r/German • u/Rukia242 • 25d ago
Request I really need help with Umlauts please!
I've recently gotten back into studying german because I'm planning to move to Swizterland in the future. I can pronounce a lot of words in German but anything with an Umlaut is just overwhelming for me. Any advice?
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u/BloePeUdB 25d ago
Grüezi! You're in for a lot of pain. 😉 Good luck!
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u/Toeffli 25d ago
Not only an Umlaut but also a diphthong which many Germans struggle with.
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u/Only_Humor4549 25d ago
I think they just don’t know. Bc we often don’t write the diphthong since it’s clear to us. I explained it to a German and he s pretty good in doing it now.
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u/Toeffli 25d ago
Should write it as Grüëzï. But that might confuse OP even more. (ë signifies that it must be pronounced, the ï is just there for good fun)
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u/Only_Humor4549 25d ago
I applied this rule too (bc I know the Dutch do this) but it was confusing to other readers bc they didn’t know what it meant
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u/r_coefficient Native (Österreich). Writer, editor, proofreader, translator 25d ago
They do?
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u/Toeffli 25d ago
Some do. Want extra challenge? Uetliberg, Uetendorf, and Uerikon also have an üë diphthong. On the other hand Oerlikon, Oetwil and Aesch are just regular Ö and Ä.
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u/r_coefficient Native (Österreich). Writer, editor, proofreader, translator 25d ago
As an Austrian, all those are native to me. But I can maybe begin to imagine that for a German German speaker, there might be some hurdles here.
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u/morgennebelimgebirge 24d ago
Their struggle is why you get Müsli in Düütschland but Müesli in der Schwiiz. One of my preferred mistakes.
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u/Willing_File5104 25d ago edited 25d ago
Make a German O or U. Notice how your lips are rounded, while in German E or I, they are widened (hence 'chees' to make you smile for a pic). Now Ü is exactly like German I in any regards, except it is rounded. Pronounce a German I > round your lips as in a U > you get Ü.
And Ö is exactly like E, but rounded.
Finally Ä isn't that difficult for most English speakers. It corresponds to the E in 'bed' in RP or GA.
Background: look up the Vokaltrapez. Ü /y/ and Ö /ø/ came to be by fronting /u/ and /o/. So they stay at the same hight but went forwards towards /i/ and /e/ respectively.
However, German Standard German slightly changes the vowel quality between short and long Ü and Ö, so (short/long) /ʏ/ vs /yː/, /œ/ vs /øː/. But this difference is allophonic, hence doesn't change the meaning + in Swiss Standard German most speakers tend to keep the quality as in the long vowels, /y/ vs /yː/ and /ø/ vs /øː/. This has to do with most Swiss German dialects differentiating at least /ø(ː)/ and /œ(ː)/ phonemically. E.g.:
- brœtle > to barbecue, from bråte ~ to rost
- brøtle > to make or consume a little bread, verbal diminutive to brot ~ bread
- they are not usually written that way in the concerned Swiss German varieties, but both as brötle (same with the dark å, which is usually just written as a) > Standard German writing conventions are not ideal for Swiss German varieties, but people stick to what they know
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u/IFightWhales Native (NRW) 25d ago
They're really just additional vowels with a funny way to write them down.
A vowel is typically one of the hardest thing to properly assimilate in a new language if you're wholly unfamiliar with it.
Auditory training and corrections from a native speaker are the best thing to do here. You need to train not only your tongue but also your ear.
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u/muehsam Native (Schwäbisch+Hochdeutsch) 25d ago
but anything with an Umlaut is just overwhelming for me.
Even Ä?
TBH it sounds more like you haven't properly learned the ~20 different German vowels, but you feel more comfortable with letters that look more familiar, without any extra dots.
Are you saying that out of the eight basic long tense monophthongs, you have five of them figured out, and the three that are tricky just happen to be the ones that are spelled with little dots?
And out of the seven short lax monophthongs, you have got four and a half figured out, but you struggle with two and a half? How does that even work? How do you struggle with short Ä but not short E when it's literally the same sound?
There's no shame in admitting that you have trouble with vowels. The German vowel system is complex. Distinguishing between 20 different vowel sounds is tricky, especially for somebody coming from a language with just five or so vowel sounds (Japanese, Spanish, etc.). But if that's the case, you have to study the whole vowel system, not just the ones that are spelt with little dots.
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u/malenkylizards 25d ago
What are these 20 different German vowels?? I thought there were 8 or 9, idk if upsilon is included?
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u/muehsam Native (Schwäbisch+Hochdeutsch) 25d ago
Eight long tense monophthongs: A [aː], E [eː], I [iː], O [oː], U [uː], Ä [ɛː], Ö [øː], Ü [yː]
Seven lax short monophthongs: A [a], E/Ä [ɛ], I [ɪ], O [ɔ], U [ʊ], Ö [œ], Ü [ʏ]
Three diphthongs: EI/AI [aɪ], AU [aʊ], EU/ÄU [ɔʏ]
Two schwa-like sounds: E [ə], R [ɐ]
Those are twenty in total. You could argue that there are a few more, such as short tense vowels, but those only show up in loanwords, and many speakers change them to long tense or short lax vowels in casual speech.
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u/gitterrost4 Native <Sachsen Anhalt/Saxony Anhalt> 24d ago edited 24d ago
Would these be the correct examples in the order you gave them? (I am native, just not sure if I am reading the IPA correctly)
- Haar
- kehren
- Bier
- bohren
- Schule
- Fähre
- Schön
- Tür
- Ball
- Keller
- Film
- toll
- Bulle
- völlig
- gefüllt
- Ei
- Haus
- Euter
- Schule
- Schüler
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u/muehsam Native (Schwäbisch+Hochdeutsch) 24d ago
Yes. The last one could be Schüler, Euter, Uhr, etc. Most (but not all) native speakers pronounce that R as a vowel. I could have included all of the long vowels + R in the diphthongs since that's what essentially happens in nouns like "Uhr", but IMHO that's too regular to treat it as distinct unique vowels.
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u/gitterrost4 Native <Sachsen Anhalt/Saxony Anhalt> 24d ago
Ah! I didn't know that one. I edited my post to include an example for the last one. Maybe it helps someone.
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u/Longjumping_Sort_227 25d ago
There are more different vowel sounds than letters to write them down. There are long and short versions of vowels that may actually sound different from each other.
I am not sure about the exact total number, and I think most Germans do not realize there are differences. For example, I only realized that the o in "Ofen" does not have the same quality as in "offen" when I started to learn another language that maps sounds differently to letters.
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u/Old_Heat_1261 25d ago
One important point is that, although the written form suggests that they are like o and u, in fact they are more like e and i.
If you start pronouncing them that way and you won't confuse the Germans because there are dialects where the same replacements are made.
And remember that there are two varieties of each, a long and a short one.
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u/Old_Experience_4308 25d ago edited 25d ago
My international friends learning (Swiss) German, I usually just let listen to my speech and then have them copy me. They usually get the ä, ö, ü quite fast. So, I would suggest that you search some audiofile and do exactly that. Just play around with your voice and try to find out which parts of your body produce the sound you are making, make changes until you‘re happy with the result.
If your long term goal is to speak Swiss German, then best would probably be some language-tandem with a Swissgerman person so you can practice Standard German with a Swiss accent which later on will make it easier to transition completely into dialect.
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u/coolshoes_ 25d ago
Vor auem, wes sech um Schizerdütsch handlet, chönntis mängisch ganz schön turbulent wärde, wenn ig ehrlich bi
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u/VoloxReddit Native (De & En) 25d ago
Basically the trick with the umlauts is to make an 'E' sound but form your mouth as if you were to pronounce the Umlaut's vowel (a, o or u).
Ä is sometimes featured in a diphthong like äu (which makes a sound kinda like "oy" in oysters). In this, it's functionally the same sound as the "eu" diphthong.
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u/fishoa 25d ago
If you know French, ö is the oe sound (oeuf), ä is the ait sound (fait), and ü is a deep u, like in but when the announcers call a goal. I mean, if you’re going to Switzerland, might as well shape up on the French too.
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u/Aron-Jonasson Threshold (B1) - Switzerland/French 25d ago
Actually it's not the sound found in "oeuf", it's the sound found in "eux" (or "oeufs"), "oeuf" has an /œ/ sound and "eux"/"oeufs" has an /ø/ sound, which is the German ö. Swiss French retains the distinction between these two vowels, although many French accents merge those two vowels (and the schwa) into /ø/
And the ü sound /y/ is the French u (e.g. but), while German u is French ou (e.g. bout)
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u/cmyk_rgba 25d ago
came at these from finnish where ä and ö are everywhere, and the only thing that worked for me was minimal pairs. schon vs schön, musste vs müsste, back to back out loud until my mouth noticed the difference. on their own they never stuck. also swiss german is gonna reshuffle all your vowels anyway so dont stress it too hard lol
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u/shrinkflator 25d ago
It just takes practice, but they are related sounds. An umlaut vowel is a more "closed" version of the regular vowel. You mouth is a little more closed and the root of your tongue is a little higher or further forward. Ä/E are pretty much the same. The long vowel versions of Ö/Ü just means that you round your lips.
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u/Only_Humor4549 25d ago
I thought English speakers. They don’t struggle with the ä. It kinda sounds like the “eh” or the ea in bear (ONLY IN A SPECIFIC ENGLISH DIALECT.)
From what I ve seen they struggle the most with ü/u and o/ö
They often say wurde insead of würde. Or könnte instead of konnte. So I always have to ask which tense/aspect they mean or if it’s just a pronounciation issue. If I tell them what it’s supposed to sound like ir if I just say “Achtung” while they read aloud they often catch it and correct it.
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u/DeusoftheWired Native (DE) 25d ago
You can look up any German word on https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Hauptseite and have it read out aloud by clicking on the speaker icon. Or learn IPA and simply read how something is pronounced.
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 25d ago
Yes. Ä for many speakers is the same TWO sounds as E, and this is what foreigners should use, so what you say is some kind of mental block and not reality. The two sound seach of Ö and Ü on the other hand may require some training, though some English speakers actually have a sound close to Ü in their own speech, and the problem is not saying Ü but rather saying U properly. Moreover, if you are at this stage, I doubt you can say MANY other German sounds, e.g. long O and likely short O too. And so it looks to me like you don't have a realistic estimate of your own pronunnciation.
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u/Swiss_bear 25d ago
An ä and an a are in a sense different letters. I was taught as a native English speaker when attempting to pronounce a letter with an umlaut to say the letter with normal German pronunciation but think eh (the umlaut). Try just one practice word: "Kase" (not a real word as far as I know) and Käse (cheese). I moved to Switzerland almost 10 years ago and love living here. Good luck!
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u/FargoJack 25d ago
Umlaut letters preserve the same lip rounding but it is half nasalized(half the exhaled air goes out nose).
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u/Deutschanfanger 25d ago
Normal vowels are spoken generally from the back of the mouth, those with umlaut are moved to the front.
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u/pippin_go_round 25d ago
Do not regard them as a variation of the "corresponding" vowel. They are their own letter and sound.
ä is not a variation of a. It is its very own thing, with a distinct pronunciation. Yes, it's close to a in some cases and is grammatically related. But it is its own letter. Do not regard it as "strange a". That is not going to work. It is just an additional letter in the alphabet. Own that mindset.