r/DebateAVegan • u/FootExtension2644 • 1d ago
Second hand wool
Hello everyone,
I have been vegan for five years because I came to realise that animals who are exploited unnecessarily are subjected to invasive and abusive treatment, and are killed as soon as they are no longer profitable. I am also opposed to the excessive use of life through artificial breeding, separating offspring from their mothers, and so on. All of this seems deeply unhealthy to me. For these past five years, I have therefore avoided using products derived from animal exploitation as much as possible, with the exception of pharmaceutical and medical products and situations involving insect infestations.
My approach to veganism is not primarily based on personal feelings or sensitivity, but rather on a pragmatic desire to protect animals from an economy that mistreats them. For example, I slept on a leather sofa during the first year of my veganism, and I cooked meat for my parents.
My discomfort with meat actually came later. In fact, I became aware at a very young age that meat came from animals. I grew up in the countryside surrounded by animals, and no one ever lied to me about what was on my plate. What changed when I was 16 was that I discovered that all of this was happening without any necessity. That is why I stopped.
Now, to explain why I am here:
Last winter, I bought a second-hand wool beret on Vinted. Today, I donated it to a charity shop because I have ultimately become uncomfortable with owning it. I would like to know what you think about this situation, as this was not an easy question for me to resolve. I will explain my reasoning below.
➡️ I had considered this second-hand purchase not to be contrary to veganism, given that the reason we should not exploit animals or use them as resources is that doing so supports the production of these products, which causes animals to be mistreated and slaughtered unnecessarily.
I have come across discussions about second-hand wool, silk, leather and fur in vegan contexts, where many people argued that purchasing these items was not vegan because it meant continuing to regard animals as resources, even when doing so would have no impact on production.
However, veganism has the pragmatic goal of putting an end to this production. A particular mindset cannot be imposed on people. Anti-speciesism is a mindset, whereas veganism is a practice.
The reason we do not regard animals as resources is that, in our world, treating them as resources also means subjecting them to mistreatment, because the consideration they receive is conditional on their ability to produce resources. In the case of second-hand goods, however, the purchase does not finance production and therefore does not cause any additional animal suffering.
I have seen videos in which vegans argued that we should not wear second-hand leather because we would not wear dog leather or human leather, for example. Once again, this seems to me to be a matter of personal sensitivity and philosophy. It seems to me that veganism does not require us to believe that animals are equal to one another. In fact, this is not about what we think, but about our actions and their practical impact on animals.
I believe that, in an ideal world, veganism should be enshrined in law. However, we cannot enshrine a mindset or a worldview in law.
Indeed, I would not have bought second-hand leather or fur, but I recognise that this would have been due to my personal disgust, even if doing so had absolutely no impact on animals.
I believe that buying and using second-hand products, regardless of their material, is always the best choice for the world as a whole, whether we consider humans, the environment or the animals who depend on that environment. I am also aware of the STAGGERING amount of resources represented by the enormous quantities of clothing that go unworn. I have often read vegans saying that “veganism is an ethical position, not an environmental one”, but do you not think that animals’ well-being and lives depend entirely on their environment? Is it ethical to allow all these resources to accumulate in the world they inhabit?
I am not trying to lecture anyone about environmental issues, as I am far from perfect in this regard myself.
➡️ That said, as I mentioned at the beginning, I ended up donating the wool beret I had bought to a charity shop. I did this because I came across a pragmatic reason to deeply regret my purchase: I read an argument on this forum suggesting that when a vegan buys a second-hand wool, leather or fur product, they reduce its availability to non-vegans. If non-vegans cannot find what they are looking for on the second-hand market, they might end up buying the item new instead.
Indeed, this seems logical to me. I had effectively made that item unavailable to a non-vegan for several months. I therefore donated it so that a non-vegan could use it.
There was another reason, this time much more closely related to my personal feelings. In a video, a YouTuber drew a parallel between buying second-hand wool and eating meat from someone who no longer wanted it. Indeed, I would be unable to do that.
To conclude, I also regret my purchase because I barely wore the beret in the end, as I felt uncomfortable wearing it. I do not think I can quite put that feeling into words.
An important aspect of this post, alongside acknowledging my mistake, is the distinction between a form of veganism based on the practical consequences of our actions and one based more on ideology, which resonates much less with me.
I would really like to know what you think about all of this. Do you think I can still consider myself vegan after this?
You are free to express your opinions, provided the discussion remains civil. However, I would encourage you not to let your emotions dictate your responses. We can also discuss this privately if you prefer.
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u/ElectroWizardLizard 1d ago
I have often read vegans saying that “veganism is an ethical position, not an environmental one”, but do you not think that animals’ well-being and lives depend entirely on their environment? Is it ethical to allow all these resources to accumulate in the world they inhabit?
I think you might be misinterpreting the meaning of "not environmental". Because yeah, that we should care about the environment, especially since that's going to impact wild animals. But the point is to say one shouldn't use an environmental argument to justify harming animals. Like, people will argue that local animal farms are better for the environment than crops. Even though that argument is wrong, the point is that it doesn't discredit the main point that it's exploiting the animal.
Of course the nice thing is most the time veganism and environmentalism go hand in hand.
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u/Superb_Creme6394 1d ago
As far as I'm concerned second hand things are basically always fine. Unless there is some sort of specific resale market for it that would encourage more buying.
It is better for animals to reuse what has already been produced.
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 1d ago
Carnist here,
There usually is a resale market. I.e. I sell an old leather jacket to buy a newer leather jacket.
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u/Superb_Creme6394 1d ago
Okay but that's not the case for like goodwill. That's why I made the distinction
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u/DesignerFar3215 1d ago
If you have to justify the item's ownership, you like wool or silk or leather more than the idea of veganism. It's as if I said "I am a pacifist, but I really want to hurt and kill people, so here are elaborate, niche situations where I get to do the thing I actually want to do instead of pacifism (booooring)". That's what I hear every time when I hear "vegans" justify blatantly non-vegan things.
Articles of clothing or fashion which rely on the exploitation and commodification of animals are not vegan. Wool, silk, leather, cotton, etc. rely on the exploitation and commodification of animals, so they are just not vegan. You can cover it up by saying it is a gift, or it comes down in a magic box, or it never creates market demand, or it never supports the supply chain, or any sort of ad hoc justification: nothing I have heard has ever convinced me to support those things because they come from structures which are designed to use animals as objects.
Do you feel comfortable wearing second-hand clothes that were made by slaves? If you feel uncomfortable, then you have your answer.
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u/FootExtension2644 8h ago
I’m not vegan for the “idea of veganism” but for the animal cause in practice—for a more just world. Animal welfare is threatened by the profit-driven production of various animal-derived products, not by the use of products that already exist anyway—and have been around for decades—and no longer fund animal exploitation.
My goal isn't ideological but practical, because in case you weren't aware: animals couldn't care less about our ideas or what we think of them; philosophy is just a human pastime.
Oh, and by the way: I’m against the exploitation of both animals and humans, and yet I’ve sometimes bought secondhand products from brands that exploit people—like canvas shoes from Primark, a Uniqlo T-shirt, or an iPhone. I find it unacceptable that companies have products manufactured under conditions of suffering, and if they do so, it is precisely because it is economically profitable for them. By buying secondhand, we eliminate their profits—and that solves the problem, because the whole point of exploitation is profit, not ideals.
I believe that using existing resources is a necessity in a world that accumulates a massive amount of all kinds of products and yet continues to produce even more. These products come from a non-vegan world that condones human exploitation, whether we like it or not, so even though I don’t condone their production, I make do with them.
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u/rocjtothe 1d ago
Veganism aside, why would you buy a beret if any material?
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 1d ago
Carnist here,
I was in the Army when they finally got rid of the God awful beret. No idea whose idea it was to give us some weird Frenchman head gear that takes 2 hands to put on and doesnt protect your face or neck from the sun.
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u/FootExtension2644 1d ago
So what do you think is best? Which army are you from?
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 1d ago
US Army in the early 2000s. I liked the boonie cap best. Patrol cap was alright. The beret was awful though. It wasn't functional. You had to shape it. It didn't protect your face from the sun. I have no idea why anyone would suggest we wear it. Oh and many soldiers didn't care enough to shape it properly so it ended up looking like a chef hat.
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u/FootExtension2644 1d ago
I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your message. Could you please rephrase it?
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u/rocjtothe 1d ago
Im sorry, im just bugging you. A beret is just a funny fashion choice. Just being silly. My real answer is that anything second hand is fine.
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u/FootExtension2644 1d ago
Oh, okay, no problem, don't apologize. I bought it to keep warm, and I kept it even though it made me feel a little uncomfortable because I was planning to move to Poland by train, possibly to areas where it gets very cold.
I get that it might be a fun style, but I'm French 😉
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u/rocjtothe 1d ago
Of all the places. Im French too - Manitoba French. We wear toques instead.
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u/FootExtension2644 1d ago
I think it's great that every culture can preserve its stylistic elements even when adopting a vegan lifestyle; after all, these items can likely still be used for decades without the need for new production.
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u/Accomplished_Toe3579 17h ago
Whats the issue with wool exactly? It does not hurt or kill a sheep to shear it, and quite often it can actually kill the sheep if it is not sheared and is left to overheat. Not shearing can impact mobility and quality of life. Do you have any moral qualms other than it just being an animal product in general, even if no harm came to the animal?
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u/BurbieNL 3h ago
Sheep have been bred that way, in order to keep producing wool for humans. The original natural sheep wouldn't die from their own wool. Shearing is often done without regard for the sheep and can give a lot of stress and also cut the sheep. Tails are often cut off because they can get dirty from feces. After a few years, when the sheep is still healthy and young, it will be send to slaughter because the wool is no longer seen as good quality. Moreover, merino sheep will have the skin around their tail cut off in some counties to prevent fly strike. All of this without any pain relief.
Vegans don't want sheep to be bred for human goods at all, so they don't have to go through all this suffering.
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u/Accomplished_Toe3579 17h ago
Also sorry if my comment was dry or rude at all in tone, i'm really just curious!
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 1d ago
Carnist here,
Ofcourse you can still consider yourself vegan. Veganism has many sects. There are vegans who eat seafood and even vegans who eat meat as long as someone else pays for it.
Now the orthodox vegans who follow don Watson and the vegan society might not accept you but the other factions very well may.
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