r/Nirvana • u/Training_Newt_745 Dive • Apr 24 '26
Discussion Courtney Love’s influence on Kurt’s development as a songwriter
cOuRtnEy lOvE wRoTe iN uTeRo
Just kidding, I don’t think Courtney Love wrote In Utero. That’s as absurd a statement as saying Kurt wrote Live Through This, which so many delusional Nirvana fanboys are fond of claiming despite all the evidence to the contrary (many LTT demos predate their relationship, continuities in songwriting with Hole’s previous record Pretty On the Inside, the fact that Hole were more popular and Courtney was an extremely confident songwriter when they first met, etc.).
Of course Kurt influenced Courtney’s development as a songwriter— this is to be expected in any relationship between two creative people working in the same field. But I recently sat down and listened to Nirvana’s music chronologically and something occurred me: Courtney must have helped develop Kurt’s skills as much as he did hers.
Now, let me preface this by saying I’m a HUGE fan of Nirvana and I think Kurt Cobain is a motherfucking genius who absolutely warrants all the acclaim for his musical legacy. That said, the songwriting on Bleach is atrocious. Let’s look at Exhibit A from the song “About a Girl”— the most popular song on the album (and a song that I really like too):
I need an easy friend, I do/ With an ear to lend, I do/ Think you fit this shoe, I do/ But you have a clue.
Okay these are objectively stupid lyrics (and no one can tell me otherwise so don’t try), and Bleach is full of many such moments. Of course, there are also many moments of lyrical genius (e.g., “Floyd the Barber” is as close to lyrical perfection as any song in modern rock). But overall, and more often than not, Kurt’s lyrics veer toward vapid, and this continues into Nevermind despite its being a near perfect record (Exhibit B: the lyrics of the most popular song on that album too). Nevermind is clearly leaps and bounds ahead of Bleach in terms of songwriting, but still lacks the depth and sophistication of In Utero in my opinion.
I’ll be the first to admit that much of this is the natural progression of a young songwriter getting better with age and experience, but my point is Courtney must also helped drive this maturity and greater proficiency. Here are a couple of moments we can look to to support this claim:
Heart-Shaped Box is very Courtney coded, not just in the sense that it’s about her (which we all know), but also in that it quite literally channels her own style as a lyricist. Take for example a line like “I cut myself on angel hair and baby’s breath”, which could be straight out of Hole’s POTI (with its intertwining of the soft and feminine with violent and jarring imagery) or LTT (with its fixation on the violence and pathology of motherhood and childbirth). Kurt isn’t just singing about her but he’s singing LIKE her.
Rape Me could basically be a Hole song. Not only does it rework the riff of the Hole’s Beautiful Son (which was about Kurt), but it reworks themes that Courtney had spent years elaborating upon in her lyrics (see “Teenage Whore” and “Asking for It” for two prime examples of Hole songs which examine fame through the lens of sexual violence).
I feel the influence of Courtney most strongly on the song “Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge on Seattle”— the song that Kurt was most proud of lyrically. And don’t get me wrong— the line “I miss the comfort in being sad” is 100% classic Kurt Cobain genius artistry. But I don’t believe he would have been compelled to write a song like this if it hadn’t been for Courtney’s influence. It was she, not Kurt, who was obsessed with Old Hollywood and its tragic females. She had even written such a song on LTT with “Jennifer’s Body,” which was in part about the actress/Manson victim Sharon Tate and the character of Jennifer North which Tate played in the film Valley of the Dolls.
Again, I’m not trying to take anything away from KC— I think he was a genius in his own right. But was so was CL. And I think it’s high time Nirvana fans stopped pitting them against each other and appreciate the very obviously fruitful and mutually beneficial collaborative relationship by two people who went on to produce some of the finest rock music of the 90s. That’s all!
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u/Vostin Apr 24 '26
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I’m pretty sure there’s a home video in the documentary where they’re jamming together, Kurt comes up with a riff, and says something like, “you can have that one.” Live Through This is obviously Kurt inspired, just like Celebrity Skin is Corgan inspired, but Courtney for sure wrote the lyrics and vocal harmonies which carry the Live Through This songs especially. Similar to Nirvana in a way, the riffs were fairly simple but the vocal melodies are the true genius. Courtney took a page out of his book.
My opinion is that they inspired each other for these albums. How could they not? They were married, living, and playing together.
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u/lysergicbaby Apr 24 '26
I guess fair enough, but why do people act like Hole isn't a band? Because Courtney's so famous/infamous? Do people think Eric Erlandson never came up with his own riffs? He's a good guitarist himself.
Courtney's biggest talent has always been lyrics (and being a great performer) but Hole also had a lead guitarist, bass player, and drummer...
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u/PsychologicalYoung5 Apr 24 '26
I think Courtney was covering Where Did You Sleep Last Night as far back as 1989, so inspired Kurt to also cover it
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u/CitrineSanela Paper Cuts Apr 24 '26
No. Nirvana started covering "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" in 1989.
Here's a live version from 1989 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvUJ7ifbsQcCourtney/Hole played it live often in 1991, but I don't know if they did so before 1991.
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u/Avie_lingness Beeswax Apr 24 '26
Yeah Nirvana covered that song early on, and also other songs by Lead Belly, the man who originally wrote the song.
And it wasn't only Kurt who was a fan of Lead Belly back then. Mark Lanegan also sang Where Did You Sleep Last Night, and covered it on his debut solo album in 1990.2
u/ThatsARatHat Apr 25 '26
Lead Belly didn’t write it. He recorded perhaps the most well known version but the original writer is unknown.
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u/Avie_lingness Beeswax Apr 24 '26
You are a huge Nirvana fan, and yet you say the songwriting on Bleach is atrocious... Wow okay.
Saying that Rape Me reworks the riff from Beautiful Son is nonsense. Rape Me was written long before Beautiful Son. Nirvana played Rape Me live, before Kurt and Courtney even got together.
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u/maxoakland Jun 11 '26
There's a story I read about Hole recording Beautiful Son. Eric kept trying to rework the riff because he thought it sounded too much like Smells Like Teen Spirit but Courtney wouldn't let him because she really wanted to write a song as good as Teen Spirit and that was one of her first attempts
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u/yikesireddit Apr 24 '26
I appreciate you putting the opinion out there and providing us with your subjective evidence. I think your post has an inaccuracy. You stated that on Bleach, the songwriting is atrocious but don’t describe the music at all. Your whole point seems to be about the lyrics and imagery. Don’t forget that he wrote ALL of it, and the songwriting was amazing. His lyrics were not always, and even he seemed to have a laissez faire approach to them at times, where melody, cadence, and timing were of more import to him.
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u/Training_Newt_745 Dive Apr 24 '26
I agree— I was focusing pretty narrowly on the lyrics, but I think because his lyricism is comparatively SO GOOD in In Utero. But you’re right, and I do love Bleach and most of the songs on the album are musically incredible.
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u/statelesspirate000 Apr 24 '26
So by songwriting you mean lyric writing
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u/Training_Newt_745 Dive Apr 24 '26
Primarily, yes. He was vastly her superior in rock composition so I can’t imagine her influencing him much in that regard. On the other hand, Courtney has flat out stated she didn’t know how to write a bridge until Kurt taught her.
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u/Avie_lingness Beeswax Apr 24 '26
I don't believe there's any documented instance of Courtney saying Kurt taught her how to write a bridge? When some fans criticized Hole for being sell-outs (because Through This was softer than their earlier music) she responded by saying "I know how to write a bridge now", but didn't mention Kurt
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u/Sea-Hedgehog-9654 Apr 24 '26
Floyd the Barber as close to lyrical perfection as any song in modern rock??????
Wow.
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u/Jaltcoh Sifting Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
This reads as not trying to make a serious argument but just trying to turn the tables on people who say Kurt Cobain wrote Hole’s material.
You’re ignoring basic facts and presenting Hole in a way that not even Courtney Love agrees with.
You’re talking about Hole purely in terms of Courtney being the songwriter (with some possible input from Kurt).
But Courtney Love has admitted that she’s not capable of writing a full song herself.
You’re ignoring what she said — ironically, in a rush to give Courtney as much credit as possible.
Let’s listen to what Courtney Love has actually said, which is: she wasn’t the sole songwriter of any of the songs on Live Through This. Eric Erlandson cowrote them with her.
Later, it was Billy Corgan writing Hole songs, again according to Courtney Love.
Whether Kurt Cobain contributed more to Hole than has been admitted, and whether that explains how Hole went from a barely listenable album (Pretty on the Inside) to one of the masterpieces of ‘90s alt rock (Live Through This), I don’t know.
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u/Busy-Peach5770 Apr 25 '26
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6a/9c/f1/6a9cf1ee121987f32e9b3c16d603b598.jpg
Billy Corgan wrote on 5 out of 12 songs on 'Celebrity Skin'. This was clearly stated in the album booklet for 'Celebrity Skin' (each song has the writers credited - Corgan is represented by the swan symbol).
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u/PsychologicalYoung5 Apr 24 '26
Eric and Melissa say that Billy Corgan came in to tinker with like, two songs on Celebrity Skin. He did not write most of the songs on celebrity skin.
Live Through This songs like Violet were being played before her relationship with Kurt.
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u/lysergicbaby Apr 24 '26
Pretty on the Inside was outselling Bleach at the time of their releases. And is pretty acclaimed. You apparently dislike it, but most 90s rock fans do appreciate it...
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u/lysergicbaby Apr 25 '26
Also, she's listed as the sole writer for Doll Parts. It's not hard to look up writing credits, but that would require people who dislike her to acknowledge that her name is on nearly all of them.
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u/Objective_Bicycle_37 Apr 24 '26
“Was Outselling Bleach At The Time”
many such cases. Make a band great, it does not.
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u/Joseph_P_Larkin Apr 24 '26
I appreciate what you’re saying but realistically Courtney only inspired 2 songs Kurt wrote: Heart Shaped Box & Moist Vagina. Curiously, both are about Courtney’s vagina. As someone else pointed out, most of the songs off In Utero were written in 1990 with the bulk of Nevermind.
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u/Training_Newt_745 Dive Apr 24 '26
According to the Wiki, IU songs were written between 1990-1993. KC and CL met in January 1990 and began dating in the spring of 1991 and married early 1992, so the timelines are at least intertwined.
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u/Training_Newt_745 Dive Apr 24 '26
I should also add Courtney wrote about her vagina a lot too. Her band was called Hole.
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Busy-Peach5770 Apr 25 '26
Thanks for posting this. Imagine calling yourself a fan of 90's alternative rock and not knowing this lore!
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u/lueur-d-espoir Sep 15 '26
Hey, do you remember what the og comment here mentioned? I was curious and they deleted everything.
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u/lueur-d-espoir Sep 15 '26
Thing about song writers is they will have 100 unfinished projects they're working on at any time and say, suddenly they're working on a new album, they pull up their old material and no suprise, they're drawn to stuff that relates to their current life situation. Then, because most are unfinished or need tweaking, they finish and change them to fit what's currently going on and that's how an old write up can become written about someone who came along later.
Just saying, not just for this but any time it happens. Old material written before meeting someone is often rehashed to be about someone current with writers. That doesn't disprove anything. Even if it's just a one word tweak to change a name or place that would apply to that person, they were thinking of them when they pulled it up, chose that it makes the cut write now, and changed a detail to fit the song to them. It becomes completely about them even if it originally wasn't and that's kinda naturally human and touching.
It's like a tailor buying a beautiful fabric just because they feel it's beautiful but with no clear idea what to do with it yet, then they meet someone and suddenly they know exactly what they want to do with it. It was meant for them.
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Pollyfall Apr 24 '26
Agreed, he’s right, and the books back it up. Didn’t she help him workshop Pennyroyal Tea, too? Like, pretty close advice.
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u/Avie_lingness Beeswax Apr 24 '26
She didn't help him write Pennyroyal Tea. It was written in 1990.
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u/stroppo Apr 24 '26
She claimed that. But if you listen to the song before he met her and then after, I don't think she had any influence.
I think her supposed "influence" on Kurt (and vice versa) is way overstated.
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Apr 24 '26
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u/BillShooterOfBul Apr 24 '26
I mean there is a similarity in their vocal styles and their songs, but they were always there. I chalk it up to convergent evolution, with the caveat that I do think Courtney was heavily influenced by Kurt and Billy corgan.
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u/AnachronistNo1 Apr 24 '26
And the Billy Corgan relation actually adds to the whole Old Hollywood thing.
Kurt & Courtney had Frances Farmer, Billy had the silent film star, Lillian Gish.
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u/Caesarthebard Apr 24 '26
Courtney 💯 influenced him lyrically. He was open in his admiration, he tried to ape her style and various people reported she was constantly pushing to take lyrics more seriously.
I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to accept.
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u/King_of_da_Castle Apr 24 '26
I just went and read some of the lyrics from songs on “Pretty on the Inside” and Courtney wasn’t exactly Tom Waits, John Lennon, Joni Mitchell or Leonard Cohen herself lol. They were pretty juvenile and “silly” themselves.
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u/Ashamed-Story7958 Apr 24 '26
I think the lyrics on that album are great and very evocative
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u/King_of_da_Castle Apr 24 '26
That’s fine, and you are entitled to feel that way. I personally felt they were a bit juvenile for her age and a bit on the “edgelord” side, which once again is fine, music is a form of therapy and she obviously had things she needed to get off her chest at the time.
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u/PsychologicalYoung5 Apr 24 '26
How is it edgelord? It’s mostly raw screaming about rape
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u/King_of_da_Castle Apr 24 '26
"It's unlistenable—that record was a calling card for rock critics and hardcorers, [saying] "This is what I do, and I'm not going to back down from it. I am announcing my persona as a cunt." - Courtney Love
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u/PsychologicalYoung5 Apr 24 '26
I don’t see how this proves anything you’re saying at all. She also has many interviews talking about how she working with the archetype of the bitch and whore through noise inspired music.
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u/King_of_da_Castle Apr 24 '26
Additionally I’m not trashing her, just thought her lyrics were a little bit juvenile for her age, but as I said earlier, music is therapy for some people and it seemed to be for Courtney. She obviously went through a lot of fucked up shit and needed to trauma dump on that first album. I get it, just wasn’t very eloquent as compared to her later lyrics, which was the original point of the post about her affecting Kurt’s growth as an artist. My point is she was allowed to grow as an artist and I think Kurt should be allowed to as well without having to give credit to someone else for his growth, just like I don’t think Billy Corgan is responsible for Courtney becoming a better songwriter. Artists take from everywhere. I’m not trashing her lyrics on that album just giving my opinion on them at the time and how I still feel about them today.
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u/Training_Newt_745 Dive Apr 24 '26
Totally agree. She also developed and matured as a songwriter tremendously
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u/King_of_da_Castle Apr 24 '26
So then it’s possible Kurt did as well, she had 6 years on Kurt, so she was much older writing Pretty on the Inside in 1991 than Kurt was writing Bleach in 1989. Not trying to be difficult but you are allowing for a much older Courtney Love to grow as an artist on her own when it’s well known she had help from people like Billy Corgan with her song writing, yet you are attributing Kur’s artistic growth to Courtney. I don’t really see that as someone who lived through it at the time, just my opinion though.
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u/Avie_lingness Beeswax Apr 24 '26
6 years on Kurt? Wasn't Courtney born in July 1964? That makes her roughly 2½ years older than Kurt
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u/minimumrockandroll Apr 24 '26
Dunno about musically, but Courtney is, by miles and miles, a better lyricist than Kurt ever was.
In Utero has better lyrics than the other records. I reckon either she helped, or he stepped up his game to try to get closer to her level
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u/Objective_Bicycle_37 Apr 24 '26
Some people don’t understand lyricism. I love a good writers, writer. Like Cohen. But the simple lyrics to a song like Something in The Way are equally genius (and blow away anything Courtney wrote imo)
Its often far harder to do something well simply. A poet is trying to say what cannot be said, and greatness is how close you can get with any style. Kurt obviously blows Hole out of the water here.
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u/minimumrockandroll Apr 25 '26
Nope! Kurt was a kind of stream is consciousness dada lyricist. It's fine, but not good. It's okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings, y'know?
Courtney was pointed, incisive, and inventive. Closer to Cohen. Tricky wordplay, and I would KILL to come up with something as Kurt-simple as "someday you will ache like I ache".
Love absolutely takes the literary win with lyrics. Surprising, narrative, smart. Cobain had some stuff in a journal.
Love Nirvana, but Hole takes the lyrics award easily.
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u/Vegetable_Hand8674 Apr 24 '26
“I need an easy friend, I do/ With an ear to lend, I do” is just as interesting as “I miss the comfort in being sad”
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u/pooflaps50 Apr 24 '26
Well obviously anyone that you’re passionately and toxically infatuated with is going to affect your writing. I think it did the same for both of them. Live through this is a fucking monster. She never got anywhere near again and Kurt wouldn’t have either.
That said I think they were both just very dysfunctional, attractive charismatic young adults with a knack for a lyric and a melody and great vocals. That’s literally all you need to make the big time and they probably fed off each other. But it had to end, and end it did.
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u/Thehappypine1 Apr 25 '26
I don’t agree that bleach is an inferior album from a songwriting standpoint. It’s just not a pop album. I’ve met plenty of musicians and punks that haven’t listened to nevermind since they were 15 but will still fuck with bleach or earlier bsides. Their Jesus lizard split comes up often actually. Kurt was inspired by the Beatles AND flipper. While I’m sure Kurt and Courtney inspired one another I don’t think it’s that interesting. Kurt wanted to make it and pop music is how you do it.
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u/Busy-Peach5770 Apr 25 '26
Great write up! Yes, Courtney has a very particular lyrical style - the juxtaposition of femininity and darkness - and I 100% see her influence on Kurt's lyrics.
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u/Canino713 Apr 29 '26
Such long-winded hogwash. You could have stopped after the opening line because everything that followed was equally absurd.
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u/EffectiveMastodon551 Apr 30 '26
I disagree with many things in your post, like the song about Frances Farmer, what makes you think Kurt couldn’t have written about her? He read her biography and was fascinated by her story for a long time, he even thought that one of the people involved in her case (A judge, if I recall) was a distant relative of him and he was trying to clear that up before his death.
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u/Janjo99 Jun 21 '26
Not to take away from Kurt but I’ve always thought the lyrics “she’ll come back as fire to burn all the liars; leave a blanket of ash on the ground” sounds like lines straight out of Courtney’s poetry book.
If anyone is familiar with Hole’s work, then you’ll know what I’m talking about. Those lines have that “Shakespearean” epic flare Courtney is famous for cooking up. If Kurt wrote them, then I can definitely see Courtney’s literary influence and style rubbing off on him.
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u/TelephoneShoes Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
Doesn’t the majority of In Utero predate Kurt & Courtney dating and getting married?
In spite of Kurt’s statements about joining Hole, he went out of his way to keep Nirvana songs to Nirvana (even bitching at management to not encourage Courtney to take Pennyroyal Tea). You Know You’re Right was another contentious one, along with the back and forth over them covering Where Did You Sleep Last Night. Rape me was being played live quite a bit before Courtney came on the scene.
I’d also say Nevermind’s songs are worlds ahead of the writing on In Utero. They’re more rehearsed, more thought out…etc. pretty much everyone recognizes Kurt had massively stepped up his song writing & singing by the time Nevermind was around.
I think Courtney was responsible for Kurt not second guessing himself as much as he did with Nevermind (over the course of its development); but I’m not sure how much influence was had beyond that. Ignoring the sections that are clearly about their marriage (bridge of Rape me, Bridge of RFUS…etc)
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u/Wastewood_Rockers Apr 24 '26
Not trying to argue for or against this persons view point on Courtney’s influence, however:
A lot of the songs were written before Nevermind yes, but the lyrics constantly changed. It’s often said he wouldn’t even finalise them until the final take of the song. Even at the show at Rio in Jan of 93’ (just a month before they would record the album) he sang slightly different lyrics to HSB.
Another example is rape me. People always debate whether this song is about a littleral rape victim or if it was ment as a metaphor for the Vanity Fair article in 92’. The truth is it’s both. If you listen to the lyrics before this period it can be interpreted as purely an anti-rape song (see live at paramount version for example - there’s no bridge, instead there’s a guitar solo). Later for In Utero (after the article) he adds in extra lyrics in the bridge section which (in my opinion) can be pretty easily interpreted as referring to the hit piece the media ran did on him and Courtney ‘favourite inside source’ etc…
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u/TelephoneShoes Apr 24 '26
Yup, solid points. Appreciate you clarifying the points. My wording was all muddy and crap lol
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u/malcomhung Apr 24 '26
You might be thinking of a different album, but In Utero was his last album and many of the lyrics are about her.
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u/TelephoneShoes Apr 24 '26
No, I’m familiar. There’s lines about her in the lyrics. But that’s quite a bit different than her influencing the writing of the music itself. Lyrics changed all the way up until they’re recorded with Kurt so that’s not a big thing. But most of those songs date back to late 90-91. So Courtney wouldn’t have had much time to change the way Kurt wrote music. (Not exactly what OP is claiming, just being dramatic to get the point across)
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u/ndurr1111 Apr 24 '26
I think Courtney helped him say fuck you to the gatekeepers and step more deeply into writing and airing songs he had previously been too worried to create due to the risk of breaking the stupid rules that folks like Kim Gordon and the Bikini Kill girls were enforcing. And vice versa. …
Even in my middle school 2500 miles away, there were hardcore “sellout” and authenticity attitudes, with being underground and pure being ultra important. People would get kicked out of social groups if/when they embraced something outside the lines. I remember lots of kids who became big Pearl Jam fans were all of a sudden losers or poseurs or rejects.. silly. I guess it was really hard core among the artists on the front lines.
Dude, however much shit the naysayers talked after Nevermind came out, in their private moments Im sure they were truly bowled over by songs so good that the world changed a good bit. Exciting times!
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u/Apprehensive_Web4809 Apr 28 '26
It would have been interesting to see what a collaboration would have sounded like but they were too messed up
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u/PangolinPlenty5637 Apr 24 '26
What about the band Courtney Love (Lois Maffeo and Pat Maley)? Another northwest band. Did they influence Cobain's songwriting?
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Apr 24 '26
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u/Nirvana-ModTeam Apr 24 '26
Your post/comment was removed for breaking Rule 2 "Be Respectful
- Posts/Comments bashing Courtney Love or any other family member/friend will be removed. Please also be respectful to other users."
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u/blergzarp Apr 24 '26
You lost me at Exhibit A. “About a Girl” is a perfect song. Why do so many people believe that lyrics have to be literal and/or deep and meaningful to make a song great? If that’s your criteria you’d have to write off 95% of pop music and you would be left with only the most pretentious shit.