r/MusicEd • u/Despondent_Glitter89 • 4d ago
Strings- what skills should they know after middle school?
Hi all, I’m new to this group. I’m wondering if US 5th grade and middle school teachers can give me an idea of how much students learn each year by just participating in school orchestra. If a student starts in 5th grade as a beginner with orchestra once a week, how much progress will they have made? Reading simple music, playing on all strings in D major 1st position, correct bow hold and posture? Or would those things be achieved in 6th grade, with orchestra class 2-3 days a week?
When a student enters high school having played 3+ years in school orchestra, not taking private lessons, what is the realistic level of playing? Would they be learning 3rd position, vibrato, bowing techniques? When do they learn about composers, eras of orchestral music, etc?
I’m looking at my school’s orchestra curriculum (private school) and trying to assess whether the students are meeting the standards for any average school. I know it can vary widely, but the string students at my school seem to be lagging and are not close to being able to audition for youth symphony in high school.
I value any input or perspectives you have. Thanks!
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u/Reasonable-Cow7255 4d ago
They should beegin shifting between first position and third position (violin/viola), first through fourth position (cello), or half through fourth position (bass).
They should know what vibrato is and begin to explore it.
The should know basic bowings: martélé, detaché, spiccato, pizzicato, etc.
They should be able to play two and (some) three-octave scales in D Major, G Major, A Major, C Major and (perhaps) F Major.
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u/itsgoodpain 4d ago
Taught HS orchestra for seven years before only teaching band -- totally agree with these skills needed!
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u/Despondent_Glitter89 4d ago
That’s helpful! Thanks!
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u/Reasonable-Cow7255 4d ago
Most method books provide sequential lessons that will cover those skills by Book 3.
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u/broodfood 4d ago
that seems like a bit too much in my personal experience. my very urban school system started strings in 4th grade, and in middle school met for one hour 5x per week, plus a free program every summer.
by ninth grade, the private lesson kids might have started position work and vibrato. nobody was doing 3-octave scales- which requires at minimum 5th position.
those of us without private lessons didn't receive instruction on positions or vibrato. individual technique was mostly fluency in the basic key signatures, say F up to A major, in first position.
what we focused on a lot was ensemble skills- articulations, syncopation, entrances and dynamics. that kind of thing.
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u/Despondent_Glitter89 3d ago
I guess to narrow down my question, if a 6th grade beginner has orchestra 2-3 times a week at school, and no private lessons, what basic skills would they have at the end of the year?
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u/mad_jade Orchestra 1d ago
I would say the ability to play in D, G and C major keys, play one 2-octave scale (G for violins, C for viola/cello, basses don't need to worry about that yet), play detache and staccato, play in 4/4, 3/4, and 2/4 time signatures, play with rhythms involving whole, half, dotted half, quarter, and eighth notes in groups of 2 and 4.
Also they should have good posture and bow holds, and be able to use their elbows to bow. They should know rest and playing position for concert etiquette. They should be able to pizz with the bow in their hands.
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u/Violaman506 4d ago
I think without a private teacher this would be hard to accomplish in 3 years.
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u/Reasonable-Cow7255 4d ago
I taught middle school orchestra for 42 years. We always developed these skills in a classroom setting.
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u/Violaman506 3d ago edited 3d ago
So your telling me the average students that had no private instruction, were on the level of Suzuki book 3 student in 3 years, when the only instruction time is in class, with 25-50 others 2-3 times a week? How much one on one time are you giving each student? Are you correcting tension when you see each of them shifting, or attempting vibrato because they don’t understand the motion yet? Maybe if you saw them every day, this would be possible.
Also, 3 octave scales use up to 5th position at minimum on violin and viola.
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u/Reasonable-Cow7255 3d ago
I never used the Suzuki books in public school group instruction. But I did successfully use all three levels of the common method books such as Essential Elements for Strings and other similar ones. I also supplemented with my own exercises and materials. We met as a daily class (five days a week). Private lessons were not a part of the equation for nearly all of my students. Few, if any had instruments of their own. They used school-owned instruments. Most of my career was spent in low income, inner city communities serving disadvantaged students. Those musical skills are expected and necessary. They are part of both state and district standards. The school ensembles performed typical middle school literature at Grades 1-3 (beginning through advanced for middle school) and frequently earned top honors at adjudicated festivals and competitions. Not all scales were three-octaves, but some were.
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u/Violaman506 3d ago
Very lucky your district valued music so much, and seeing them five days a week makes your list much more understandable. Changing that to 2 or even 3 days a week I beleive changes the goal post. I would not be targeting vibrato by year 3 or any 3 octave scales if that were the case. Also, every 3 octave scale uses at least 5th position on violin and viola.
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u/singing-aardvark 3d ago
I truly do have a hard time believing that this person was teaching in a situation where most students were not studying privately, or was teaching in an incredibly small program, or a mix of the two.
There are districts around me where kids are learning this stuff going into like 7/8th grade but they’re essentially required to study privately to keep up. I once told a student from a local district (not mine) that I started playing in third grade and she literally exclaimed, “oh my gosh that makes me feel so much better; I really want to major in music but I started in fourth grade, and that’s so, so late!”
I grew up in a district that churns out musicians and music teachers and even we weren’t going beyond a like, two octave d or g scale going into HS.
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u/singing-aardvark 4d ago edited 4d ago
There are so many factors that go into this and one size does not fit all, like you said. What percentage of students are taking private lessons, how often do they meet, do they only meet in large ensemble groups or do they also get pull out lessons, etc.
My kids start in fourth grade, once a week heterogenous lessons. 10-25 kids depending on the day. We get through songs using low 2 (minor brother John, ah poor bird). We stay in D major aside from that. Just the D and A string and maybe the occasional open g or first finger on the g string. In fifth it’s the same lesson set up and we do 3/4, add in the other strings, and get through G and C major as best as we can. They end their year with William tell from essential elements so we’re doing hooks, slurs…again as best as we can haha
In middle school we see them every other day for 45 minutes, one sixth grade class and one 7/8 class. My 7/8 group is like 70 kids. I try to get into shifting but we are unlikely to truly do pieces requiring shifting until HS, because otherwise I’d be teaching one piece over the course of the whole year.
They’re playing mostly in D, G, C and their relative minors, and in basic time signatures (4/4, 3/4, 6/8).
There are districts around me where their MS kids could play circles around my high schoolers, but they’re significantly more affluent and it’s kind of an expectation that they study privately (one school literally has “learning your instrument doesn’t happen in band!” on their website). Most of my students could not audition for any of our local youth orchestras, but I live and teach in an area where Csardas is the audition for 7th graders.
Tl;dr - I’m happy if my kids come to HS knowing how to read the notes on their staff, understand basic theory and key signatures, and can play music around a grade 1.5-2, in tune, with nice phrasing and dynamics. I don’t live by it, but more or less comfortable with the content of essential elements book 2. We see them every day for an hour in HS so they catch up really quickly. In my HS group we are catching freshmen up on vibrato, shifting, etc. The older kids have all learned how to do it at this point. In MS my goal is to meet them where they’re at and get them to stick with it and get excited to play in HS. The drop off from 8th to 9th grade can be steep!