r/ImaginaryWesteros • u/snoopmask10 • Aug 01 '26

Book “Two scared children spouting oaths they didn’t understand.” by @pookiebearsnook

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1.3k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

61 comments sorted by

267

u/Nothing_Special_23 Aug 01 '26

Poor poor Jaehaera.😢

151

u/starvinartist Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken Aug 01 '26

Unwin Peake was a monster.

119

u/Allnamestakkennn Aug 01 '26

His name was Unwin, he was doomed to be a loser.

21

u/starvinartist Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken Aug 02 '26

Notice the people he victimized were children who were smaller than him. And the man ordered people to disfigure young women so Aegon would choose his daughter as his bride. He is such a loser.

13

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '26

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27

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

Yeah. Like she deserved better and I have never suffered or accepted the rationalizations on why it "had" to happen in the meta, an they make it worse than it just happening. I don't have any objection to Dae per se and actually think it would make the most sense if all the modern Targs had blood from all three factions - Black, Green, and Blue - through a later marriage of a descendant of Aegon and Jae and a descendant of Aegon and Dae. And I'm not opposed to Jae dying tragically early given the trauma and people like Unwin, but I figure that would be made better by giving some time for she and Aegon to heal, have some kids, and maybe have the start of a family or the like when it hits.

21

u/swaktoonkenney Aug 01 '26

It’s because GRRM didn’t want Daemon blackfyre to be a green descendant. He wanted the blackfyre rebellions to be their own thing

17

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

And I think that makes sense, but I figure the answer there is like with the Tudors, to make them all a fusion of the three bloodlines, so both Red Dragon and Black Dragon have the blood of Blacks, Greens, and Blues in their veins.

2

u/Broad_Project_87 Aug 09 '26

which is kinda wierd as he decided to deviate from history there (as the blackfyre's inspiration, the Jacobites did have a that same sort of arguably legitimate claim in history)

1

u/swaktoonkenney Aug 09 '26

Daemon has a claim, Daeron is a bastard and as the oldest male heir he should be the king.

I don’t believe it but a lot of the realm did

2

u/Live-Section-4028 Aug 02 '26

I might be a little lost, which faction is the blues?

7

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 02 '26

The Naval-focused lobby around House Velaryon, sort of halfway between being a Sub-Faction of the Blacks and their own thing. Not very happy with Rhae Rhae.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '26

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13

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

She was traumatized and probably neurodivergent on the autistic spectrum. Her arrested development almost certainly stemmed from that, not some kind of room level IQ or fundamental impairment. Aegon III was also that flavor of "mentally challenged". Why do you want to deny those people the ability to heal, live life, or have children?

-9

u/hyudbdjfb Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken Aug 01 '26

Oh please jaehera was said to be slow. Aegon III was just insanely depressed and lonely, nowhere near mentally challenged.

12

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

Firstly: "Slow" how? Did you read the text? She was not a literal imbecile. Her diagnoses were classic trauma reactions and arrested development. I would know, my mother was a clinical nurse in the maternity ward and I worked as volunteer.

Moreover, "slow" is the exact same term used to describe several other lords.

Secondly: Depression is a mental challenge.

Thirdly: Having utterly destroyed your claims and proven that to the contrary, let's ignore that evidence and go with your pretense. So what? Why would you demand that those you describe as "mentally challenged" not live and be able to have children?

There's a disgusting tinge of murderous eugenics in that sort of stuff, and it practically speaks as if Unwin Peake or the Vels that actually murdered her somehow did the realm and even her a service. That kind of logic leads to places like Hadamar.

In any case, Jaehara was a girl who showed massive trauma and arrested development but did not show signs of crippling displacement, who engaged with Aegon III on a more or less even playing field, and who showed similar levels of cognition or lack thereof to Aegon in things like the marriage. This was not some kind of mental vegetable. This was a woman who already was on some kind of spectrum having her early life ripped to pieces and being unable to continue normal childhood education. But I fail to see how that makes her the likes of Mr. Dancing Nude and Unable to Hold a Conversation into Adulthood.

-5

u/hyudbdjfb Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken Aug 01 '26

Im not reading all that. She was considered slow, argue with your mom. And I repeat the question, why do you want her to suffer pregnancies, as Aegon III’s wife, she was just a political hostage for the blacks. True mercy for her would have been sending her off to the silent sisters.

9

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

Im not reading all that.

Then I thank you for yielding the point and conceding defeat.

So much for the "unbowed, unbent, unbroken" tag. Beaten by a handful of words.

She was considered slow,

And she also showed a host of other conditions that show she was not inherently so, not a mental cripple, and could recover well with proper post-war circumstances. And Aegon III and others treated her with great respect and not like a mental vegetable during her time alive.

argue with your mom.

I have no reason to argue with my mother about this, her experience and training and reading of the source material agrees with mine. I also have no reason to argue against my own far more limited experience and training.

And her reactions upon reading your own text was firstly to complain about me arguing with fools online, and then when she assessed it to say unkind words I cannot repeat about Hitler's eugenicists and you. I think she went too far and I'm one for comparisons, but I cannot argue: there is no honor or wisdom or compassion in delegitimizing the lives of those facing trouble growing (especially as relatively minor as Jaehara did) and acting as if their deaths would be compassion.

And I repeat the question, why do you want her to suffer pregnancies,

Cute. Why do you want her to suffer being thrown out of a window by Unwin Peake or by the Vels?

In any case, I would wish her to have the choice of having pregnancies as she grew up and matured to give consent, as she was already showing signs of recovering. Childbirth is not easy, especially given the circumstances, but neither she nor Aegon III were evil or stupid. It also would fit.

as Aegon III’s wife, she was just a political hostage for the blacks.

And? Lots of people are political hostages in their marriages during this. That does not mean they are incapable of loving their spouses. Edmure Tully's wedding was a desperate and cowardly attempt by Robb Stark to atone for his own oathbreaking, and it turned into the greatest blasphemy in recorded Westerosi history by mass guest murder. His in-laws are for the most part literal monsters who slew or imprisoned those he cared about, and he is literally a political prisoner to them.

But he and Roslin still have come to LOVE one another, and are happy Roslin is pregnant. Indeed Roslin HOPES the baby is a girl because if it is a boy she suspects that her monstrous relatives will murder Edmure.

And while I am Team Green I am not blind, and I do not believe the surviving members of Team Black an the few Team Green members left would be as monstrous as the Late Lord Walder Frey.

Do you think true mercy would be sending Edmure to take the Black against his will or that of Roslin?

True mercy for her would have been sending her off to the silent sisters.

Uh-huh. Nevertheless that Silent Sisters are not idle setpieces but have rigorous lives of prayer, preparation, civic work, and help that would be debilitating to even a girl that is merely arrested in development as I hold Jae is, let alone as fundamentally or irretrievably "slow" as you hod that is. Truly not beating the allegations.

-6

u/hyudbdjfb Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken Aug 01 '26

You need to calm down. Arguing like your life depends on it. I stand by what I said. If you don’t like her characterization be mad at GRR Martin lol.

8

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

You need to calm down.

You need to read the source material better and understand actual mental and stress conditions. Evidently the mods agree given what happened to your original comment which reads distinctly like justifying murder for

Arguing like your life depends on it.

Because in a way it does. I am Autism spectrum and early in life I displayed many of the same traits as she did as "slow", though in different ways and my intelligence was always more evident, but I had the social skills of a brick and displayed many of the similar issues.

I am also a student of history, medical and legal. I did not mention Hadamar casually, nor was it my choice to invoke that readily, but Mom's comments made me think and concluded it was the lesser evil.

I stand by what I said. If you don’t like her characterization be mad at GRR Martin lol.

Her characterization is fine, and fitting. It just disagrees with what you said.

And I am mad at Martin for plenty of things, such as the dumb choice to do things like the Jae murder, inadequate characterization of Dae, his Daemon worship, his military and logistics illiteracy, and his slack in writing. But this is not the problem with him. This is the problem with your argument.

You stand by what you said? Fine by me. Just means your argument falls by what you said in the face of better evidence and argumentation.

36

u/newme02 Aug 01 '26

the one thing i hope condal retcons. although i doubt we go that far

128

u/PluralCohomology Aug 01 '26 edited Aug 01 '26

It is an interesting choice that they are for the most part wearing "neutral" red and gold colours, with only a hint of their parents' factions, the green in Jaehaera's crown and necklace, and Aegon's black cloak and the straps connecting his buttons (I don't know the exact word). Though that could also be his groom's cloak for House Targaryen, even though Jaehaera already belongs to the same house.

32

u/richbitch9996 Aug 01 '26

Yes, very beautiful and detailed work.

40

u/Silly-Tomatoo Aug 01 '26

Such a tragic life they had

60

u/Illustrious-Video353 Aug 01 '26

This week on isekai-crossover-fanfiction-dot-com;

“I became a Therapist only Yesterday and now I have to Console Two Inbred Kids for Marriage Counseling?”

Seriously though nearly everyone they love is dead to a war that no longer matters and these two children basically strangers to one another.

16

u/lupatine Aug 01 '26 edited Aug 01 '26

Wasn't she the only person he spoke too in the books ?

They basically were bethrothed after the Dance and Aegon barely spoke.

7

u/Illustrious-Video353 Aug 02 '26

That man desperately needed 5HTP and a handful of edibles.

40

u/Tenoi-chan Aug 01 '26

Poor kiddos

58

u/sixth_order Aug 01 '26

The saddest part of this, to me, is Jaehaera. I'm not minimizing what Aegon III went through as well, but after Jaehaera's death there's no one around with green ties who cares enough to find out if it was foul play. Or do what Daeron did for Maelor.

If she was murdered, it went totally unanswered and unavenged.

43

u/Chocolatetot496 We Light the Way Aug 01 '26 edited Aug 01 '26

That’s what gets me too, because at least Aegon still had some family around to care about him. Jaehaera was in a court who had no reason to even pretend to care about her after she died. Her death went largely unmourned with the exception of the small folk and Aegon, and even then it was only for a little while. After all, why should anyone care about a little daughter of a disgraced king who partook in a war that razed the realm to the ground?

14

u/alphajugs Aug 01 '26

My heart 😭

10

u/Krioniki Aug 01 '26

Fuck Unwin Peake

60

u/comrade_batman Fire and Blood Aug 01 '26

I’ve always thought that a way for Jaehaera to have survived was if Martin had made Naerys the eldest daughter of her and Aegon, not Viserys. Some fans speculate that the reason she was killed off was so that the Blackfyre Rebellion didn’t seem like a legacy of the Dance’s Black and Green factions: Aegon III’s descendants, such as Daemon, having Green descent and Viserys II’s (Daeron II onwards) only being of Black descent.

If Naerys was Aegon III’s eldest daughter then, one, it would make sense she was the one betrothed to Aegon IV and two, both sides having the mixed Green and Black ancestry, and therefore no need to have killed off little Jaehaera.

74

u/Nothing_Special_23 Aug 01 '26

No he killed her off because book Alicent is a historic parallel to book Cersei. A woman who's ambition ultimately destorys her entire family.

12

u/MATERYONOMEGON Aug 01 '26

SADLY TRUE.

😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞😞

10

u/___HT___ Aug 01 '26

Rhaenyra is a historic parallel to Cersei. The similarities between them are undeniable. They both:

  1. Formed a personal relationship with the Lord Commander of the King's Guard that turned sour (Criston | Jaime)

  2. Had three bastards and tried to pass them off as legitimate heirs to the iron throne

  3. Had a bastard named Joffrey

  4. Had an infamous master of whispers (Mysaria | Qyburn)

  5. Tried to kill their younger brothers (Aegon ll | Tyrion)

  6. Had brothers who suffered from permanent disabilities (Aemond & Aegon ll | Tyrion & Jaime)

  7. Were incompetent and unpopular Queens

  8. Were known as great beauties when they were younger, but lost their beauty after multiple pregnancies and gluttony (Realm's Delight | Light of the West)

  9. Were obsessed with and threatened by a teenage girl (Nettles | Margaery)

  10. Were the mothers of two kings (Aegon lll & Viserys ll | Joffrey & Tommen)

  11. Were involved in a scandalous incestuous relationship that turned sour after their partners left them for another woman (Nettles | Brienne)

  12. Were compared to Maegor the Cruel ("Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, and as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined." –Tyrion Lannister | "Rhaenyra was proud and stubborn. Though she could be charming, she was quick to anger and never forgot a slight. The girl that they once cheered as the Realm’s Delight, had grown into a grasping and vindictive woman. One wit named Rhaenyra king Maegor with Teats." –Fire & Blood)

  13. All of their bastards died

  14. A religious man apposed their reigns (Shepherd | High Sparrow)

  15. Their mothers died while giving birth to a younger brother (Baelon | Tyrion)

3

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

This'd be way more convincing without Daemon. Especially since part of Alicent's ambition was in response to Rhae's abuse.

1

u/OkObjective845 Aug 06 '26

no not really. his cited reason was math. this is also why he changed viserys ii from aegon iii’s son to his brother. if jaehaera had lived she would have been 20 when daeron was born which he claimed would be odd for them to have been married so long and only had a child at that older age.

-11

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '26

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12

u/alphajugs Aug 01 '26

But her sons live and continue the Targaryen line to the present day of the main story.

11

u/Plus_Claim_8938 Aug 01 '26

Rhaenyra was first created as a parallel to Empress Matilda and her son Aegon III is a parallel to Matilda’s son Henry II.

I would hope no one would describe Empress Matilda as an ambition woman just because she fought against her usurpation by her cousin King Stephen.

1

u/hydromantia Aug 01 '26

the only reason why Matilda got as far as she did is that she had no living legitimate brothers, and even she lost in the end. GRRM fucked up the parallel by giving Rhaenyra 3 trueborn brothers.

0

u/Courbiac2525 Aug 19 '26

But Matilda was not killed/executed, and lived free, just not as queen, her son became king when Stephen died.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '26 edited Aug 01 '26

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1

u/Plus_Claim_8938 Aug 01 '26

All the stuff you mentioned, especially the bastards, was created well after Martin first mentioned Rhaenyra and Aegon III in the Targaryen dynasty tree. The bastard stuff was created like over a decade after Rhaenyra was created. I don’t give a fuck about The Strong Boys.

10

u/alphajugs Aug 01 '26

There’s a lot of things George could’ve written to avoid tragedy but the whole series is tragedy.

9

u/TortoiseHerder7 Aug 01 '26

Like honestly it's dumb, especially in comparison to the favortism to Daemon who is literally demonic. And TBH I'd prefer if the Blackfyres and mainline Targs were descended from Aegon, Jae, and Dae - and thus from Black, Green, and Blue - through a marriage of children of Aegon and Jae in a first marriage and children of Aegon and Dae in a second marriage.

1

u/Plus_Claim_8938 Aug 01 '26

Rhaenyra’s descendants ruled before Daemon the Rogue Prince was ever created. Weird that you don’t even mention her when accounting for bloodlines.

1

u/piratesswoop Aug 03 '26

Is Rhaenyra not the representative of the Black faction bloodline here…?

12

u/Plus_Claim_8938 Aug 01 '26

He canonically had a Velaryon wife before Jaehaera ever existed. She was a fictional character who was only created in order to die for a thematic reason.

Aegon II gets the title. Rhaenyra gets the blood. Mixing the green and black bloodlines is the exact OPPOSITE of what Martin wanted to do. The green bloodline needed to be eradicated for thematic reasons. It’s no deeper than that and people really need to get over it.

12

u/Bloodyjorts Aug 01 '26

He canonically had a Velaryon wife before Jaehaera ever existed.

I don't think it was him specifically, but rather than "Three Targaryen Princes had Velaryon brides", and GRRM decided Aegon III would be one.

GRRM said he wanted to kill Jaehaera because he didn't want the Blackfyre Rebellions to just be "Blacks vs Greens 2.0"...but that could be solved by having Naerys be Aegon and Jaehaera's daughter, that way both the Blackfyres and Targs are descended from both the Blacks and Greens.

5

u/piratesswoop Aug 03 '26

That line drives me crazy because Aegon wasn’t a prince when he married!

8

u/Musegod345 Aug 01 '26

"People really need to get over it"

You know people are allowed to not like writing decisions of the author right? Yes her death serves a purpose that doesn't mean people have to like it. If you don't like it maybe you should get over it?

2

u/OkObjective845 Aug 06 '26

daenaera and jaehaera were created at the same time lol

0

u/Lordnoob69420 Aug 01 '26

Well yes , popped head anything can become cannon, and if enough of them believe in it

3

u/Sad-Scientist4286 Aug 03 '26

Oh my poor babies they had such a tragic life