r/DebateAVegan • u/Key-Needleworker-366 • 10d ago
A question about B-12 supplementation
Ive been doing a lot of research on the vegan lifestyle and let me start by saying that I come to you in a spirit of genuine curiosity, I dont come here to challenge your position I think some of the points are quite good and ive really learned a lot.
My concern is the sustainability of vegan B-12 supplementation.
The current method of production is unsustainable and china controls the lions share of it,
So its subject to supplies being disrupted over trade disputes, war,
Etc.
Each country would have to have a secure sustainable supply or one country could literally make the world malnourished should they decide to cut off supply.
Also the current supply is being used by a very small fraction of people worldwide.
Those following a vegan or plant based diet make up less than 1%.
I do of course realize that many people supplement b12 but the vast majority do not.
Lets just say the whole world goes vegan,
Then the demand increases to support every person on the planet.
Could production of b12 keep up or even be possible?
Ive read some articles that a more sustainable b-12 has recently been made in a laboratory,
So maybe that will be the answer.
Edit:
I feel i need to clarify that i did not come here to challenge your beliefs, Im genuinely curious.
I feel like a bit of an idiot that I didnt do more research on b12 before posting this because some of your points seem so obvious.
I actually think all of society should move closer towards veganism, Im not a hater. I see now that nearly every point that you guys make about animal exploitation is correct.
When I started studying veganism I was completely on the other side and never expected to challenge my own beliefs so much but how can I learn these things and not make some changes to my life?
Thank you all for your replies
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 10d ago
Most of the B12 supplementation is going into animal feed to begin with. Also, what is the debate topic here?
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 10d ago
I was wondering what your opinions are on how it can be addressed. If it makes you feel better I suppose I could start a debate. Im not a debate type of person, I like to learn and discuss to reach deeper understanding of a topic.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 10d ago
Starting a debate wouldn’t make me feel better, but it would be the right type of post for this sub. If you’re not interested in debate, r/askvegans or r/vegans might be more appropriate.
Regardless, a couple of things;
You said that b12 methods of production are unsustainable. Do you mind providing evidence for this claim?
If everyone were to become vegan, which assuredly will not happen soon or quickly, then I would imagine we would put in a lot more effort into the process and making it either more efficient or (hopefully) more sustainable.
If theoretically we were unable to get b12 aside from eating animals, I’d argue that veganism would still be the correct moral philosophy. For example, vampires who try as little as possible to eat humans are doing the morally correct thing - if we are biologically obligated to eat animals, we ought to do it as little as possible.
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u/HexicDragon 10d ago
Your final point cuts through so many excuses. If we agree animals don't deserve to suffer at the hands of us, then then of course we should avoid hurting and killing them as much as we can. I'm so frustrated by people who say they care about animals and even like some vegan foods, yet they don't order sofritas at Chipotle or other amazing Vegan foods when it takes literally zero extra effort to save lives.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 10d ago
Thank you for the reply and recommending the other subs, Yeah I just didnt really know where to start, But I guess the sub is called debate a vegan lol Here are some sources on b12 sustainability and impact:
b12 production and sustainability
patents on the microbial process of b12 production
b12 production 2 main countries
These should give you a good start, and you may enjoy reading about the recent research on alternative production methods that have potential to be more sustainable, its pretty interesting.
Appreciate your other points too especially the comparison to vampires lol Twilight fan??
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u/Omnibeneviolent 10d ago
Lets just say the whole world goes vegan, Then the demand increases to support every person on the planet. Could production of b12 keep up or even be possible?
If the whole world goes vegan, it will be after many decades or even centuries of gradual change in that direction. There's no reason to think that as the demand for B12 supplements increases over that time, that production would not also increase proportionally.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 9d ago edited 9d ago
I know, It was very hypothetical for the purpose of discussion. If it helps I didnt write this post as some reason that the world cant go vegan, I think the world should move towards veganism. I just like considering all the roadblocks that could be there, I really just have a fascination with the topic and it has made me reconsider some of my own beliefs.
Edit: my cat stepped on my phone while I was replying and accidentally hit the post button lol Sorry. Dont worry, The cat is a rescue
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u/Omnibeneviolent 9d ago
That makes sense. I think I was just taking issue with the idea that this would even need to be something to be considered in the real-world.
It would be like worrying about what would happen if everyone on the planet suddenly today stopped using fossil fuels and only would use renewable energy. Since we don't have the infrastructure to support such a massive and sudden change, the global economy would almost instantly crumble, leading to mass suffering. But this isn't really something to worry about, since realistically if we ever do get to 100% renewable energy it would be a slow transition over many decades or centuries and both our lifestyles and the infrastructure would have time to adapt.
I appreciate you engaging with this topic and I'm glad it's caused you to think a little more about your beliefs.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 10d ago
How do you know we'd have enough? Im curious where you found the numbers on that, Id like to check it out if you have a source you could share And how do you address the supply chain weaknesses that could potentially arise???
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u/ImTallerInPerson 10d ago
I don’t think you understand the scale of animal agriculture.
We slaughter ~90 billion land animals every single year. That’s almost the same amount of humans to have ever lived in all recorded history. I’ll repeat - in all recorded history, and we slaughter that number annually. Most of the b12 goes to them, we’ll be fine.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 10d ago
I didnt know that, I looked it up and you are quite right. Wow, 90 billion that is appalling. I couldnt find a source for how much of the b12 supplemented to them is vegan though. And some sources say its like 90 percent of b12 goes to feed and some say closer to 50%.
But thats understandable, I would imagine its quite hard to track.
Thank you for your reply, Learned something new
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u/Omnibeneviolent 10d ago
I just looked up a handful of B12 supplements that are intended for farmed animals, and they were all cyanocobalamin, which is the synthetic (vegan) form of B12.
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u/ImTallerInPerson 9d ago edited 9d ago
If we include sea life we’re into the trillions. Farmed fish are supplemented b12 as well but you’re correct the actual number of animals that receive it is washy. The thing is it used to be everywhere. It’s created by certain bacteria and microorganisms that no long live in the majority of our soils, especially in agriculture so the animals need it too.
Cheers though, thanks for your reply as well and for seeming genuinely interested.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 9d ago
Im not worried about running out friend, Just collecting information. Im really learning a lot from all the replies. Sorry if I came off rude.
And I was not aware that if you use a source it will last longer lol
Very snarky but guess I asked for it 🤷♀️
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u/Loopy-Leah 10d ago edited 9d ago
this isn't a scientific study, but most animals are larger than us. so if 99% of b12 is for animals, it very well may be enough for humans. there are billions of cows on this planet
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 9d ago
I didnt even think about that, Seems pretty obvious and I didnt even think of it. Please dont think im an idiot
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u/bbygrl1995 10d ago edited 10d ago
You know most B12 is supplemented to the 40-70 billion animals that are supposed to feed 8 billion humans... Right? If no land animal is being killed for food why cant you just give the b12 to humans?
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 10d ago
Just eat bivalves. Problem solved.
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
Wrong sub
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 10d ago
How?
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
This sub is "debate a vegan." Your suggested solution is not vegan.
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 10d ago
My interpretation of veganism is that vegans avoid being cruel to, or exploitative of, sentient beings.
I don't believe that bivalves are sentient beings.
Therefore, my interpretation of veganism is that vegans can eat bivalves.
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
There's actually a separate name for that: ostroveganism. Bivalves are part of the animal kingdom, so they cannot be vegan by definition. But ostroveganism is absolutely a thing.
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 10d ago edited 10d ago
I consider ostroveganism to be a subtype of veganism, but I agree it's controversial.
My interpretation of veganism is that vegans can eat non-sentient animals.
The point of veganism is to avoid cruelty and exploitation. Non-sentient animals can't be treated cruelly or exploited.
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
If you think it's consistent with the spirit of veganism, that's your prerogative. It still isn't vegan by definition. If you say that eating bivalves is ethically permissible, that's an opinion. If you say it's vegan, that's not an opinion, it's just inaccurate.
If everyone makes up their own personal definition for a word, that word ceases to have any real meaning. It might as well be gibberish.
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u/bbygrl1995 10d ago
Words change meanings and one word can have different meanings. If veganism is about not killing and exploiting sentient beings and bivalves aren't sentient, then it would by his definition be vegan. If you draw your line at animalia/species then that's your ethical stance on veganism, therefore your opinion.
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 10d ago
You don't get to decide the definition of veganism. Neither does the vegan society. Neither of you are authoritative.
I'll use the word how I please. If you think I'm misusing it, that's your opinion, not a fact.
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
The problem is that using the term "veganism" to describe a diet that includes animals will mislead others. When people hear and believe that vegans can eat animals, they think it's no big deal to feed vegans animal products. If you insist on the right to redefine words as you see fit, fine, but know that the overwhelming majority of people agree that eating animals is not vegan. And please at least consider the way that this type of misinformation can affect others.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 9d ago
Just curious, Ive done some research over this topic, so I understand they dont have a nervous system, But how do we know they cant per eive pain in some way? Im not challenging you, Just hear to learn. It seems to be a very controversial topic.
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 9d ago
Bivalves don't have a brain. There's a general, implicit, scientific consensus that bivalves are very unlikely to be sentient.
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u/Purple_Key_6733 vegan 9d ago
When you make up your own words, reality can absolurely be whatever you want. But according to the Vegan Society, it is defined as animals without reference to sentience.
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u/bbygrl1995 10d ago
If nothing else works... Yes.
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 10d ago
I don't think bivalves are problematic in general.
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u/bbygrl1995 10d ago
I don't see the ethical issue with eating them either. I just think a supplement is just as easy and I can get a month's worth for like $10. I worded myself wrong.
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u/TriggeredPumpkin invertebratarian 10d ago
I prefer bivalves for taste, and I also get a lot of nutrients from them besides just B12. I also get omega 3s, zinc, selenium, etc.
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u/bbygrl1995 10d ago
I know there are nutrients in yhem. I'll eat them to if I go out and there's no vegan choice or if my husband brings some. But I also have no issue with a supplement that'll last me a month.
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10d ago edited 10d ago
[deleted]
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
That is factually false. the gut biome of animals is where methylcobalamin is produced. Its found in virtually every animal biproduct.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 10d ago
Which part is factually false?
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
Well before it was deleted, it was the part that animals don't produce B12... that was his claim.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 10d ago
I was under the impression that they don’t.
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
No the ONLY place you can find Methylcobalamin is from animal products. Plants grow basically none and the only version that some do is cyanocobalamin... which is also the predominant version in supplements.
I have the MTHFR mutation and I literally can't go 24 hours without animal B12 because I present with symptoms similar to anemia.
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u/Omnibeneviolent 10d ago
the ONLY place you can find Methylcobalamin is from animal products
This is incorrect. Commercially available methlycobalamin supplements are made via a bacterial fermentation process. I take one a couple of times a week. We do not need to get this from animal products to be healthy.
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
Where do you think that source bacteria comes from?
You guessed it... the microbiome of animal GI tracts :)
Also if it comes from spirulina, the NIH has already done studies showing that it is technically pseudocobalamin... ZERO bio availability. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10552882/
Dont be a science denier 😄
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u/Omnibeneviolent 10d ago
Dont be a science denier
What a weird accusation. There's nothing in my comment that would suggest I'm a science denier of any sort. Even if my claim was incorrect, simply being incorrect is far different than being a science denier.
Where do you think that source bacteria comes from? You guessed it... the microbiome of animal GI tracts
The bacteria used today are entirely from industrial fermentation tanks and are fed sugars. No animals are exploited in the process. They are from self-sustaining cell banks. This same bacteria is found in nature in soil and water, as well as in the guts of animals and their feces.
If you want to argue that the fact that some bacteria used to industrially produce methylcobalamin today may be from a cell-line that may have had a cell that was inside of an animal at one point, and that makes all methylcobalamin not vegan, that's fine, but then you'd pretty much have to say that nothing is vegan, since all agricultural soil relies on trillions of bacteria that have passed through worms and other animals over thousands of years.
Also if it comes from spirulina, the NIH has already done studies showing that it is technically pseudocobalamin
I am not claiming it comes from spirulina. You are correct that using the "b12" from spirulina is not a reliable way to maintain B12 levels.
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u/PossibilityNervous35 9d ago
The tanks are self sustaining but how do you think that bacteria BEGAN??? They got it from Animal gut biome. That bacteria doesn't just poof into existence.
It has to start somewhere like when you make sourdough starter... it can self-sustain for decades, but you have to start it :)
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 10d ago
While I have never heard of this before, in doing just a small amount of research it seems like methylcobalamin can be vegan. Do you mind sharing literature on the subject so I could be better informed?
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u/DonnPT 10d ago
I dug this up for you two: A Technical Guide to the Natural Sources and Microbial Biosynthesis of Methylcobalamin
There's a good deal of detail on industrial production, including several specific bacteria options. (It looks like Propionibacterium freudenreichii might be a favorite, though that could just be at one site.)
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
Yes Spirolina (spelling) makes true methylcobalamin but its in low dosage.
As I stated, there are vegan options that have very low amounts but its a drop in the bucket compared to animal products.
Spirulina contains 35 to 38 µg per 100 g. However, NIH confirms it is pseudovitamin B12... so it has zero bioavailability.
Beef contains 60–80 micrograms of B12 per 100 grams. Full bioavailability.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 10d ago
This is only one part of your claim. Do you mind providing evidence that:
- This mutation results in you being unable to take other forms of vegan methylcobalamin
- That the NIH confirms it is a pseudo vitamin b12
- That it being a pseudo vitamin b12 means zero bioavailability
FWIW, the evidence that you provided very clearly contradicts your original claim that “the ONLY place you can find methylcobalamin is from animal products.”
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
1) Yes https://www.mthfrsupport.com.au/2018/12/importance-of-vitamin-b12-and-mthfr/
2) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10552882/
3) https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4850488/ Search "Pseudocobalamin is therefore considered not “bioavailable” to humans" right above figure 1.
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u/DonnPT 10d ago
This seems to run slightly wide of fact. It's true that commercial livestock operations add B12, but the necessity is overstated. Ruminants - e.g., beef - get B12 from microbial fermentation in the rumen stomach, explaining how they have been able to survive in nature on plant material without supplements. Seafood similarly comes to us without supplements, with I suppose the exception of net pen salmon etc.
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u/greenmysteryman 10d ago
thank you! i deleted my comment because it was too incorrect to edit. as they say: the fastest way to get the right answer on the internet is to post the wrong one.
a more correct statement seems to be: some animals host bacteria that can produce b12 in the digestive tract. so while it’s perhaps technically true that no animal/plant/fungus produces b12 on its own, many still have b12 produced internally and therefore do not require supplementation. (ruminants are an interesting case because they seem to need cobalt, sometimes via supplements, to allow their gut bacteria to produce b12).
some industrially raised animals still do require b12 supplements. it is highly species and environment specific.
so vegans likely are more vulnerable to shocks in the b12 supply chain. b12 is long lived in the body though so it’s not like a brief shock would leave all vegans anemic.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 9d ago
Just jumped in the comments to say I should have made it more clear that I am not trying to use these questions in order to somehow challenge your beliefs. Im genuinely curious.
I feel like a bit of an idiot that I didnt do more research on b12 before posting this because some of these points seem so obvious.
I actually think all of society should move closer towards veganism, Im not a hater. I see now that nearly every point that you guys make about animal exploitation is correct.
When I started studying veganism I was completely on the other side and never expected to challenge my own beliefs so much but how can I learn these things and not make at least some changes to my life?
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
First... you need to see if you have the MTHFR mutation. If you do, then it is biologically IMPOSSIBLE for you to be vegan.
All vegan supplements of B12 is cyano based... MTHFR people can only process Methyl based B12.
Forget the supply economics...
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u/Omnibeneviolent 10d ago
if you have the MTHFR mutation. If you do, then it is biologically IMPOSSIBLE for you to be vegan.
This is incorrect. If for some reason you had a mutation that required you to eat animal products to survive, that would make it impossible for you to eat a completely 100% animal-free diet, but it wouldn't make it "biologically impossible" for you to be vegan.
It just means that for you, veganism would likely look very different in practice to how it looks for most others.
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u/Key-Needleworker-366 9d ago
If someone cant eat an animal free diet how can they be considered vegan? Are you just saying that because they have no choice over their biology that they can still eat certain animal products and call themselves vegan because they have no control of it? Im just trying to learn
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u/Omnibeneviolent 9d ago
I'm glad you asked. Rather than being a "diet" like a lot of people think, veganism is a practice based on the rejection of carnism: the belief/social ideology that humans are inherently justified in unnecessarily harming, killing, exploiting, or treating sentient nonhuman animals as commodities for human use, preference, or convenience.
In practice, veganism involves making a sincere, good-faith effort to avoid unnecessarily participating in direct systems of animal exploitation and cruelty, taking into account individual circumstances, particularly through ordinary consumer choices where realistic alternatives exist within everyday life.
Ultimately, with regards to your question, what this means is that if someone's circumstances are such that they have a medical or accessibility issue preventing them from being able to avoid some form of animal exploitation, they are still vegan as long as they are making that sincere-good faith effort to avoid contributing to the animal exploitation that they reasonably are able, given their circumstances. For example, if someone was eating an egg every day because of some medical need to do so, but they were avoiding all other animal-derived ingredients (and avoiding things like animal circuses, wearing animal fur and leather, etc.), then they would still be vegan.
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
Vegan methylcobalamin supplements are widely available.
And why shouldn't people with the MTHFR mutation take cyanocobalamin? It's never done me any harm, and I have the mutation.
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
Zero bioavailability as proven by the NIH.
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u/Valiant-Orange 10d ago
That twenty-seven year old paper is about pseudovitamin B12 in algal health foods like spirulina, not cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin. The paper does not mention MTHFR mutations.
It is understood that pseudo B12 should not be relied on as a source for B12 for anybody as the study conclusion states.
“Products with high contents of pseudo-cobalamin should not be advertised to consumers as a labeled source of vitamin B12.”
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u/PossibilityNervous35 9d ago
Because if you have the mutation and trying to eat vegan by using these vegan b12 supplements, you will get no bioavailability.
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
There are multiple variations of the mutation. only 2 of the variations restrict the amount of active folate your body has. Sounds like you don't have one of the 2 variations that explicitly does this.
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
Why shouldn't people who have one of those specific MTHFR mutations take cyanocobalamin?
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
Its not that they "shouldn't"... its just that they can't break it down. They can't process it so its basically worthless to them.
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u/doomerunicorn 10d ago
Interesting. TIL. And it turns out I've been taking vegan methylcobalamin, not cyanacobalamin, so I'll definitely look into that. Thanks for the info!
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u/PossibilityNervous35 10d ago
Same reason why I have to look at labels when I buy an energy drink. Only a handful use Methylcobalamin. Big ones like Monster and Redbull use cyano.
The more you know
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