r/Music • u/ebradio • 6h ago

article Taylor Swift sparks chart-blocking accusations with new “Patient Zero” alternate versions

https://www.pastemagazine.com/music/taylor-swift/taylor-swift-sparks-chart-blocking-accusations-with-new-patient-zero-alternate-versions
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u/stvura 5h ago edited 5h ago

Yeah I mean for some reason we all keep pretending she isn’t a hack?? I mean this sincerely like I’ve tried to give Taylor Swift a fair shot and she is just very middling at best as a songwriter, quite mediocre really. I feel genuine sympathetic pity for these people who are so moved by the most shallow kind expression, it’s sad to me. Anyone I’ve ever met that thinks otherwise seemingly has not heard a lot of music generally speaking across time. The collective gaslighting that occurs around her songwriting is unfathomable.

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u/Bigassbird 3h ago

You should meet me. I love some of her stuff and yet I saw Pink Floyd live, Nirvana live twice, Metallica four times and Queen four times too.

Yes, I am an old.

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u/Slight-Owl4300 5h ago

You can dislike Taylor Swift's songwriting without implying that everyone who appreciates it is intellectually inferior or hasn't been exposed to enough music. Music is subjective. The fact that something doesn't resonate with you doesn't mean it lacks depth, and the fact that it resonates with millions of others doesn't mean they're incapable of appreciating more complex art. The irony of calling other people shallow while demonstrating such a limited understanding of how people experience art is pretty funny.

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u/scenior 3h ago

Her weirdo fans need to stop accusing people who don't like her music as being too damn stupid to understand it, too. I have an English lit and writing degree and work in publishing at a major publisher, and so many of her fans will say I would love her music if only I could understand how deep and smart it is. 💀 it's like, no, I just don't think she's a good writer.

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u/Slight-Owl4300 3h ago

And I think that's equally ridiculous. Nobody should be told they're too stupid to understand music they don't enjoy, just as nobody should be told they're intellectually inferior for enjoying it. Your degree and experience inform your opinion, but ultimately it's still subjective. You don't think she's a good writer, and millions of others disagree. Both are entitled to their opinions without questioning each other's intelligence.

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u/goddessofthecats 3h ago

Thanks for saying this. I like Taylor’s music (am also a swiftie!) and I’m not stupid lmao. I like a ton of other music that I’m sure the person you’re responding to does as well .

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u/scenior 3h ago

??? Thank you for explaining subjectivity to me. I was completely unaware that people could have different opinions about art until you walked me through it twice. 💀

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u/Slight-Owl4300 2h ago

You're welcome! Although, given that you were questioning the intelligence of people who disagree with your opinion, I figured the reminder was necessary. The snark is unnecessary, though, and I'm starting to think this has less to do with the music or the charts and more to do with something personal you have against Taylor Swift and the people that like her music.

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u/stvura 2h ago

Hi, it’s you again, you’re doing that thing again where you’re putting words into a comment that weren’t there, stop being insecure please. No one is insulting anyone’s intelligence, you can stop trying to gaslight this commenter.

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u/Slight-Owl4300 2h ago

Ok whatever dude. 

You're the one going out of your way to argue with people over Taylor Swift. You clearly don't like her or her fans, and you're making it personal. 

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u/Excellent_Mango7332 2h ago

I too listen to bands nobody's heard of yet and read obscure literature, tips snoo themed trilby with a knowing wink of recognising a fellow intellectual, good sir

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u/scenior 2h ago

Thank god, I didn't spend all those years studying lit just to have my pretentiousness go unrecognized. 🎩

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u/salvation122 22m ago

She hasn't put out anything worth the absurd cultish devotion her fans show ever. Her last good album was a decade ago

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u/stvura 3h ago edited 2h ago

Nowhere did I say or even imply that someone listening to or enjoying or being moved by her music or comparably shallow expression is stupid or intellectually inferior, I can understand that you might assume that but I’m not even implying I am outright saying it’s a matter of maturity. Her music is not stupid or intellectually inferior, it is immature and childish. It’s also subject to the forces of capitalism, it’s mostly a product above all else. Y’all need to stop constantly projecting insecurity it’s crazy. Like it’s fine to be some mainstream pop status quo industry person but the fact that these people and their fans demand that the rest of us not only be forced to experience their “art” but to add insult injury, pretend like someone like Swift is some kind of virtuoso Beethoven or Shakespeare or something, like get a fucking grip. It’s like they demand to not only dominate the industry from a monetary perspective but also to be treated as some artistic genius when most of these people are really fucking mediocre artists! I can enjoy trash and do and good no-frills fun trash tends to be self-aware. Like imagine if John Waters talked about and treated his films like Bergman or something.

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u/Slight-Owl4300 2h ago

You're entitled to think her music is immature, childish, or mediocre. That's entirely subjective. But it's interesting that you insist you're not making judgments about the people who enjoy her music while simultaneously insulting it using words like "immature," "childish," and "trash." Nobody here has asked you to consider Taylor Swift the next Beethoven or Shakespeare. You're arguing against a position I never took. I simply pointed out that millions of people connect with her music, and dismissing it as shallow doesn't make your interpretation of art any more valid than theirs.

As a side note, I'm starting to think this is less about the music, the sales, or the charts for you and more about your personal dislike of Taylor Swift and her fans. The language you're choosing makes that pretty clear. There's certainly a population of people who genuinely despise her, and sometimes when someone reaches a certain level of success or popularity, people seem more interested in tearing them down than discussing their actual work.

I don't think anything I've said is particularly unreasonable, but I also don't think we're going to find much common ground here, so I'll leave it at this. You don't have to like her music, and you're absolutely entitled to your opinion. But clearly, millions of people do enjoy it, and that's really my point. If other artists want to compete with Taylor on the charts, they need to create music that people want to stream and purchase enough to outperform hers. It's possible, and it's been done.

Hopefully you can at least appreciate where I'm coming from, even if we disagree. I respect your right to your opinion, but I don't think criticizing her fans or dismissing her music as childish really addresses the point I've been making.

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u/stvura 2h ago

It’s the fact that any criticism of her is shouted down, explained away, or otherwise somehow always like just simply a matter of subjectivity and I think me and a lot of other people who’ve been really invested in art throughout our lives have no interest in these kind of conversations, because it’s like this is where the conversation goes every single time anyone lodges any remotely worthwhile criticism against her. I feel like, what if it were just true, some of the things I said? Imagine if it’s actually true that Swift is sort of mediocre. Does that mean that folks can’t enjoy her music? No. And that’s where this stuff really starts to grind my gears. I like things that are maybe not very impressive art, I like things that aren’t always the most wild and innovative thing, and that’s OKAY! I don’t like require that someone tell me that well actually it’s okay for me to enjoy this thing because it also has artistic merit or whether. I would feel so much differently if Swift fans could at least cop to this a little bit, like yeah maybe she’s not really that great, but I like her music and I get some kind of experience from it. Great! Enjoy the experience and leave it at that! And if someone says they think she’s mediocre you could either like choose to be mature and have an interesting conversation or if you’re worried about your feelings being hurt, just move on because it’s obviously not going to be a worthwhile exchange. The last thing I can say about this, if you are so concerned with upholding like that everything is subjective and we all have our tastes and everything’s valid, that’s totally fine and I don’t entirely disagree, but you should avoid critical convos about art because you’re trying to do something else.

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u/Slight-Owl4300 2h ago

think you're missing my point. I've never said Taylor Swift is above criticism, nor have I suggested that enjoying her music automatically makes her some artistic genius. You're absolutely entitled to think she's mediocre. What I take issue with is your insistence that your assessment of her music is somehow an objective truth that her fans need to acknowledge before their enjoyment of it is valid.

You keep suggesting that people who appreciate her songwriting simply haven't been exposed to enough music, lack maturity, or are unwilling to acknowledge inferior art. That's not particularly constructive criticism. That's dismissing people who disagree with you while positioning yourself as someone with a more sophisticated understanding of art.

And ironically, you're now suggesting that the mature response would be for fans to concede that she's mediocre rather than challenge your assessment. Why is your interpretation the one everyone else needs to accept?

I'm perfectly capable of acknowledging that Taylor has songs I don't particularly like or consider especially impressive. That doesn't mean I have to agree with your broader assessment of her talent. Disagreement isn't insecurity, and defending an artist's work isn't an inability to accept criticism.

At the end of the day, I haven't asked you to like Taylor Swift. I've simply challenged the idea that your personal assessment of her music is somehow more legitimate than someone else's. Those are two very different things.

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u/stvura 2h ago

I don’t need them to acknowledge anything, I need them to allow themselves to confidently enjoy something they like and stop creating such a massive brouhaha any time someone says otherwise. I don’t need anyone to concede anything. I’m really trying very hard to respond as earnestly and respectfully but I really feel like that in fact you are missing my point.

Like, someone I really love and who I think is just the greatest is John Cale. If you were to say to me “you know I really just don’t think of Cale as much of a lyricist” I would maybe agree, maybe I would disagree if I thought about it but either way I wouldn’t like demand that you recognize that in fact John Cale must be an amazing lyricist because I like his music and many others do, it’s incredibly weird. Let’s pretend that you said that to me and maybe instead I was fully prepared to contend with that, like maybe inside I think is a great argument to be made here, that’s a conversation I’m interested in and no one has to feel like their feelings are hurt. I’ve been into a lot of weird music for most of my life, I’ve found myself in many situations where my taste is regarded as strange or esoteric and that can be a bit alienating or isolating at times, it’s because of this that I know intimately the experience of getting your feelings hurt because you feel insulted that someone didn’t like what you like, but there’s no reason for me to like be angry at the world for not agreeing with me about what I like, and it doesn’t mean I’m unwilling to maybe try to defend an artist I think is objectively worth defending. Like at a certain point if we just say “I like wha ti like you like what you like everything’s valid” then it feels like why talk about music or have critical discussions about it at all??

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u/Slight-Owl4300 2h ago

I'm not missing your point. I understand it, and I actually agree that people should be able to criticize music without everyone getting upset. But I don't think you're quite as objective as you believe yourself to be.

Out of curiosity, I looked through your comment history. In January, you openly described yourself as a Taylor Swift "hater." In April, you called her fans "clueless," and today you've called her a hack, said you pity people who appreciate her music, and suggested anyone who disagrees simply hasn't listened to enough music.

So who's actually creating the "brouhaha" here? Nobody is saying you can't dislike her music. You're creating that narrative yourself. But apparently people expressing how much they enjoy her music are creating a problem, while you repeatedly posting negative comments about her and insulting her fans is just legitimate artistic criticism? How does that work?

I'm perfectly capable of criticizing Taylor. I think she's released bad songs, fantastic songs, and everything in between. I think she frequently chooses the wrong singles, too. I'm not demanding you agree with me, and I've never suggested she's above criticism.

But there's a difference between thoughtfully critiquing someone's work and belittling the people who appreciate it. You say you want mature conversations about art, yet you repeatedly dismiss people who disagree with you as clueless, immature, or insecure.

The irony is that you're complaining about a brouhaha you're actively helping create. People are allowed to defend music they enjoy just as much as you're allowed to criticize it. Disagreement isn't insecurity, and your opinion isn't inherently more valid than anyone else's.

So help me understand why it's perfectly acceptable for you to express your opinion, but when Swift fans express theirs, it's suddenly a "brouhaha." Why is your opinion legitimate artistic criticism, while theirs is insecurity or immaturity? Especially when you're the one repeatedly making it personal by insulting both the artist and her fans. How is that not hypocritical?

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u/abovepostisfunnier 4h ago

Imagine being this fucking pretentious.

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u/PenguinStardust 5h ago

Wow you are so deep and different.

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u/keonyn 3h ago

Yeah, it's funny when the contrarian hipsters come out when an artist hits the top. To even try and pretend she's a hack after her career and portfolio at this point is just delusional. People can dislike her music all they want, and I don't care for it either, but it's silly to try and pretend she got to where she is by being mediocre hack.

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u/stvura 2h ago

Just because something is popular does not mean it has aesthetic value or that it’s “good”, like I know it sounds “pretentious” but it’s just the facts like very basic stuff. Y’all just demand that not only we recognize her ability to dominate the charts but also that we all capitulate to the idea that she has only dominated the charts as a measure of her talent, which is wrong. Did Britney dominate the charts because she was like this genius big-brain lyricist? Does it matter if she was?

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u/Adventurous_Egg_9500 4h ago

Quick show me the best song writer you have and all 11 followers of theirs.

Thats how these comments always read to me. BUT THEY DON'T KNOW MUSIC!

And then you like, show us lil dickie's worst song.

Ohhhhh everyone is so dumb! They just don't know!

Meanwhile Taylor's song reaches a billion people and is dominating worldwide clearly shows she is reaching an audience. How bad could these songs be? Clearly they aren't shit.

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u/stvura 2h ago edited 2h ago

IMO Natalie Merring is one of the best songwriters alive. You know, Weyes Blood and her 11 followers. Thank you for reminding me her music is only as good as the amount of “fans” she has. I could go on really. Sky Ferreira and Caroline Polachek both are pop singers essentially and they are leagues better songwriters than Swift.

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u/cowie71 3h ago

You need to meet more people

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u/loveheaddit 5h ago

love takes like this cuz its clear you've only listened to the singles.

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u/jtl909 5h ago

Neil Tennant had her pegged long ago. In summation, he said for supposedly being an important giga-star she sure has a limited repertoire/memorable catalogue.