r/EU_Economics • u/mr_house7 • 19h ago
Politics & Geopolitics & Defense What can Europe do to protect itself?
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u/Sweaty-Adeptness1541 18h ago
The self aggrandising of the EU never fails to amaze me. Europe did unite after the second war to keep peace, they did it by being part of NATO. With France's and the UK's nuclear deterrent help maintain the Long Peace.
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u/Careful_Manager_4282 17h ago
"Russia's full scale attack..."
The propaganda is strong again. They are either ignorant or delusional if they think that's anywhere near a full scale!
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u/Swagalyst 17h ago
Cope, Svetlana. Deep breaths. Any day now Putin is going to send in the REAL russian army and the REAL T14 Armata and the REAL SU-57, and then everyone who laughed that the russian army will be sorry!
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u/Lollerpwn 15h ago
Lol, it should be pretty obvious that if Russia were to fight the war like it's for survival of their country that they would be able to apply even more force than they do know. This is also why Ukraine is putting up such a fight for them it ís an existential war. But Russia can pull out pretty much whenever they want.
We can condemn Russia for the state terror they inflict on Ukraine. And also recognise that this is not Russia fighting at it's maximum capacity.
If this is Russia fighting at max capacity what is the EU even afraid of. All they have to do is join Ukraine in the fight and Russia will break. Since if they are fighting at max capacity now they will lose ground fast when all the European professional armys join the conflict.
But the EU knows Russia is so much weaker that it's fine letting this play out as a proxy war. Let Ukraine weaken Russia so we don't have to. The EU seemingly just wants a new cold war, where we build up lots of weapons to never use. Ignoring that an arms race hurts everyone involved and solves nothing. But well some people get rich of it.1
u/Swagalyst 15h ago
So how many million soldiers will russia have to lose before it starts fighting for real?
The entire russian army is in Ukraine. There's only skeleton crews watching e.g. Kaliningrad now. The russian economy is suffering badly. The russian army is reliant on supplies from China to at all function. The russian soldiers are traveling on bicycles and chinese motorcycles because the army is critically low on armored vehicles.
You wish to believe otherwise, but this really is russia doing its level best.
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u/InstancePerfect607 10h ago
The authorized strength of the Russian Armed Forces is 2,441,630 personnel. Of this number, 1,550,500 personnel have the status of active military personnel.
The number of troops in the SMO zone: over 700,000 solders.
Less than 50%
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u/Swagalyst 8h ago
russia isn't sending in conscripts (because Putin's approval rests on it being voluntary to die in Ukraine). The rest are soldiers on leave, wounded soldiers, higher officers and their support staff, AA protecting assorted high value targets like Putin's palace in Krasnodar Krai, and some very small garrisons.
The only place with significant military presence is Moscow, after Prigozhin's mutiny nearly took an undefended Moscow there's now in the region of 130 000 troops making sure that no mutineers get to Putin. And a very large chunk of russia's surviving AA is also dedicated to protecting the insane dwarf in his Kremlin bunker.
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u/Lollerpwn 14h ago
How should I know. Russia's leadership doesn't appear completely rational to me. Does Putin with his illusions of grandeur seem rational to you?
You really think it is not possible for Russia to mobilise more people? If Russia is at it's breaking point according to you why doesn't the EU tip the scales. Should be easy enough then right? You are playing a game where Russia is at the same time both weak (they can't scale up their war in Ukraine one bit), yet they are so strong that they are an existential threat to the EU.I don't wish to believe otherwise. I wish Russia was about to break and Ukraine would win a well deserved total victory. That's just not what's happening. If that was happening there is also no point in massive increases in defense spending to defend against Russia. As you tell it they are basically defeated already.
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u/Swagalyst 14h ago
Oh Putin can mobilize a lot more people. Just not equip them. And probably not maintain order if he tries - that it's voluntary to die in Ukraine is the reason the russian public doesn't care about the enormous losses.
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u/Careful_Manager_4282 16h ago
Ah, this makes sense, it's directed to convince minions like you. Try opening a history book to see what a full scale invasion looks like while you are at it.
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u/Several-Ad-6958 18h ago
Quit being warmongers and seek peace.
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u/lorenz93x 17h ago
Damn I thought Russian bot servers were down...
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u/Swagalyst 17h ago edited 17h ago
No, they've rerouted to Chinese, Bulgarian and Indian servers. The US allegedly is also in negotiations to host them.
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u/Maleficent-Taste13 17h ago
Is being pro peace ruskibot behavior now?
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u/Swagalyst 17h ago
When you only attack democracies for existing and pretend that's being "pro-peace": yeah.
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u/Maleficent-Taste13 17h ago
What? Never said Russia is pro peace, ofc they’re not, but that doesn’t mean Europe have to strive for war with Russia.
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u/lorenz93x 16h ago
It's not, but twisting the reality of things it is. Europe never wanted war and still doesn't want it, we are not the aggressor
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u/axxr2 15h ago
Because calling to peace is so Russian propaganda, right?
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u/lorenz93x 14h ago
No, but twisting the reality of things is
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u/axxr2 14h ago
What twisting do you mean in this case?
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u/lorenz93x 13h ago
The original comment called EU warmonger, but the reality of things is that Russia attacked Ukraine while being unprovoked. And is even waging an hybrid warfare against all States of the Union.
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u/Swagalyst 18h ago
Federalize.
The EU must federalize. Until it does, it's a herd of cats which the US and China (and even minor powers like Turkey, Israel and UAE) can easily divide and exploit by threatening and bribing individual EU member states.
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u/Lollerpwn 15h ago
Agreed but the problem is there's still more nationalists than federalists almost everywhere.
People recognise that alone we are not strong. But they are also not ready to stand together because they fear the other might get a better deal with that.3
u/LucaBonk 14h ago
Lol, federalize with whom? Those who built nord streams and still keep closer ties with russia during war? xD Ahahah. More money was paid for gas and oil than sent as help for UA. Don't make me laugh.
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u/Lollerpwn 14h ago
Yes there's a lot of hypocrisy in European politics we can agree on that. But I think together it might be easier to stand strong against a country like Russia.
Of course right now it seems far away anyway. Conservative/ extremist nationalist parties seem to be doing super well. They all want to be sovereign American vassals.2
u/LucaBonk 14h ago
Because there is no eu identity. We have our own cultures, languages and history often bloody. Joined eu because of economic profits not to get under another control, we suffered moscow enough. And without american umbrella there would be no eu anyway. Little do you know.
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u/Lollerpwn 13h ago
The American umbrella is not protecting the EU. Little do you know. Trump would never honor an alliance unless he could gain from that decision personally and financially. The US is looking to destroy and balkanise the EU. All small states that will sell their national interests for security.
If you suffered moscow enough probably you need an alliance like the EU. The EU is pretty flacid since anyone can veto. Which is why further federalisation might help you suffer Moscow less. You will have to suffer Brussels more though. But nothing in life is without a trade-off. Just chilling and getting economic benefits is not the world we live in at the moment sadly.
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u/LucaBonk 12h ago
Eu was made because it had funds and protection from america. Trump is just another president. Each one of them cares about american interests first, or at least should. If it wasn't for america, Poland wouldn't be in NATO or eu. So spare me bs. Eu wants to put their hands on every aspect of our lives and its copy paste from ussr times. Thanks but no thanks. We have enough of eu puppet tusk already. People are being dispossessed of their own property by mafia-style foundations, backed by a ministry and a police force that beats protesters. The case of the zoo in Łączna. Like in times of communism.
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u/Lollerpwn 10h ago
No, that's not why the EU was made. Completely ahistorical what you claim.
Trump is not just another president he has support of a big part of the countrie. And his ideas are not originally his, American exceptionalism has existed before him and will exist after him.You seem very deluded believing in US and Russian propaganda about the EU. Go leave the EU then already see what that gets you.
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u/LucaBonk 10h ago
Marshall plan and oeec. Ahistorical you say, thats funny.
Ah leftie, leftie and your delusions. The only thing that keeps russia at bay is NATO. Not eu. Not france and certainly not germany, the biggest russian lover out there. BND full of scandals, Hanning was not single russian asset. And you say we should give eu beaurocrats the power to handle our safety. Laughable.
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u/Lollerpwn 9h ago
Marshall plan is barely worth mentioning my guy. That had a total of only 13 billion. Even by todays money it would be 130 billion. That is total peanuts it wouldn't even be impressive if it was just for one small country, but it was spread out over multiple countries. That was just a drop in a bucket, also it was paid back. The Marshall plan was very much to the US own advantage. They needed Europe to get back on it's feet fast or they wouldn't have a great market to sell to.
The EU donates more to Ukraine right now every year.NATO is keeping nothing at bay. Trump made it very clear he won't honor the alliance if the US were called upon. In fact he's actively threatening his allies like Denmark to cede him land.
Russia is just not that big a threat. It's economy is dwarfed by the EU. If the EU really wanted a fight with Russia just the difference in industrial capacity alone would make it unwinnable for Russia. Than were not even talking about population where again Russia is majorly outnumbered. The Russian Army also isn't nearly as well trained or equipped with modern technologies like the armies of EU countries are.
The bureaucrats won't keep you safe I never said such a thing your strawmanning.1
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u/Original-Mistake8624 19h ago
Protect whom? Certainly not the people, who are only there to pay.