The saying "I'd rather ask for forgiveness than permission" is be deeply toxic in interpersonal relationships, and we need to stigmatize it.

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692]

This is universal, in my opinion, or it should be. It is a very dangerous, self-absorbed, and egocentric mindset, regardless of your political alignment, ideals, beliefs, lifestyle, or sexuality. If anyone who is your lover, life partner, spouse, or significant other believes "I'd rather ask for forgiveness than permission," you need to take that as a huge red flag. It inherently prioritizes one partner's desires over the other's consent and boundaries.

When applied to a romantic relationship, having that mindset shows they are okay with disregarding and disrespecting their significant other, as long as they believe they can get off scot-free. It also arrogantly assumes that forgiveness will even be on the table when all is said and done. It very well may not be. And even if it is, the trust is absolutely going to be broken, which only pours more gasoline on the bridge which is going to be easier to burn when and if the other party decides they're ready to light a match.

Anyone I'm dating who believes, "Meh, it'll all work out, they'll forgive me or get over it",that's not someone I want to be with. If I say "no" to something and you do it anyway, you are not someone I want or need in my life.

[u/DopeyCalliope]

This should not apply to personal relationships. More like when you're doing something to your own property that the city wants approval for or other things with too much stupid red tape for your own damn things

[u/Dav_1542]

The whole forgiveness before permission thing is for doing stuff under an overbearing presence like your parents or boss. Applying it to a more equal dynamic like a relationship is just being a bad partner

[u/MaddogFinland]

It applies well at work when dealing with stupid company rules. I would never use it at home with my wife for any kind of deep relationship matter. This is an approach best left for things like spending 100 dollars on something superfluous or maybe bending a company rule…not cheating on your partner

[u/stevefromcorporate_]

This saying is more relevant to strict parents who don’t give their teenagers permission to do anything fun in life lol. Speaking from experience…I snuck out to see my first concert using that logic and I’m very happy I did

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/stevefromcorporate_]

I'm happy for you 😉 I rebelled too and I was happy I did so. Like telling my boss, fuck you, I'm going to have fun with my friends. And I loved it. I remember reading that being an overly strict parent is what makes children more rebellious. Would you, from your experience say this is valid?

Also I meant specifically for romantic relationships but I'm more than willing to chat about other dynamics! 😆

[u/DarkMagickan]

It really depends on the action, now doesn't it? If it's something simple like taking the last cookie, that's no big deal. If it's something like spending 800 bucks on a new phone without consulting the other person, that's not okay.

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[u/ICanViking]

I was thinking about this quote just this morning during coffee. Was reminiscing about some decisions I made at a job one time.

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/ICanViking]

Care to share?

[u/OverallSpecific5792]

This is my favorite thing to do, I usually do it sparsely in personal relationships but I always keep it handy for work stuff.

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/OverallSpecific5792]

"Relationships" meaning you've had many that failed. So I rest my case, you can't be selfish in a romantic relationship.

[u/OverallSpecific5792 → u/Kindly_Pangolin_692]

Oh for sure, but I think there’s a place for it as long as it’s not malicious. I have had a ton of failed relationships but finally got things right about 7 years ago and things are pretty egalitarian in the house.

[u/Peermeneer_exe]

I honestly thought this wasn't a hot take? I always saw this as a ''I know I'm doing something bad, but...'' type situation

[u/gleaming-the-cubicle]

I'm gonna be real, I've only ever heard that about work environments

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/gleaming-the-cubicle]

Maybe it does my friend, but I was referring to it being used in romantic relationships.

[u/gleaming-the-cubicle → u/Kindly_Pangolin_692]

I understand that is what you said, I'm just having a challenging time believing that you have heard this about romantic relationships

If so, you are witnessing terrible relationships

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/gleaming-the-cubicle]

I actually heard about it on the radio. The radio station host was saying it's a statement his wife lives by when he was giving listeners relationship advice. The Steve Harvey Morning show to be exact.

[u/gleaming-the-cubicle → u/Kindly_Pangolin_692]

"But a hack comedian said it on the radio!"

Honestly even more sad than when I assumed you had a friend who was justifying their own cheating

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/gleaming-the-cubicle]

Ok explain why you're being a dick about it when it's clear from my post that I'm disagreeing with him??? Make that, make sense.

[u/gleaming-the-cubicle → u/Kindly_Pangolin_692]

Your take is not hot for several reasons and that is what my issue is

[u/Desperate_Leg_40]

I only have use this in reference to work or some other organisation where beaurocracy plays an unnecessary obstacle. I dont often hear people use this to talk about personal relationships?

[u/CGVSpender]

You are setting up a zero sum game. If you believe you have a right to say no to your partner, which they must abide, you are also disregarding and disrespecting them.

Saying 'better to ask forgiveness' does not, in fact, assume forgiveness is a given. It can be seen as taking some control over your own life and recognizing that some things are non-negotiable and your partner needs to deal with that or not as they see fit.

I would argue way more people believe being in a romantic relationship gives or should give you control over your partner in ways that respect your needs but not theirs.

[u/PanicIsOkaySometimes → u/CGVSpender]

Similarly to civil disobedience you need to be willing to accept the consequences of your choices. They may choose to not forgive you and you'll get in trouble.

[u/CGVSpender → u/PanicIsOkaySometimes]

Yeah, if you're worried about 'getting in trouble' with your romantic partner, there is a high chance you are in a somewhat one-sided, controlling situation.

The hardest problems are Goldilocks problems where you need to find the right middle ground. If you must always get your way, you may not be sufficiently taking your partner's needs into consideration. But if you're running around in fear of 'getting in trouble', your partner is likely the controlling one.

[u/Peermeneer_exe → u/CGVSpender]

In a normal healthy realtionship you can still get in trouble for doing stuff without their premission🙄

What if a partner without consulatation buys a big effort pet, makes a giant and risky financial investment, or sleeps with someone else?

All of those could, and likely will, get you in trouble in a fully healthy relationship. It wouldn't make them controlling.

[u/CGVSpender → u/Peermeneer_exe]

I want a dog. Dogs require effort and expense. My partner does not want a dog. I am willing to do all the work to keep the dog healthy and happy. I make enough money to take care of the dog.

Your idea of a 'healthy' relationship is one where I can 'get in trouble' for buying a dog I can afford and am willing to take care of.

This is a zero sum game, and not healthy.

Even worrying about 'cheating' can be controlling and unhealthy. As long as we are playing in hypotheticals, imagine the situation where one partner has unilaterally ended the sexual relationship but still believes they should be able to prevent their partner from seeking satisfaction elsewhere. Is this actually healthy? I don't think so.

[u/Peermeneer_exe → u/CGVSpender]

yeah ok you're just insane </3

[u/CGVSpender → u/Peermeneer_exe]

That was fast. I guess we found your limits.

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/CGVSpender]

Ok my friend, Let’s strip away the semantics. There is a massive difference between coercive control and mutual consent. To be frank, it sounds like you may have never been in a healthy relationship, because just reading your words, your mindset comes across as very selfish and inconsiderate, two things that simply aren't compatible with a successful, long-term relationship. It can't always be about you. And yes, sometimes when your partner says 'no' to something, you need to be okay with it.

When you choose to enter a committed partnership, you are choosing an interdependent life. Your dog example perfectly highlights your blind spot. As a dog lover and an experienced pet parent, I can tell you that your argument assumes bringing a living creature into a shared living space only affects the person paying for it.

It doesn't, at all. It's not realistic at all for your partner to be absolutely unaffected by the dog, a dog barks, sheds, takes up physical space, changes the dynamic of the home, and restricts spontaneous travel for both partners. By bringing a dog home unilaterally, you are forcing your partner to live with a major lifestyle change against their will. That isn't autonomy; it's entitlement and a total lack of empathy. And what are they supposed to do if say you're at work, they're off work and they're at home with the dog, just ignore it, or keep it locked up until you get home? Then that's neglect and abuse.

Furthermore, framing 'getting in trouble' as a sign of an abusive, controlling relationship is a manipulation of the point. Others have mentioned this phrase applying to employment or strict parents, and all three circumstances of this mindset have potential consequences.

With a job, it may no longer be your job if you decide you'd rather 'ask for forgiveness' than permission. With parents, it might mean a spanking or harsher restrictions. And with a partner? Hey, they may simply decide to break up with you.

In an adult partnership, 'getting in trouble' just means facing the severe, natural consequences of breaking trust. If your definition of a relationship is one where you must have total freedom to do whatever you want, regardless of how it impacts the person you live with, you don't actually want a partner. You want a roommate who tolerates you. Saying 'no' to a boundary violation isn't a zero-sum game. It’s the bare minimum required to maintain respect.

[u/CGVSpender → u/Kindly_Pangolin_692]

You are not giving what I said an honest reading.

Go back and look at what I said in the comment about Goldilocks problems.

[u/Kindly_Pangolin_692 → u/CGVSpender]

Oh no pal, I gave your words an honest reading; you just don't like where your own logic leads when applied to real life. You don't get to hide behind the abstract concept of a 'Goldilocks middle ground' when your concrete examples of that 'middle ground' involve unilaterally forcing a dog into a non-consenting partner's home or stepping outside a monogamy agreement.

Those aren't 'Goldilocks problems' where you just need to fine-tune the balance. Those are binary situations. A dog is either in the house or it isn't. A boundary is either respected or it is violated. Framing a deliberate breach of trust as just 'taking control of your own life' is a refusal to accept that your actions have consequences.

You claimed a healthy relationship shouldn't involve 'getting in trouble.' But as others have pointed out, treating a partner like an overbearing boss or parent to be bypassed, rather than an equal teammate to be respected that's just you being a bad partner. Period. If a partner says 'no' to a major lifestyle change, or anything else and you do it anyway, you aren't finding a middle ground. You are choosing your own desires over the partnership. And your partner has every right to choose themselves and walk away.

[u/CGVSpender → u/Kindly_Pangolin_692]

The partner can walk away for whatever reason they want, including meeting someone new or getting bored. So that's a non-starter.

Having veto rights over all lifestyle changes is being the boss, and sets up a zero sum game. Even in my cheating example, you are not willing to even consider whether unilaterally ending the sexual dimension of the relationship might itself not be cheating, nor are you concerned with the consent of the unwillingly sexless partner to this change.

Nor are you even considering the legal issues of leverage when it comes to 'just walking away' quite often being easier for one party than the other in a legally contracted relationship. It is fucking naive to believe that this assymetrical leverage doesn't come into play on whose vetoes carry more weight.

I was responding to someone else's 'concrete examples'. Let me give a real world example of my own.

A husband has some health issues. After much research, he finds some exercise equipment he feels is the right path to addressing them. His wife vetoes, or tries to negotiate (you can have your exercise equipment if I can have a new couch of similar expense), raising the cost of moving forward.

She is not considering his needs at all. They are not even symmetrical on the need hierarchy, as he wants something to promote his (or their) health and she wants something to sit on her ass.

There is no authority without responsibility, but she is taking authority over his health plan without taking any responsibility for the result. If he 'obeys' her, he now has every right to resent her for being a roadblock to getting his needs met.

[u/Over-Tolerance]

Yeah, let's go ahead and stigmatize even more common human behavior so that nobody feels comfortable to just exist without upsetting some culture police that think we can somehow change how many human beings are wired.

WE in your statement is what? A mouse in your pocket? Or, are you part of this hateful and divisive cancel culture that have zero humanity experience or real knowledge and just want everyone to bend over to some perceived 'better' way of thinking, feeling, and making opinions.

Decisions and opinions are freedoms you sick manipulator. Get a life and stop trying to be a Nazi.

[u/Peermeneer_exe → u/Over-Tolerance]

this is so insane😭

I was writing out a whole thing critizing you, but I honestly can't, it's so out of touch I'm almost convinced it's ironic haha