Taylor Swift sparks chart-blocking accusations with new “Patient Zero” alternate versions

[u/ebradio]

https://www.pastemagazine.com/music/taylor-swift/taylor-swift-sparks-chart-blocking-accusations-with-new-patient-zero-alternate-versions

[u/stvura]

Nowhere did I say or even imply that someone listening to or enjoying or being moved by her music or comparably shallow expression is stupid or intellectually inferior, I can understand that you might assume that but I’m not even implying I am outright saying it’s a matter of maturity. Her music is not stupid or intellectually inferior, it is immature and childish. It’s also subject to the forces of capitalism, it’s mostly a product above all else. Y’all need to stop constantly projecting insecurity it’s crazy. Like it’s fine to be some mainstream pop status quo industry person but the fact that these people and their fans demand that the rest of us not only be forced to experience their “art” but to add insult injury, pretend like someone like Swift is some kind of virtuoso Beethoven or Shakespeare or something, like get a fucking grip. It’s like they demand to not only dominate the industry from a monetary perspective but also to be treated as some artistic genius when most of these people are really fucking mediocre artists! I can enjoy trash and do and good no-frills fun trash tends to be self-aware. Like imagine if John Waters talked about and treated his films like Bergman or something.

[u/Slight-Owl4300 → u/stvura]

You're entitled to think her music is immature, childish, or mediocre. That's entirely subjective. But it's interesting that you insist you're not making judgments about the people who enjoy her music while simultaneously insulting it using words like "immature," "childish," and "trash." Nobody here has asked you to consider Taylor Swift the next Beethoven or Shakespeare. You're arguing against a position I never took. I simply pointed out that millions of people connect with her music, and dismissing it as shallow doesn't make your interpretation of art any more valid than theirs.

As a side note, I'm starting to think this is less about the music, the sales, or the charts for you and more about your personal dislike of Taylor Swift and her fans. The language you're choosing makes that pretty clear. There's certainly a population of people who genuinely despise her, and sometimes when someone reaches a certain level of success or popularity, people seem more interested in tearing them down than discussing their actual work.

I don't think anything I've said is particularly unreasonable, but I also don't think we're going to find much common ground here, so I'll leave it at this. You don't have to like her music, and you're absolutely entitled to your opinion. But clearly, millions of people do enjoy it, and that's really my point. If other artists want to compete with Taylor on the charts, they need to create music that people want to stream and purchase enough to outperform hers. It's possible, and it's been done.

Hopefully you can at least appreciate where I'm coming from, even if we disagree. I respect your right to your opinion, but I don't think criticizing her fans or dismissing her music as childish really addresses the point I've been making.

[u/stvura → u/Slight-Owl4300]

It’s the fact that any criticism of her is shouted down, explained away, or otherwise somehow always like just simply a matter of subjectivity and I think me and a lot of other people who’ve been really invested in art throughout our lives have no interest in these kind of conversations, because it’s like this is where the conversation goes every single time anyone lodges any remotely worthwhile criticism against her. I feel like, what if it were just true, some of the things I said? Imagine if it’s actually true that Swift is sort of mediocre. Does that mean that folks can’t enjoy her music? No. And that’s where this stuff really starts to grind my gears. I like things that are maybe not very impressive art, I like things that aren’t always the most wild and innovative thing, and that’s OKAY! I don’t like require that someone tell me that well actually it’s okay for me to enjoy this thing because it also has artistic merit or whether. I would feel so much differently if Swift fans could at least cop to this a little bit, like yeah maybe she’s not really that great, but I like her music and I get some kind of experience from it. Great! Enjoy the experience and leave it at that! And if someone says they think she’s mediocre you could either like choose to be mature and have an interesting conversation or if you’re worried about your feelings being hurt, just move on because it’s obviously not going to be a worthwhile exchange. The last thing I can say about this, if you are so concerned with upholding like that everything is subjective and we all have our tastes and everything’s valid, that’s totally fine and I don’t entirely disagree, but you should avoid critical convos about art because you’re trying to do something else.

[u/Slight-Owl4300 → u/stvura]

think you're missing my point. I've never said Taylor Swift is above criticism, nor have I suggested that enjoying her music automatically makes her some artistic genius. You're absolutely entitled to think she's mediocre. What I take issue with is your insistence that your assessment of her music is somehow an objective truth that her fans need to acknowledge before their enjoyment of it is valid.

You keep suggesting that people who appreciate her songwriting simply haven't been exposed to enough music, lack maturity, or are unwilling to acknowledge inferior art. That's not particularly constructive criticism. That's dismissing people who disagree with you while positioning yourself as someone with a more sophisticated understanding of art.

And ironically, you're now suggesting that the mature response would be for fans to concede that she's mediocre rather than challenge your assessment. Why is your interpretation the one everyone else needs to accept?

I'm perfectly capable of acknowledging that Taylor has songs I don't particularly like or consider especially impressive. That doesn't mean I have to agree with your broader assessment of her talent. Disagreement isn't insecurity, and defending an artist's work isn't an inability to accept criticism.

At the end of the day, I haven't asked you to like Taylor Swift. I've simply challenged the idea that your personal assessment of her music is somehow more legitimate than someone else's. Those are two very different things.

[u/stvura → u/Slight-Owl4300]

I don’t need them to acknowledge anything, I need them to allow themselves to confidently enjoy something they like and stop creating such a massive brouhaha any time someone says otherwise. I don’t need anyone to concede anything. I’m really trying very hard to respond as earnestly and respectfully but I really feel like that in fact you are missing my point.

Like, someone I really love and who I think is just the greatest is John Cale. If you were to say to me “you know I really just don’t think of Cale as much of a lyricist” I would maybe agree, maybe I would disagree if I thought about it but either way I wouldn’t like demand that you recognize that in fact John Cale must be an amazing lyricist because I like his music and many others do, it’s incredibly weird. Let’s pretend that you said that to me and maybe instead I was fully prepared to contend with that, like maybe inside I think is a great argument to be made here, that’s a conversation I’m interested in and no one has to feel like their feelings are hurt. I’ve been into a lot of weird music for most of my life, I’ve found myself in many situations where my taste is regarded as strange or esoteric and that can be a bit alienating or isolating at times, it’s because of this that I know intimately the experience of getting your feelings hurt because you feel insulted that someone didn’t like what you like, but there’s no reason for me to like be angry at the world for not agreeing with me about what I like, and it doesn’t mean I’m unwilling to maybe try to defend an artist I think is objectively worth defending. Like at a certain point if we just say “I like wha ti like you like what you like everything’s valid” then it feels like why talk about music or have critical discussions about it at all??

[u/Slight-Owl4300 → u/stvura]

I'm not missing your point. I understand it, and I actually agree that people should be able to criticize music without everyone getting upset. But I don't think you're quite as objective as you believe yourself to be.

Out of curiosity, I looked through your comment history. In January, you openly described yourself as a Taylor Swift "hater." In April, you called her fans "clueless," and today you've called her a hack, said you pity people who appreciate her music, and suggested anyone who disagrees simply hasn't listened to enough music.

So who's actually creating the "brouhaha" here? Nobody is saying you can't dislike her music. You're creating that narrative yourself. But apparently people expressing how much they enjoy her music are creating a problem, while you repeatedly posting negative comments about her and insulting her fans is just legitimate artistic criticism? How does that work?

I'm perfectly capable of criticizing Taylor. I think she's released bad songs, fantastic songs, and everything in between. I think she frequently chooses the wrong singles, too. I'm not demanding you agree with me, and I've never suggested she's above criticism.

But there's a difference between thoughtfully critiquing someone's work and belittling the people who appreciate it. You say you want mature conversations about art, yet you repeatedly dismiss people who disagree with you as clueless, immature, or insecure.

The irony is that you're complaining about a brouhaha you're actively helping create. People are allowed to defend music they enjoy just as much as you're allowed to criticize it. Disagreement isn't insecurity, and your opinion isn't inherently more valid than anyone else's.

So help me understand why it's perfectly acceptable for you to express your opinion, but when Swift fans express theirs, it's suddenly a "brouhaha." Why is your opinion legitimate artistic criticism, while theirs is insecurity or immaturity? Especially when you're the one repeatedly making it personal by insulting both the artist and her fans. How is that not hypocritical?

[u/stvura → u/Slight-Owl4300]

Lmao girl get help, none of this is so serious that you need to inspect my comment history like a freak. That being said, yeah, I think I can lay out this time line of getting shouted down for disagreeing with the popular perception of Swift, something that commenters I guess like you pretend like doesn’t happen? You pretend like her fans aren’t notorious for going on the attack for even perceived minor slights against her. I got used to getting called a hater any time I said anything even remotely less than glowing about her and so at a certain point I sort of started to get some maybe perverted glee from assuming the role of a hater after all, if that is in fact apparently the case. Like I don’t know what to tell you, it’s fun to antagonize those that get a pass for being nasty and generally unhinged online. Bottom line, she’s mediocre. Like her or don’t, I don’t care, but stop trying to gaslight the rest of us about it, and even if someone were to say something so innocent like “I don’t think she’s a good songwriter” if you disagree with that position say “ok” or you can present a worthwhile argument.