder's film with the most intervention by the studio. Before he was kicked out, there were lots of reports sayings how Snyder was supervised daily so he wouldn't make another BvS and that supervision lasted for around 70-80% of the whole filming. If the Snyder cut proved something, it was that Snyder worked way better with supervision than alone
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u/therealthing777 2d ago
Snyder’s cut has parts that are infinitely better than what they released, but overall it’s an incredibly tedious slog of a movie that’s way too long and self-indulgent. If they’d have released that in theaters it would have done just as badly…maybe worse, because people don’t want to go see a 4 hour movie
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u/Relative_Meringue463 2d ago
Obviously he wouldn't Release 4 hours in one go, it was just his farewell to the DCEU
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u/anthayashi 2d ago
A 4 hrs cut did not even exist in 2017. His intended director's cut is 214mins which is around 3.5 hrs. For theatrical cut he has cuts of varying length for wb to pick ranging from 2hrs 20mins to 3 hrs. Wb however insist on a 2 hrs cut
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u/SB858 2d ago
wdym downfall bro DC was never up there to begin with
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u/mymaii1 2d ago
Well ppl were debating Abt it being better than marvel before.
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u/Cryptx_Goblin 2d ago
I don’t think it was ever a debate for the cinematic universe. In terms of comics, cartoons, and other forms of entertainment, DC definitely dominated and had stronger recognizable characters. After Spiderman and Iron Man’s major successes, there was a dramatic shift for Marvel. They weren’t the OGs that saved the franchise but DC apart from Nolan’s movies were never up there.
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u/oreos324 2d ago
BvS was not amazing and it's the turning point on when everything DC had built up to that point started to crumble, the brand became the laughing stock and movies like SS and JL only helped keeping DC on the ground. Not many people remember but the majority of the JL marketing was centered around WW because it was the only well received DC product of the time
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u/SuperTuberEddie 2d ago
When the studio started getting involved in BvS.
It would be fascinating to be able to go back in time to offer advice and see how much they would listen. I assume they wouldn’t because what they did kinda proved they though they could make movies better than creatives.
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u/WarInteresting6619 2d ago
Josstice League was the was when it was over for me. Poor casting, bad acting, not even time for each character to shine.
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u/drknow00 2d ago edited 1d ago
Justice League being a clone of Avengers 1 was the beginning of the end. Aquaman 1 was a miracle fluke to hit a billion dollars after Josstice League underperformed. Whedon, Geoff Johns and John Berg all being fired after JL flopped is key to that
After that, Walter Hamada and Ann Sarnoff drove DC into the ground with their scattershot approach of characters who go films.
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u/Lady_Gray_169 2d ago
I think that DC's fall became inevitable when DC pushed Snyder out of Justice League and had Whedon rewrite chunks of it. I don't like Snyder's take on the characters, but I think that WB trying to make such a hard turn was the beginning of a cycle of reactive choices that prevented them from ever finding a footing.
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u/CriticalElephant2150 2d ago
Snyder wasn't pushed out, his daughter died, so they pulled in the guy who was top of the superhero tree after all his MCU success. Pulling in a director who's style is so different to Snyder's wasn't a great idea but he was a known quantity.
The bigger problem and the Snyder cut backs this up, is that DC wanted a sub 2 hour movie but JL only works as a 4 hour movie. Also the suits and Snyder have completely different visions for the franchise. The suits wanted a version of the MCU, Snyder wanted to write 3 JL movies and then blow up the entire franchise.
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u/RockitDanger 2d ago
I remember the week Man of Steel came out, YouTube was shit talking the destruction during the third act. Then that got parroted and is even brought up to this day. DC fans said Returns was too safe but then MoS wasn't safe enough. I personally didn't like WB's interference, releasing the theatrical BvS and allowing Whedon to release his completely different JL movie.
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u/UrbanLegend8901 2d ago
Terrible films, rushed stories to get characters on screen, style over substance. Justice League killed it. It was supposed to be the peak.
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u/jellalbeatslaxus 2d ago
Since the start of Man of Steel. Peak was at Dark Knight Rises.
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u/WorldsWeakestMan 2d ago
You think Dark Knight Rises, the worst film in its own trilogy, is the peak of DC?
Do you know what the word peak means?
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u/jellalbeatslaxus 2d ago
That movie was amazing. The hate is silly and is mostly forced.
Rising from the pit scene is still one of best scenes in the history of cinema.
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u/WorldsWeakestMan 2d ago
I don’t hate the movie, I enjoy it, it’s just not peak because of how the word peak is defined.
I do strongly dislike the casting choice of Hardy as Bane even though I very much enjoy him as an actor.
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u/Relative_Meringue463 2d ago
Nolan Batman wasnt all that good. Cool Batmobile, best Joker, but that's about it.
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u/JordanM85 2d ago
Superman Returns in 2006 was the beginning of it, but it was balanced out by Nolan still making his Batman movies at the same time. Until just recently I've only enjoyed the DC animated movies, which have always been pretty consistently good with a few great ones thrown in.
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u/Hilarity2War 2d ago
I'm gonna say when Joel Schumacher was hired to make the third Batman movie with Val Kilmer. Tim Burton should've come back with Michael Keaton for the last one, so that Batman didn't need "reimagining". Because we ended up getting the other two Batman movies, a Superman reboot/sequel, the whole Dark Knight trilogy that eventually led to what we know as the Snyderverse and the rest of the DCEU, and now James Gunn's DCU.
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u/AseethroughMan 2d ago
When they couldn't decide what to do with a Flash solo movie and couldn't get Batman's solo movie started, that really bogged things down and killed a lot of momentum.
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u/HankScorpio4242 2d ago
Wonder Woman 1984. This came out in 2020 and it bombed. The pandemic obviously had a huge impact, but up to that point, the DCEU was generally performing well at the box office. I was kinda shocked to see that Aquaman grossed over 1 billion. And even Birds of Pray wasn’t a big money loser. WW84 was the first big loser. It just went downhill from there. Not just in terms of box office, but in terms of quality. And there was no focus or cohesion.
Here’s the problem. There have been 45 feature film adaptations of DC comic characters. 21 involve Batman or Superman. A handful more are characters from their “world” like Supergirl, Catwoman, Joker, etc. Of the ones remaining films, a handful did good business, some did extremely well, and a lot of them bombed. So other than Batman and Superman, (and maybe Wonder Woman) none of DC’s characters have any real “brand equity” in the film space.
IMHO the real measure of Gunn’s success with the DCU won’t come until we see the first projects that aren’t tied to Batman or Superman.
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u/anthayashi 2d ago
Even before dceu it is already having issue
Plan for a batman superman movie was already in discussion in the early 2000s but eventually cancelled.
Superman returns is too safe and isnt exactly well received, the sequel is eventually cancelled
TDK trilogy remain the only profitable franchise
JL mortal would be released before avengers and regardless of quality would have the advantage of being the first giving WB an edge but it keeps getting delayed and eventually cancelled
Green lantern is the original planned cinematic universe that would eventually lead to a JL movie. But the movie disappoint.
Man of steel was never meant to be the cinematic universe. It was pitched by goyer to nolan who then pitch it to wb. It was always going to be its standalone franchise similar to TDK thus the similar tone. Snyder is only hired later on to direct
But because green lantern disappoint, wb decided to use man of steel to launch the cinematic universe instead even though it was never meant to be one. The movie is already deep in production so they cant make major changes to the tone and story.
Snyder is indirectly given the task to plan out the universe even though he was only hired to direct a standalone superman franchise.
It is not the worst however. Even with the shakey foundation there is still potential to expand it
Man of steel was supposed to follow up with mos2. But during discussion snyder mentioned batman which wb double down. The original script for bvs is even darker than the released version, chris terrio and snyder had to tone it down (wb want batman to brand lex luthor at the end for example, so wb originally embrace the dark tone)
After release because of reception about the dark tone wb instead reverse course and go for a lighter tone. We know what happened with suicide squad
Justice league also began pre production before bvs release instead of waiting for after bvs to adjust according to the reception. According to people like chris terrio and david ayer, the film release order and dates were already fixed by wb. Chris terrio mention having to write jl without knowing what the aquaman and flash solo movie will be about because jl must come out before those 2 solo films.
We know what happened to the justice league movie.
Despite this the universe isnt dead yet. Aquaman and shazam did well for example. Even if they dont want to follow snyder's plan, as long they release good films there is still potential to continue. However they completely ignore superman and batman. People were asking for a man of steel 2 even if not snyder. Matt vaughn, chris mcq , jj abrams were all attached for a superman film at some point and nothing came of it. The solo flash movie is long overdued. If rick never left and the movie release in 2018 long before all the ezra miller issue, it would be doing well instead of the "flashpoint" movie we receive in the end.
When walter hamada left, michael de luca and pamela abdy plan to continue the dceu longer, even changing the flash ending to include henry cavill for another superman film. But a reboot is eventually the case when dc studio is set up
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u/RoadsidePicnik 2d ago
It was around 2017 when they hired an insecure muppet who made movies at Marvel Studios and coasted on writing one screenplay over and over again.
Because Warner never made a mistake it didn't repeat, they have now found another one of those insecure muppets and put him in charge.
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u/New_Translator3948 2d ago
Downfall is subjective. I enjoyed most of the DCEU and DCU so far but BVS was what turned it into a punchline. The memes, audience/critics, Box Office collapse etc.
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u/oddjobsurameshi 2d ago
I dont think DC was doing well at any point tbh. MoS was a great movie but I think it served better as a stand alone film or even a self contained universe with a sequel. It wasnt a good foundation for a DCEU. So while I think MoS was a good movie, the DCEU failed as soon as it tried to structure around that film as its foundation.
Then films like BvS didnt help. I was so excited only for the movie to be 50% boring, 20% cringe and 30% enjoyable.
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u/anthayashi 2d ago
Because mos wasnt even supposed to be the dceu. That is green lantern. Mos was going to be a standalone franchise similar to tdk trilogy thus the similar tone to tdk. When green lantern disappoint they then change mos to the cinematic universe. By then the movie is already deep into production to have major changes
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u/Shellroot6 2d ago
Honestly DC fans are the most toxic
Nothing makes them
Happy… I love Snyderverse stuff and the new stuff
People just love to complain, my two cents.
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u/Relative_Meringue463 2d ago
Yep. Snyder had a clear 5 movie arc that makes it clear why everything happened and acted certain way
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u/dankpokemon01 2d ago
Man of steel was the turning point
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u/mymaii1 2d ago
Man of steel up until justice league was good
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u/hypehold 2d ago
Suicide Squad? Also BvS was panned by most people and had a historic 2nd weekend drop off
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u/VestigialTail 2d ago
I think it’s super important to remember that a lot of folks here have participated in some revisionist history when it comes to Snyder’s movies. Man of Steel only had a 57% from critics on RT and BvS had a 28%
These weren’t considered masterpieces until after the SnyderCut crew banded together (bolstered by an army of bots: https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/justice-league-the-snyder-cut-bots-fans-1384231/) to get the ZSJL released.
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u/CaterpillarFar763 2d ago
Batman vs superman was not amazing well until the Martha part.. i dont understand why until today superman would say say Martha.. fells like it was a forced or rushed script.
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u/Drgerm66 2d ago
It fell off when it rebooted right after the Nolanverse. People were not ready for new Batman and didn't care for the one Snyder spit out. They should've waited longer to restart and chosen another studio head to run it.
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u/Elxis14 2d ago
For the DCEU, its gotta be when Justice League flopped. It was their answer to the Avengers and it opened less than 100M. BvS being panned was just the beginning