r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Apr 15 '26
AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday
It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday!
Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.
Please remember to pick an appropriate user-flair in order to participate! Thanks!
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u/Lafi90_ Non-Jewish Atheist Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
Hiya!
I'm sure this question's been asked a bazillion times, but how do y'all deal with people falsely equating or otherwise falsely implying Zionism is vital to Judaism and/or Jews?
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u/jz88k LGBTQ Jew Apr 15 '26
For me, it often depends on who it's coming from, and why. Zionists love to insist that Judaism is synonymous with Zionism, and I have known many fellow Jews who have been so thoroughly immersed in propaganda that they are unwilling to hear anything critical of Israel. There really isn't any way for me to reach them, because they're not open to having their mind changed. For those who are willing to engage, I like to point out a few things (and I'm sure someone else here could help refine my arguments, as I'm not trying to claim I'm some master of argumentation):
- Zionism and the state of Israel cannot be synonymous with Judaism, because Judaism predates them both. If it is possible for a Jew to not back the state of Israel in the past, it's equally possible now.
- The topic of Zionism has been controversial among Jews since its inception. We love to disagree, and Zionism is no exception. And on the nature of disagreement, there's a joke that if you ask two Jews a question, you'll get three answers.
- Israel is committing a genocide. If an ongoing, modern-day genocide is vital to Judaism, that's not a defense of Israel, it's a damning of Judaism.
- I've heard it said that Israel protects Jews from mistreatment, but the existence of an alleged "Jewish state" does little to prevent some kind of future Holocaust, and, I would argue, makes it more permissible for countries to kick Jewish people out and justify it by saying, "Well, they can just go to Israel!"
Having said that, I'm sure there are smarter folks than I who can add to your question. It's an excellent question!
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u/Lafi90_ Non-Jewish Atheist Apr 15 '26
I like your answer. Your responses sound different to what I've heard before because I haven't really heard Jews speak their mind on this. I don't know exactly I'm getting so critical of Zionism and it's inception but for some reason I am. Just the other day I learned of Jacob Israël de Haan which I'm sure you've heard about. His story reads like that of an intellectual who was so smart and well-spoken, his voice posed a very real legitimate threat to Zionism.
I would've liked to see how things had gone hadn't he been assassinated.
Oh and thank you.
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u/jz88k LGBTQ Jew Apr 18 '26
You're welcome! I'm not surprised that you (and many others) are becoming more critical of Zionism. Israel's genocidal campaign against the Palestinians is, now more than ever, being shared in an unedited form on social media. So it's a lot easier to see horrible things happening, and seeing those things happen generally induced disgust and horror.
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u/no_technique Non-Jewish Atheist Apr 15 '26
As I continue to learn more about Israeli culture and the history of conflict, I have come to the conclusion that Israeli citizens are taught and encouraged to treat Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians as lesser humans. Can anyone with first hand knowledge answer some of these questions for my own education?
- How are Palestinians/Muslims portrayed in Israeli education, and how much perspective or context is included?
- Do separate school systems (Jewish vs. Arab) shape attitudes from a young age?
- How much do family, community, and media influence views of Palestinians/Muslims growing up?
- Are there meaningful opportunities for real interaction or coexistence, or is separation the norm?
- How much does mandatory service in the IDF shape perceptions?
- Does interacting mainly in a security/military context reinforce an “us vs. them” mindset?
- Do roles or experiences lead some people to develop more nuanced views, or mostly reinforce existing beliefs?
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u/avecquelamarmotte Israeli Apr 17 '26
Hi! Answering at someone who went through the education system from the nineties to naughties: in advance, I think it has a lot to do with where you grow up and what school you go to. I’ve had very different experiences across three schools and ages.
Palestinians are essentially not included in Jewish Israeli education. They are referred to as Arabs and you get the very standard Zionist narrative of the creation of Israel. This was true across all schools I attended.
I think they do. I never went to an integrated school and met one Palestinian in my whole education who was part of my school (at a gifted program). I did know of integrated schools because my primary school had a partnership with one and my mom worked there. It was for deaf children and I think it was integrated due to a small amount of students, but iirc classes were still segregated.
I’ll skip the question pertaining to Palestinians but about partnerships: I think they’re relatively rare. As mentioned, my primary school had one and it was both an ethnic and disability related integration, but I did learn about Muslim holidays that way which was cool. My high school was semi-private and had a very leftist reputation. We had a partnership with a Palestinian school in which we had two days of visits and one day collaborative workshop. At the time it wasn’t particularly eye opening but looking back it did expose us to some understanding of how Palestinian teens see the world and some things did stick.
The army question is complicated for me because I was at an office research role, and it was also when I started having my big doubts with Zionism. I’d say it’s definitely easier to dehumanise Palestinians as a soldier though, and especially in fighter roles. The army was one of my most right wing educational experiences with commanders who ranged between well-meaning Zionists and outright genocidal maniacs.
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u/GBMediaArchive Jewish Anti-Zionist Apr 15 '26
I don't have first hand experience, but I heard a podcast interview (can't remember the source now), of someone talking about the Israeli school system.
My understanding is that Israeli kids are basically taught only the Jewish history of the land. There is propaganda claiming that most Palestinians moved to the region after the formation of Israel. There is a huge industry of archeology in Israel that tries to prove the Jewish history there (who knows how much Muslim history they are discarding).
I can say from my own experience in a Jewish day camp led by Israelis that they just don't talk about Palestine.
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u/Lost_Paladin89 Judío Apr 15 '26
I would strongly encourage to listen to the Unapologetic podcast. As these Palestinians live in Israel and face this real time. Sadly the episode with the school teacher is in Hebrew, but YouTube has English subtitles. https://youtu.be/_t0YpBUbZfc
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u/Boysandberries0 Non-Jewish Atheist Apr 15 '26
Did you learn Yiddish or Hebrew or anything like that growing up?
Does your family practice like other communities do?
Say, in the US and lot of Latin or other communities of 1st generation immigrants often teach their children their (the parents) 1st language and use it at home.
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u/Accurate_Aside_6495 Bundist Apr 15 '26
I learned some Yiddish words and phrases at home but I would say more colloquially and casually. Like I know a lot of expressions that my family would include in everyday conversation, just because Yiddish often has great expressions. But I also grew up in NYC where even a lot of non-Jews are familiar with some of these words.
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u/gingerbread_nemesis got 613 mitzvot but genocide ain't one Apr 15 '26
Very few kids are brought up speaking Yiddish, as far as I can see it's just in the closed Haredi communities.
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u/Future-Swimming9964 ex-hariedi ex-zionist Apr 15 '26
I grew up chariedi in yeshiva (seminary) we had lessons in Yiddish so I learnt it then. Hebrew we learned in primary school the texts we studied were in hebrew and since I've learned modern Hebrew.
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u/abogmonster Jewish Anti-Zionist Apr 15 '26
Learned to read Hebrew in synagogue for my Bat Mitzvah, but the familial languages were intentionally stamped out by the first gen Americans of my family out of a fear of not looking like they were assimilating properly.
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u/Loves_buttholes Palestinian Apr 15 '26
Do you ever feel tokenized as the “anti-Zionist Jew” amongst Arabs? If so, how and what do you think Arabs can do better to make it a more welcoming environment in the movement?
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u/GBMediaArchive Jewish Anti-Zionist Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
I have not felt tokenized and personally I'm not really sure what it would look like in this situation. If I can further the cause and protect it from baseless accusations of antisemitism, I'm happy to do that.
But to your second question, the only real issue I've encountered is that sometimes people (not necessarily Arabs) seem to question the sincerity of Jewish anti-Zionism and pro-Palestinian beliefs. Recently someone in a different subreddit had some pretty nasty things to say about this subreddit because he thought we are too hung up on Jewish identity and would always "fall back to protecting Israel when it comes down to it." He said this mostly because many of us haven't completely cut off our Zionist relatives and don't openly support what happened on October 7th. While I don't think you need to cater to Jewish feelings, it is also quite hurtful to question if someone really believes in the cause just because they don't take a maximalist stance in openly supporting Hamas (and let's be real, most Americans will never go that far). When we've already had to deal with having our beliefs scrutinized (and often called self-hating or "not real" Jews) by our families and communities over these stances, it feels shitty to also have my "true commitment" questioned by the same people I've been standing up for in arguments with my own family.
But again, I don't think you should have to do anything to cater to Jews, I just don't think purity testing is a good practice in any organizing.
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u/EgoIdVeto West Asian Jew Apr 16 '26
This. I've noticed a gigantic increase in social media/influencers/commentators attacking anti-Zionist Jews for literally no reason, claiming we're "controlled opposition" or that we are all secret liberal Zionists. I think it's a combination between some genuine right wing reactionary antisemites, as well as Israeli propaganda bots/trolls who are trying to make the movement inhospitable to anti-Zionist Jews, because Israel are terrified of the fact that more Jews are joining the movement.
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u/soulsucre Non-Jewish Atheist Apr 15 '26
Hi!
I [25] have been seeing a guy [36] who's Jewish and don't really know his stance on Palestine, although I would be shocked if he was a Zionist for various reasons (Sorry, I am leaving details out for anonymity, but trust me it would be odd of him to hang out with me as much as he does if he was a staunch Zionist. Most people would (correctly) assume I am a leftist.)
I think the combo of him being older AND Jewish makes me unsure how to ask in a manner that isn't super awkward... I also hate the assumption that all Jewish people are Zionists and worry that me even asking is playing into that stereotype and just all around really offensive. But it's a topic I vet any of my lovers for regardless of their religion and I am uncomfortable not clearly knowing the answer. I understand there's a variety of answers he can give regarding solutions, I am not looking for a specific 'correct answer', but I don't want to keep seeing someone who is wildly misaligned from my own values.
I am very non-confrontational so I'm probably just going to bring up a topic that's tangential or casually refers to the conflict and hope I get at least a sliver of an answer out of him. If you think this is worse than just bluntly asking, please tell me. :(
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u/GBMediaArchive Jewish Anti-Zionist Apr 15 '26
Might be easiest just to talk about the war in Iran and see where the conversation goes. Maybe play dumb and ask him to explain the situation in Lebanon for you and see how he frames it, that way you don't have to reveal your true opinions unless you want to.
But also, 36 isn't that old in terms of Zionist leanings, it's typically over 50 that is ideologically captured.
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u/EgoIdVeto West Asian Jew Apr 16 '26
I dunno, I've seen plenty of young people whose pro-Israel views are utterly ironclad.
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u/GBMediaArchive Jewish Anti-Zionist Apr 16 '26
Oh I know, I'm just saying statistically he still falls into the age group that is less likely to be Zionist than over 50s. Sadly it's still a coin toss.
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u/jz88k LGBTQ Jew Apr 15 '26
I would think it's appropriate, maybe while talking about politics, to say something along the lines of, "Hey, I wanted to ask, what's your opinion on Israel and Zionism? I've been a bit unsure about bringing it up because I don't want you to think that I'm asking specifically because you're Jewish and I don't want you to feel hurt or stereotyped, but it's something I've always asked past partners about because it's important to me. Are you comfortable with talking about it?"
Having said that, you know your partner better than I do, so if I'm way off base with that suggestion and it sounds like something he'd react to poorly, I apologize.
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u/Aggorf12345 Non-Jewish Ally Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
In Israel specifically, do anti-Zionist Jews exist in any meaningful numbers? And if so, what would you say is their percentage among the general population? Even if not outright anti-Zionist, what percentage of the population would you say that is critical of the state's crimes against Palestinians and other peoples of the region and want to do something in order to fix them? And my last question is, do you think there is any realistic chance of getting a progressive(again, even if not outright anti-Zionist) government in Israel, that would actually change things for the better, any time soon?
Thank you for your answers
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u/Confident_Tart_6694 Jewish Apr 15 '26
Your first question is hard to answer because the term “anti-Zionist” is now such an abstract term that however one defines it the will get a different answer.
I will say that the largest Jewish Israeli group identifying as “anti Zionist” are ultra Orthodox Jews who reject the secular nature of Israeli state and IDF. But this is not be seen as “anti Zionist” by other definitions.
I would suggest reading this article and other polls by this organisation. It specifically can answer your second question. https://en.idi.org.il/articles/60357
The final question about a realistic chance of a progressive government is that I personally have hope. The current generation and party leadership leading Israel has been leading it since the 90s, with change only emerging in the past 5 years in some parties. Young Israelis certainly have more right wing views than their parents, but also genuinely seems to be willing to experiment and try new things, there is a generation of draftees for the past 3 years who feel failed by their government, just like the generation who put energy in the peace process after having felt failed by their governments in the 73 war and first intifada.
The last possibly “progressive experiment” Israelis did was the Gaza withdrawal in 2005, which was perceived to be reciprocated by the Gaza civil war and the rise of Hamas.
The progressive vision i see would learn the lessons of that withdrawal and be the opposite of radical, it consists of slow gradual progress of small good faith efforts by a brave Israeli leadership, (but not on the level of risk of the Gaza withdrawal), with hopefully small reciprocation by Palestinian grassroots and leadership.
This may start with things such as water rights and check point relaxation, things Israel should anyway do. But if it sets a chain reaction of slow trust building and is not disrupted by extremists , that could make progressivism popular among both Israelis and Palestinians again.
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u/Complex_Country4062 Non-Jewish Ally Apr 15 '26
If my mother's extended tree are Jewish, am I? I was always told we were simply Irish. My Nana's ethnicity was decidedly not Irish but my parents never spoke more about it. Ancestry research after Samhain (I'm pagan, full disclosure) revealed that my great grandmother was Ashkenazi. Now I'm at a thousand people who've been noted, so I paused to regroup and think 🤔