OOH, I’M ‘BOUT TO ACT A FOOL

[u/-FantasticFoxx-]

Twitter/X has recently been debating as to whether modern Africa could beat 1939 Germany in a war

…Found the hypothetical rather amusing

[u/Anoth_]

Who would win.

Neither they'd get bogged down to shit within months because logistics wouldn't follow.

[u/The_Moustache → u/Anoth_]

Mods ban this man he's being too credible

[u/-FantasticFoxx- → u/The_Moustache]

MR. ELECTRIC SEND HIM TO THE PRINCIPALS OFFICE AND HAVE HIM EXPELLED

[u/TOASTSEXUAL → u/-FantasticFoxx-]

Mods, bring out the busty tsundere challenger 2 to run this guys balls over

Mods just shoot the damn bastard

[u/SamtheCossack → u/TOASTSEXUAL]

Wait, I thought we were trying to punish him, not reward him?

[u/A_Mouse_In_Da_House → u/SamtheCossack]

Yes, but also can we get that busty tsundere challenger 2?

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/Anoth_]

Germany: outruns its own logistics for the 5th time in a week "Zis means I am gut at de var because schnell ja?"

[u/Gaaius → u/IlluminatedPickle]

You just have to reach the opponents capital and take over before the lack of logistics catches up to you

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/Gaaius]

Napoleon: "Works every ti- WHY ARE YOU ALL DYING?"

[u/RaulParson → u/Anoth_]

I honestly don't even get the supposed scenario here. Is it, like, "dump the entire populations and equipment stocks of both on the opposite sides of a huge arena and then have them go at it", or like "suddenly, a portal between two alt-Earths has appeared (so Europe still has its colonial holdings in Africa for example but they're 1939 African colonies - but Africa has the ability to just buy 2026 shit from the rest of 2026 Earth to replenish the stocks of weapons it can't make itself... but maybe Europe can buy them too?) and these places unified SOMEHOW despite the ideological differences and then declared war on each other" or... what? WHAT IS THE SCENARIO

There's not a "Jessie what the fuck are you talking about" option which invalidates this poll and anyone who genuinely says either of the presented choices is a big dumdum with powerscaler brainrot, possibly undiagnosed

[u/Bartweiss → u/RaulParson]

Political Compass Memes got a hold of this, and to my surprise the wildly angry and offensive takes quickly yielded to people going "What is this even asking? Define 'win', dammit. And 'war' for that matter."

The main consensus actually seemed pretty reasonable to me:

• Neither side has the tools to invade the other en masse.
• Africa wins the hell out of "let's hit each other a bit" by virtue of having any modern planes. If they just get teleported together, Europe is probably surrendering to "What the fuck just blew up Parliament? Martians? God?" unless somebody sends them the Terms and Conditions.
• Europe has way more men under arms than anyone today, but is going to have a hard time using them. And they lose badly on total population if things get disorganized.
• Once you look past the first week or so, everything turns incredibly stupid and reliant on where they're allowed to get more resources from.
• Neither side would want to do this, at least once they see the opposition, so you'd better declare it a battle to the death or something before we can even talk about it.

[u/DagnirDae → u/RaulParson]

I think it's "2026 Africa and 1939 Europe get transported to a world where they are alone (no colony for European countries) and fight it out"

1939 Europe gets obliterated in about 10 hours.

[u/Modo44 → u/Anoth_]

Not these days. Nigeria alone has all the oil they would need.

[u/Anoth_ → u/Modo44]

Having oil famously doesn't mean much if you don't have strategic assets to use it in.

African militaries lack any solid assets that would allow them to push the war any further than the mediteranean coast, and their militaries are too reliant on import and foreign industrial bases to keep any high intensity fight much longer than a month, and that's being generous.

However that doesn't mean the European armies would win because they'd be completely supressed around the mediteranean.

Realistically we'd see european islands occupied at best, and then a late korean war style standstill at hottest, more likely a cold war while the large industrial basis of Europe would rapidly modernize and the immense population pool of Africa would rapidly industrialise.

[u/astranamia]

The mightiest panzer quakes in fear upon the glorious sight of the Toyota

[u/Deep-Reputation-4055 → u/astranamia]

I mean if the guy in the back of the Toyota has a Milan than yeah the panzer should be fucking scared. 

[u/eeznura → u/Deep-Reputation-4055]

A Toyota with a Zeus on the back is going to rip a vast majority, if not all, of the 1939 tanks apart. A Milan is overkill

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/eeznura]

A single BMP-2 appears. Wins the war.

[u/Cultural_Blueberry70 → u/IlluminatedPickle]

There are also more of them in Africa than the number of Panzer II Germany had in 1939. And the BMPs probably wouldn't even need their missiles to win against them.

[u/Rivetmuncher → u/Deep-Reputation-4055]

A couple SPG-9s alone would be a more terrifying sight than any Tiger II battalion for the entirety of that war.

[u/femboyisbestboy → u/astranamia]

A yota with a .50 call or a 14.5 would rip through a panzer III.

[u/Flamoirs → u/astranamia]

Mighty panzer of 1939, look inside : mostly panzer 2 that have less armament and armor than most shitty technical 

[u/-FantasticFoxx- → u/astranamia]

There’s always a bigger fish.

[u/EHTL]

> 1939

> ME line jets

Someone can’t read…

[u/-FantasticFoxx- → u/EHTL]

>Me 262 harnessing mythical Agarthan powers manages to down the vile SU-30

>262 crashes due to engine failure

[u/SamtheCossack → u/-FantasticFoxx-]

1939 Me 262 clearly has magical time travel abilities anyway, so it might manage to over perform

[u/Deadluss → u/-FantasticFoxx-]

bUt cAN mE 262 dO a CoBrA???

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/Deadluss]

It can certainly stallbrah.

[u/Where_is_Killzone_5 → u/EHTL]

It's twitter, the blokes are too busy circlejerking with their Wehrmacht edits or playing WarThunder to even bother reading actual history.

[u/Modo44 → u/EHTL]

Yeah, I think the best they could have done, if people were competent at their jobs instead of busy politicking, was 1941. And that is being generous. And then you have a Me-262 type thingie vs (at the oldest) supersonic jets equipped with radar, or just death by Shilka.

[u/choking_hazard31]

This mother fuck did not just refer to the ME-163 as advanced.

[u/SamtheCossack → u/choking_hazard31]

It was one of the most advanced and sophisticated Nazi killing devices used during the war. It was highly effective at it too.

[u/Left1Brain → u/SamtheCossack]

Fucking horrible way to go too, literally melted its test pilots in a slow agonizing way and the Nazi’s just went: “Yup! Bring that bitch into service!”

[u/sblahful → u/Left1Brain]

Famously good decision makers and ethicists the Nazis were

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/Left1Brain]

Strap the children in, watch them go!

[u/JoeNemoDoe → u/SamtheCossack]

Heh

[u/SyrusDrake → u/choking_hazard31]

Hey, it had a whole four thrust settings and the propellant didn't melt the pilots most of the time.

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/SyrusDrake]

60% of the time, every time.

[u/edgygothteen69]

Africa has 5th Gen fighters... And tanks with frontal armor that nothing in 1939 Europe can pierce. And like, drones and shi

[u/SamtheCossack → u/edgygothteen69]

And 1.5 Billion people.

It is hard as fuck to win a war against 1.5 billion people. In fact, nobody has actually done it. Ever. (Germany and Japan were fighting almost that number, but famously lost)

[u/Sheeip → u/SamtheCossack]

Based Italy ignorer.

[u/SamtheCossack → u/Sheeip]

Nah, Italy actually won.

By changing teams, but still.

[u/TyrialFrost → u/SamtheCossack]

perfidious Italy

[u/Vineyard_ → u/Sheeip]

Who?

[u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark → u/Sheeip]

Italy did an honestly phenomenal job considering the frankly impossible strategic situation, especially the navy.

It's just not a fight anyone in their shoes could have realistically won;

With Nazi Germany, there's quite a few major blunders and a lot of internal political interference that made a very-nearly-impossible situation into actually impossible.

Italy, on the other hand, was pretty damn competent for most of the war.  Part of that was the fact that they weren't super invested in Germany's ambitions, and other than Mussolini and his direct cronies, they weren't really zealots who would sacrifice strategic goals for political games. In other words, not having as much SS-style internal Inquisiting(TM) actively sabotaging the war effort certainly helped.

A lot of people rightfully lambast wehraboos/heeraboos when they use the Just Following Orders defense, but for Italy it's a fairly accurate description. They didn't really give a shit about Germany or Japan's world domination plans, they were just fighting for their country after their nominal ally dragged it into some bullshit.

That bullshit didn't end with the Armistice, either; the Germans were really not very nice afterwards, as one might expect. They didn't really care if you were staying neutral, joining the Allies, or in some cases even still fighting for the Axis, pretty much all the Italians got shafted.

There's a lot of reasons Mussolini getting the long drop short stop was a day to be celebrated.

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark]

Italy, on the other hand, was pretty damn competent for most of the war.

cough Greece cough

[u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark → u/IlluminatedPickle]

I said most lol

[u/AutumnRi → u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark]

eeeeh, while i’d agree about italy’s dogshit strategic position, their field performance was characterized by embarassment. The greek fiasco, operation compass, the taranto strike; while the average italian soldier was no coward or incompetent, their decision makers consistently showed themselves to be incapable of matching up to their opposition.

At least the germans got wins without relying on overwhelming numerical advantages sometimes.

[u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark → u/AutumnRi]

I see most of those as exceptions rather than the rule.

One other notable factor beyond their near-comical bad luck was the British having truly absurd codebreaking capabilities that could (especially in regards to the Italian Navy) intercept, decode, read, and begin to act on orders before the intended recipient even gets them. Sometimes including orders from one ship in a squadron to another.

With that kind of ludicrous intelligence disadvantage, it's not really a surprise that the Italians got pounded. It doesn't really matter how good your battle plans are when the enemy can read them before your own troops do.

This wasn't because of any particular shortcoming of Italian encryption techniques, either, the British were just that good.

[u/FlthyCasualSoldier → u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark]

"Italy did an honestly phenomenal job"

Where exactly? In the Balkans campaign? In Egypt? Please show me a major military campaign against a peer enemy in which Italy succeeded.

"They didn't really give a shit about Germany or Japan's world domination plans, they were just fighting for their country after their nominal ally dragged it into some bullshit."

So where and when exactly did they "fight for their" country? What business had Italy in Greece, Albania or north/east Africa?

your comment is nothing but straight up copium coupled with a big potion of revisionism.

You could also mention that the reason the Africa corps was founded is because Italy was losing big in Africa and requested support. And Italy also needed help from the Wehrmacht in Greece. So in fact Italy did drag german forces into their own italian battles.

[u/sblahful → u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark]

they were just fighting for their country after their nominal ally dragged it into some bullshit.

How were they dragged in? IIRC Mussolini dogpiled on France only once it looked like victory was assured, simply to get a share of the spoils.

[u/FlthyCasualSoldier → u/sblahful]

they were not dragged in. It's straight up wrong. Fascist Italy wanted to have its own little empire in eastern europe and Africa. You just can't label this as "just fighting for their country".

[u/Sheeip → u/Wolffe_In_The_Dark]

I am very aware of Italian military action and internal political dispositions preceding and during world war 2. I was simply doing a little trolling and memeing my lad.

Guy’s too credible get em outta here.

[u/SgtFinnish → u/SamtheCossack]

Tell that to the sparrows who beat Mao's China.

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/SgtFinnish]

I think it was the locusts who won that one actually.

[u/JimBridger_ → u/SgtFinnish]

Don’t forget about the anti imperialist Emu’s

[u/HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE → u/SamtheCossack]

Citing numbers ain't shit if you can't feed, transport and arm all these people.

What matters are the people you can actually bring to the front line, and on that point I'm not sure which side would fare better (in 1939, logistics weren't absolutely stellar in Europe ; that changed by 43-44 though).

[u/Bartweiss → u/HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE]

The peak army sizes of even single combatants in WW2 rival the active counts of the entire world today, so I think "modern Africa has 3-4x the population of 1930s Europe" is probably a bit overrated. (Although reserve counts pump the modern rates way up, and while they're not all fighting-fit, a lot of them have seen more training than active-duty guys in WW2.)

That said, every single thing I look up for this question makes me go "holy shit they were so unprepared in 1939". In 1944, Europe was full of recognizably-modern tanks fighting huge mechanized battles. In 1939, the tanks wouldn't reliably survive modern machine guns. 1939 Europe is probably more ready to deploy a ton of their population than a modern army, but I don't think they're ready arm them against even self-equipped irregulars of today.

[u/The_Moustache → u/edgygothteen69]

Egypt domestically produces export Abrams tanks lol

[u/poordecisionmaker2 → u/edgygothteen69]

Even 5 guys in a toyota with rpgs can do pretty well against crusader tanks and panzers. To say nothing of actual atgms

[u/Schwarz_Furumoto → u/poordecisionmaker2]

Tbh, 5 guys on a Hillux with RPGs have beaten many a T-72 before

[u/draft_final_final → u/poordecisionmaker2]

The Tuaregs and their 3000 Black Toyota Tundras alone would fuck up the Afrika Korps.

[u/HereIGoAgain_1x10 → u/poordecisionmaker2]

People don't know how vulnerable the initial Nazi tank thrusts were during their push through the Ardennes. There was a huge traffic jam and a counter by French tanks or air force could've slowed and halted the entire Blitzkrieg and force a retreat or a change in how aggressive the pushes were. It was an untested tactic against a similar sized opponent.

So ya if you put a few dozen RPGs in that forest much less just a single fighter jet doing a couple strafing runs on a highway of vehicles and ya it'd be a little different lol

[u/Pinky_Boy → u/poordecisionmaker2]

a .50 bmg will shred through those tanks lmao

a dshk or nsv will do it even easier

[u/MeinKampfySeat → u/Pinky_Boy]

A .50 goes through about 20mm of RHA, best case. That’s not going to shred a crusader or any panzer other than the 1.

[u/Pinky_Boy → u/MeinKampfySeat]

The side armor of a crusader is 20mm. And early panzer have something similiar armor

And depending on the variant, a .50 might have more pen loke the m2hb

[u/MeinKampfySeat → u/Pinky_Boy]

So it might pen at a close to 90 degree angle side on. Not what I’d call shredding.

[u/Pinky_Boy → u/MeinKampfySeat]

Turning them into a swiss cheese from 100m broadside is still shredding no?

[u/Modo44 → u/poordecisionmaker2]

Or anti-materiel-rifles at ranges no early WWII tank weapon could hope to match.

[u/Skirfir → u/Modo44]

I couldn't find any data for the NTW-20 calibres so I will go with the data of the .50 bmg instead. And that has a maximum range of about 6200m. That is at a 45° angle which is entirely unrealistic. But between 600 and 700m it has lost half of its energy already. The L-11 76.2 mm gun used by the KV1 (and later the t34) has a maximum range of about 5600m but as opposed to the rifle round the tank can fire high explosive rounds at the guy with the anti materiel rifle so it is effektive at any range where the projectile still detonates. So in short even a modern anti materiel rifle couldn't hope to penetrate a 1939 tank from outside its range. Which might have to do with the fact that a lot of the calibres used in those rifles are from around that time or even earlier and they proved insufficient against tanks even then or shortly after.

[u/ffbyr49 → u/poordecisionmaker2]

70 ton fat fuck with a transmission made of glass vs fpv drone swarm

[u/obog → u/edgygothteen69]

From what I can find theres like... 2 or so 5th gen fighters in africa. But theres plenty of 4th gen fighters and those will crush anything from WW2 more or less just as effectively

[u/Modo44 → u/obog]

Honestly, any jet still flying is many generations beyond even the craziest prototype WWII aircraft. I bet someone would have fun with their Mig-21.

[u/edgygothteen69 → u/obog]

The two su-57s will come in handy in case 1939 Europe somehow gets ahold of a modern theater GBAD

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/obog]

If it can drop a JDAM, the WW2 army is going to have a bad time.

"Sir, every time more than 3 of us gather together, we explode. What is happening?"

[u/MrCockingFinally → u/edgygothteen69]

Africa has 5th Gen fighters

No African country has taken delivery of 5th gen fighters.

Even once Algeria takes delivery of Su-57so that's a 5th gen fighters from wish.

But you're missing the most important thing, that is sustainability. Africa doesn't make its own missiles, doesn't make its own jets, doesn't make its own tanks. They have very limited capability to manufacture new weapons without inputs from abroad.

African militaries will run away with the conflict for a short time mega they run out of spare parts and missiles, then they get slaughtered.

[u/GripAficionado → u/MrCockingFinally]

No African country has taken delivery of 5th gen fighters.

I'm pretty sure there's footage of Su-57s already being in Algeria.

then they get slaughtered.

I sort of disagree with that notion though, Toyotas and RPGs alone would be very dangerous to early WW2 tanks. They have better small arms and much more manpower. They even have some limited domestic production of certain vehicles. Africa might even have some domestic production of drones.

I don't think either could win, it would be a stalemate.

[u/DepartureNatural9340 → u/edgygothteen69]

Don't forget the toyota

[u/Alex_Duos → u/edgygothteen69]

Wait hold up, Algeria actually got those things?? When the hell did that happen?

[u/sblahful → u/Alex_Duos]

Watch the Perun episode on Algeria/Morocco

[u/VengineerGER → u/edgygothteen69]

The problem is they don’t really have the long range strike capability nor the logistical support for a prolonged war. Not to mention a lot of African militaries are corrupt, incompetent or both. This isn’t as easy of a dub as you‘d think.

Plus the scenario isn’t just Germany but all of Europe this includes stuff like the Royal Navy and the Red Army. It’s not going to be a slam dunk for either side.

[u/Youutternincompoop → u/VengineerGER]

the best African militaries are all on the north coast and could probably handle Europe by themselves, easy rapid control of the mediterannean choke points and missiles/bombs to wipe out the navies in the mediterannean means they have easy access to the entire European mediterannean coastline to carry out an invasion.

the biggest issue for Africa would be getting Morocco and Algeria to not attack each other first lol

[u/JimBridger_ → u/edgygothteen69]

Is the Su-57 reaaaallllllyyyy 5th gen tho?

[u/FreeAdministration4]

I want to point out it’s not even vehicles it’s personal kit. Sure most African armies don’t have as good distribution of rifle-proof body armor as the US today, but still most infantrymen in most of these countries have an assault rifle and load-bearing vest, better than 1939 European web gear and bolt action rifles. Also kevlar helmets are relatively common and way more protective than steel.

[u/SamtheCossack → u/FreeAdministration4]

Not to mention very large quantities of platoon level machine guns, plenty of RPGs and explosive weapons, and a substantial amount of infantry mortars.

Given almost all 1939 European military forces had bolt action rifles and that is about it, that is a terrifying discrepancy in firepower.

[u/HereIGoAgain_1x10 → u/SamtheCossack]

RPGs would be the biggest difference imo, the entire purpose of German tanks was smashing through infantry lines and ones half get taken out by RPGs, not to mention support vehicles getting lit up as well, the Blitzkrieg stops being Blitzkrieg.... I think we basically saw this play out when Russia first invaded Ukraine and had no idea what to do once they didn't just sprint in and take everything. Anytime Germany got bogged down and had to fight a prolonged battle they lost.

[u/IlluminatedPickle → u/HereIGoAgain_1x10]

Shit a ZSU-23 emplacement would fucking ruin a divebombers day.

[u/InsertEvilLaugh → u/HereIGoAgain_1x10]

Seeing columns of Russian tanks burning from ambushes by Javelins, RPG's and NLAWs was a hell of a sight.

[u/FreeAdministration4 → u/SamtheCossack]

WWII era most European armies had machine guns at the squad level and light mortars, but longer range man carried explosive weapons were less common in 1939 than in 2026 unless you count rifle grenades they were pretty common but obviously don’t have as much range or boom as an RPG.

[u/SamtheCossack → u/FreeAdministration4]

WWII era, yes. As in the end of the war. 1939, not so much. Very beginning of the war, machine guns were pretty damn rare in most European militaries, at least dispersed among the infantry. They tended to exist mostly in separate weapons companies. Anti-Tank rifles were still pretty common in 1939 too, which is mostly useless in this scenario.

[u/GripAficionado → u/SamtheCossack]

Very beginning of the war, machine guns were pretty damn rare in most European militaries

No? Machine guns became common already during WW1, they weren't rare at the beginning, they just didn't have enough of them. WW2 militaries just didn't have enough of their equipment. Not to mention how it varied greatly from country to country. The MG 34 was pretty darn good, but they didn't have that many of them in 39.

[u/NCD_Lardum_AS → u/FreeAdministration4]

The communication and ISR gap by itself makes this an incredibly hard fight for Europe.

[u/MasqueradeofAstroya → u/NCD_Lardum_AS]

Would they even have satalite capability?

[u/MrCabbuge → u/MasqueradeofAstroya]

Semi-modern encryption radios are enough, imo

[u/SiBloGaming → u/MrCabbuge]

Also, being able to crack any encryption used by europe, and being able to just deny radio bands.

[u/The_Shittiest_Meme → u/SiBloGaming]

Enigma could be brute forced in seconds by a Cellphone.

[u/SiBloGaming → u/The_Shittiest_Meme]

Yeah, thats basically what I was referring to. Basically, being able to listen to any encrypted communication in real time

[u/NCD_Lardum_AS → u/MasqueradeofAstroya]

I feel it'd be against the spirit of the question to deprive them of the tools they use. So no satellite intelligence but phones and GPS still work.

[u/Youutternincompoop → u/MasqueradeofAstroya]

69 satellites launched by African countries so yes.

[u/Musicmaker1984]

People forget that a humble DShK can penetrate the Panzer 1, 2, most of the light transports and most half tracks during WW2. God forbid they put them on hundreds of Toyotas.

[u/Lolibotes → u/Musicmaker1984]

3000 Toyotas could probably be short work of the entire European standing army in 1939

[u/Bismarck40 → u/Lolibotes]

Abdullah watching the Toyota next to him explode after getting shot by a Pak 38 from a kilometer away:

[u/MasqueradeofAstroya → u/Bismarck40]

The hilux would tank it and keep going

[u/Youutternincompoop → u/Bismarck40]

skill issue by the Toyota driver in that case, laying a Pak 38 on a target that fast at such a long distance would be a fucking nightmare.

[u/ltobo123]

Fuck me, hiluxes with an SPG would work most European elements of the time.

[u/SamtheCossack → u/ltobo123]

They have a shitload of Helicopters too. Only a few modern ones, but an Mi-8 with a fuckload of guns on the Pylons is going to shred entire battalions. And they have a LOT of Mi-8s.

[u/smaug13 → u/SamtheCossack]

I suspect they don't have much in the way of conventional bombers but I wonder how much modern transport planes with bombs shoved out of the back, even if those bombs are just barrel bombs, would hold up survivability wise, if you send out a fleet of fighters along to protect them from interceps. I know that the later US bombers could just fly high up enough that zigzagging is enough to render anti-air artillery harmless, would the same hold for modern transport planes? To do at the minimum WW2 style bombing against industry, even if it is going to have WW2 style limited effectiveness, if conventional modern bombing isn't available (though they will have some multipurpose fighters that can do some of that, probably limited capacity though?)

[u/SamtheCossack → u/smaug13]

Il-76s have a cruising speed higher than a Bf-109s max speed, and can operate a fair bit above its service ceiling as well.

It would not make it safe from AA though.

On the other hand, aircraft like the Su-25 and Mig-23 can carry far more payload than WWII heavy bombers could, so they are probably fine in the strike department.

[u/JakobtheRich → u/SamtheCossack]

Il-76 would be relatively quite safe from AA, because it flies so high that only specialized heavy AA can reach it, and much faster than anything European AA operators are trained to target. You could theoretically shoot one down with like a 12.8 cm, but you'd have to get pretty lucky. 

[u/DiegesisThesis → u/SamtheCossack]

3000 Blackhawks of Allah

[u/Spudtron98 → u/ltobo123]

Some blokes with RPGs would do the trick.

[u/AmazingSpacePelican]

The funniest bit is that this is 1939 Europe. So they don't even have the advantage of all the tech they developed over the war, significant parts are still operating with bare minimum militaries, and they're all still broke from WW1.

The sub-saharan nations wouldn't even need to contribute.

[u/Blahaj_IK]

I think I actually sobbed in desperation when they brought up the komet military euthanasia pod. 262 is also not a valid pick either but it's less funny

Yao Ming cried looking at the state of military discourse. My nazis can't be this stupid. I mean they can but come ON

[u/Modo44]

From the people who brought you "A Tiger could easily take an Abrams".

[u/Youutternincompoop → u/Modo44]

now it's a PZII could easily take an Abrams I guess

[u/luizbiel]

Personally I'm more curious about how the fuck either side would manage their ongoing internal conflicts while also dealing with each other

[u/SullyRob → u/luizbiel]

My assumption in this scenario is we waved some magic wand that freezes all that.

[u/Kranken_DeHogge]

huge technological mismatch when Europeans colonized Africa long ago

but modern Africa wins this fight 10 times out of 10. Not even considering various small but mostly modern jet air forces.

you'd have Sahara/Sahel militias zipping about in Toyotas absolutely shredding 1940s era ground forces as their tanks and vehicles got stuck in the desert. Not to mention whatever fuckshit African forces can pull off fighting in jungles.

All Africa has to do is fight on their home turf and they win.

[u/Stoned_D0G → u/Kranken_DeHogge]

Don't think anyone would actually need to fight in the jungles. Malaria and tropics will make any 1939 army turn back with no shots fired.

[u/Dahak17 → u/Stoned_D0G]

The North African nations generally have at least limited antishipping air squadrons. They wouldn’t even get to the malaria

[u/steampunk691 → u/Dahak17]

Requiring them to land on the continent would make the fight even more lopsided. You won’t need dedicated anti-shipping assets to take on a 1939 landing force. A pair of Fishbeds diving in at 400 knots with bombs and rockets would be virtually untouchable to AA of that era

[u/waiver45 → u/Dahak17]

You could get malaria in Italy back in the day.

[u/Musicmaker1984 → u/Kranken_DeHogge]

This isn't even 1940s. This is 1939 where most are still using interwar vehicles

[u/Sunchine22 → u/Kranken_DeHogge]

Nevermind the jet, any dumbass with an RPG-7 could take out any tank the 1939 euros could throw at it.

[u/Youutternincompoop → u/Kranken_DeHogge]

forget home turf, Algeria by itself could easily invade across the Med with their quite potent Amphibious landing fleet.

[u/siamesekiwi]

Fuck. can you imagine the look on Hans, Giuseppe, Nigel, Ivan, Stanisław, Olav,Giorgos, and others's faces when they find out about drones? and then about FPV drones?

Like, most other developments are a matter of degree, (faster planes, bigger bombs, more accurate projectiles etc.), but a small flying machine that can go "fuck this guy in particular" just hits different. (pun fully intended)

[u/ltobo123 → u/siamesekiwi]

Oddly, if they're a WW1 vet I think they'd be less impressed. "Yeah that sounds about right, happened to my buddy with howitzer"

[u/siamesekiwi → u/ltobo123]

True, at least WW1 vets would have had the “oh god what the fuck is this new bullshit?” Experience from the First World War. Considering they were throwing plenty of new bullshit at each other.

[u/DurfGibbles → u/siamesekiwi]

Unknown technology

Schiesse

[u/MoodOutrageous6263]

“1st generation jets could be countered by people planes therefor jets from 80 years later can”

[u/-FantasticFoxx- → u/MoodOutrageous6263]

Great point, however, I will never not find it hilarious a Po-2 somehow managed to down a F-86A Sabre

[u/poplglop]

tbh Modern Egypt probs solos this fight, maybe throw in SA for good measure. Then the various other middle powers plus the insane population discrepancy to back it up makes this a no contest.

[u/frozandero → u/poplglop]

I mean I agree Egypt can solo it buy why do they also have to SA them? Isn't it a bit excessive?

[u/Modo44 → u/frozandero]

If it's a fair fight, you are doing it wrong.

[u/Dahak17 → u/poplglop]

Egypt would get the world record for most battleships and carriers sunk in war. Maybe even doing better than the Second World War in general

[u/Frech_Toast_King → u/Dahak17]

nah bro i wanna see the stats for the attack helicopters just smoking lines after lines of convoys, making the smoke from desert storm look like morning fog

[u/Dahak17 → u/Frech_Toast_King]

Just imagine the attack on Taranto except its done by modern aircraft and there’s a visiting Royal Navy/french/german task force stationed there to help the Italians. You’d burn off a million tons of ship fuel alone

[u/Stormruler387 → u/poplglop]

HAAANK DON'T ABBREVIATE SOUTH AFRICA

[u/ElectroNikkel]

Africa steamrolls the first 2 weeks.

After that...

[u/Snowflakish → u/ElectroNikkel]

Everything modern is tied up in globalism now.

Like what, does africa get to keep GPS etc?

[u/Thewaltham → u/Snowflakish]

Even without GPS. The advancement in weapons technology was absolutely insane through the second world war and into the postwar. Even if they were reduced to a worst case roughly 60s-70s technological base relying only on domestic production that would still give a massive edge.

This'd basically end in a stalemate where this coalition of African countries wouldn't be able to make much headway on an offensive (editing note, that would mostly be due to logistics), but the 1939 Europeans would get their shit slapped by missiles and drones they would have no hope of detecting or countering if they even started looking at the continent funny.

[u/SamtheCossack → u/Thewaltham]

I am not really sure they would stall out all that much if they were actually working together. Spain and Italy are pretty achievable launching from Africa, and Egypt and Algeria working together have more than enough firepower to lock down the Med.

It might be cheating to have access to all the Liberian Flagged merchant vessels, but it you do, you have more logistics than you know what to do with. And you have damn near infinite amounts of Infantry, because it the population disparity is about 4 to 1.

[u/Thewaltham → u/SamtheCossack]

If everything goes smoothly absolutely, but this is Africa. Gross generalisation but I expect things to get a bit fucky with all those countries completely unused to extending force at scale trying to extend enough of it to cut deep into Europe while under fire. The weaponry being shot at them would be very basic by comparison, but there would still be a lot of it.

Remember, it's all well and good having that amount of infantry but you have to feed and supply them still. Supporting a large expeditionary force is tricky in peacetime, let alone when there's an enemy that has something to say about it. I definitely think they could stop themselves being invaded, but trying to actually push into Europe would be a bit too much.

[u/Deadluss → u/Snowflakish]

GPS guided V1 and V2 rockets let's goooooooooooooooooooooooo

[u/Player420154 → u/ElectroNikkel]

They continue steamrolling because they aren't idiot and can produce at least at 1980 quality level of weapons which is largely enough to crush 1939 Europe. which by the way has no way to invade Africa. while Africa can build its invasion force in peace. Once the oil field are sized, the marvellous European logistic will mostly neigh.

[u/PWiz30]

2026 Africa doesn't just have modern jets. They would also have Toyota Hilux technical superiority.

[u/RaidriConchobair]

Some people just love to forget the giant steps in technology since 1939, even 1939 vs 1945 technology would be very one sided for 45

[u/PhotographVivid]

Have none of you learned anything from the last 2 millennium, read the Art of war? Logistics win wars It doesnt matter, if you have a better strategy or more powerfull weapons, if your army isn't supplied with ammo and food, you lose.

[u/RedditNerd_69 → u/PhotographVivid]

They have food in Africa?

[u/ManicParroT]

Why did I write a whole stupid story about this when I could have been doing something useful.

Oh well here goes. Mods please remove if not allowed:

1/x

After both sides get over their initial shock and confusion, Africa does massive damage in the first few months as their munitions pulverise key targets and rack up some of the most lopsided kill ratios since the colonisation of Africa - a grim irony. Egyptian F16s and Algerian Su-34s fight alongside each other, tearing through flights of Spitfires and Messerschmits. Early on the directive goes out to conserve missiles and use cannons as a first option, which slows the killing but leads to some close calls and at least one fatal accident, as fast closing aircraft have to avoid crashing into their much slower propeller driven targets.

The North African navies clear the Mediterranean of significant opposition in a matter of days, with most of the Italian fleet being sunk at harbour. Moroccan Parachute Brigades and Marines carry out an air and seaborne assault on Gibraltar, which falls after 6 hours of intense night time fighting. The Royal Navy steams south with all haste when the reports come in, but begin taking incredibly accurate fire from beyond the horizon as antiship missiles from the Mohammed VI and Exocets launched by Moroccan F16s slam into them. HMS Hood and Renown are severely damaged and forced to retire. The missiles don’t always penetrate the heavy armor plating on the battle cruisers, but multiple hits to the bridge and superstructure render them combat ineffective. 

Then two Algerian Kilo-class submarines launch their torpedoes from behind the fleet, and half a dozen ships are sinking in a matter of minutes. The rest of the Royal Navy in the Atlantic retires to Scapa Flow to refit and await further instructions.

The killing spree cannot last, however, and some of the more far sighted African leaders are already beginning to husband key assets and supplies, while looking for indigenous alternatives to supplement the technology that must run out. They will have to fall back on refurbishing their Cold War stuff and cobble together hi-low tech solutions.

The Europeans are more self-sufficient for food and industrial production but their oil refineries and key factories are far more vulnerable than the African equivalents, and it will take decades for them to catch up technologically...

[u/ManicParroT → u/ManicParroT]

2/x

Germany and Russia build on their pre-war cooperation to fast track production of tanks and artillery. Armoured German divisions which were about to assault into Poland are redirected towards France. In a feat of Teutonic efficiency a million men, 2000 tanks and 4000 guns are shipped west, and travel - peacefully this time - through France where they team up with the French military and begin moving south towards Spain, where the enemy is threatening to envelop Madrid. A combined German/Polish/French/British army named Army Group Siegfried  is formed north of the Pyrenees, readying itself to meet the enemy.

 Surprisingly, a fully fledged Soviet army appears east of Poland, and indicate themselves ready to join the struggle but logistical constraints - chiefly different rail gauges - mean they can’t join their brethren just yet.

Group Siegfried moves swiftly towards the Pyrenees, where they reach their rail heads and begin to disembark. The closed off tunnels - sealed by the Francoist regime - mean they must proceed by road, and a major traffic jam begins to form. French Corporals swap chocolates and cigarettes with Wehrmacht Gefreiters and Unteroffiziers, while Polish Dragoons talk about horses with British lieutenants. 

Then a dozen F16s and Su-57s scream overhead. JDAMs and Drill anti-tank cluster munitions rain from the sky. Over the next few hours the flower of the combined army’s mechanised divisions is destroyed. The traffic jam of vehicles turns into a fiery convoy of death. Many troopers flee their vehicles. The more disciplined or less imaginative stay with their tanks, but even near misses turn Char Bs and Panzer IIs into heaps of flaming scrap metal. Cluster bombs evaporate entire columns of trucks and logistical supplies, and cannon fire shreds tanks, half-tracks and columns of infantry. Terrified and injured, men flee the roads, which have turned into a charnel house. Night falls, but it brings no relief. Mysterious aircraft with spinning blades on top - Egyptian Apaches and Algerian Mi-28s - take advantage of the cover of dark to close in, and their cannons find their targets with deadly precision.

At 3 months Africa’s armies hold Spain and Portugal and are pushing through France. Sardinia and Crete have been taken in coup de mains led by Rwandan special forces supported by Egyptian naval and air assets. A decision is taken not to land in Italy - despite hard lobbying by the Ethiopian and Eritrean delegations - due to the mountainous nature and lessons of WW2 on the difficulties of fighting through that country. Every inch of the Mediterranean is covered by the North African navies.

(I have another 3 or 4 posts in this vein but I don't want to get kicked off here, happy to repost as a self post or elsewhere if that's better)

[u/SamtheCossack]

Given both of those are continents, not nations, are we making the assumption they are putting aside their internal differences or not?

Because neither 1939 Europe nor 2026 Africa work together worth a damn.

If we DO assume they are working together reasonably well, then yeah, Africa smashes them without a second glance. Hell, if Africa actually worked together, they could probably smash 2026 Europe nearly as easily.

[u/ratione_materiae → u/SamtheCossack]

Was there some sort of international disagreement in 1939 Europe?

[u/SamtheCossack → u/ratione_materiae]

There were a few heated political discussions among friends.

[u/Nasa_OK → u/ratione_materiae]

As a German, I would not know, my grandparents and everyone else was on vacation during that period

[u/Humble_Flamingo4239 → u/SamtheCossack]

Modern Africa could smash modern Europe easily? What is happening in this sub bro

[u/SamtheCossack → u/Humble_Flamingo4239]

Did you miss the incredibly important qualifier that is absolutely not met?

Or did someone unify Africa under a single competent government sometime in the last hour while I wasn’t looking?

[u/Bismarck40 → u/SamtheCossack]

It doesn't matter if they unify they won't be able to cross the med lmao. The French navy alone stomps any African navy.

[u/TyrialFrost]

~	1939 Europe	2026 Africa
Non-mechanised - personnel (M)	11.9	1.5
Mechanised - personnel (M)	2.1	0.4
Mechanised - armoured combat vehicles	30,000	8,000
Mechanised - domestic production	57%	5%
Naval - active personnel (M)	1.2	0.2
Naval - combat ships	2,500	500
Naval - domestic production	80%	20%
Air - active personnel (M)	0.6	0.2
Air - combat aircraft	15,000	1,200
Air - domestic production	93%	4%
Reserves (incl paramilitary) (M)	20	1.5
Available manpower (M)	200	550
Remaining population (M)	315.2	1,028
Munitions production (K tonnes/day)	2.7	0.06
Sustained expeditionary cargo (K tonnes/day)	75	5
Locomotive fleet (K)	100	3
Political stability	45%	50%
PPP GDP - $2026 (T)	$12	$12.5

[u/joko2008 → u/TyrialFrost]

Those are war economies on the 1939 side. Africa isn't mobilised for a grand war

[u/TyrialFrost → u/joko2008]

In 2026 Africa there are 17/54 states that could be considered mobilised due to War/Junta/Insurgencies. Obviously not mobilised for total war, yet neither was 1939 Europe.

[u/NCD_Lardum_AS → u/joko2008]

This is 1939 Europe not 1942. The ramp up hasn't truly happened yet.

[u/joko2008 → u/NCD_Lardum_AS]

Germany was ramping up for war since 1936. 1.5 million men invaded Poland and 3.5 france in 1940. That is a big deal and not something a civilian economy could just pull out of it's ass

[u/zekromNLR → u/TyrialFrost]

Re: Navy, how many torpedoes do the African navies have in total? Because a modern sub is going to be basically invisible to what passes for ASW in 1939, and you can probably take out anything afloat in 1939 with one, maybe at most two modern heavyweight torpedoes.

[u/TyrialFrost → u/zekromNLR]

17 submarines, from Egypt, Algeria, South Africa.

Type 209: 7x (8+6) = 98 torpedoes

Kilo(P877):  2x (6+12) = 36 torpedos

i-Kilo(P636): 4x (6+12) = 72 torpedos

u-Romeo(T033): 4x (8+6) = 56 torpedoes

Total: 262

Estimated reserve: 395

It's possible that none of the Romeo's are seaworthy and the torpedoes are not interchangeable. The rest of the fleet is probably 1/3 in deep maintenance, which would likely just be canibalised to keep the rest active.

[u/zekromNLR → u/TyrialFrost]

So counting out the Romeos and assuming 2/3 combat capable for the others, we have about 140 torpedoes deployed at once, with probably two full reloads and a partial one available on shore, assuming the reserves are distributed in the same way as the deployed ones.

Not counting torpedo boats, small escorts, transports etc, but counting submarines, Royal Navy plus French navy plus Kriegsmarine ships in European waters in 1939 was 285. Minor European powers will add some more, but not enough to fully tip the balance.

South Africa's subs will also have to travel a long way to get into the theater, SA to Gibraltar is already pretty much half of the Type 209's 11000 nmi surfaced range (at 10 knots)

[u/iskandar- → u/TyrialFrost]

I love how this is just raw numbers and shows absolutely none of the qualitative and industrial advantages a modern African military would have. Like could you imagine the absolute field day a single Hind or Apache helicopter would have when it comes across a mechanised divisions of 1940s tanks? The biggest question would be what on the ground would even be worth a rocket or missile vs just eviscerating them with the chain gun.

Edit holy fuck I forgot about south Africa... south, while it doesn’t current have nukes, still has the capability and infrastructure to make nukes. Is this a fucking joke?

[u/irgendeineriwo → u/TyrialFrost]

Europe has more ships than Africa has SSMs (which they can't build domestically)

[u/bobbymoonshine → u/TyrialFrost]

Counterpoint: Africa has access to oil

[u/Anderopolis → u/bobbymoonshine]

As does europe in russia and romania. 

[u/Slobberinho → u/Anderopolis]

And Norway.

[u/TyrialFrost → u/bobbymoonshine]

~	1939 Europe	2026 Africa
Oil production (M barrels/day)	0.9	9.5

This does beg the queston of how quickly the 2026 Africa production would fall if they lost access to external expertise and equipment. If it was similar to Venezuela, it would be roughly -16%/year. Europe itself would face severe rationing with a 2M+ barrels/day shortfall until European oil fields are found and developed. There is also the issue that 3M barrels/day are on African front line in North Africa.

Worse then all this though is the refining situation. Africa would be in shortfall for a lot of fuel types.

[u/jimbo80008 → u/TyrialFrost]

Does this account for Baku? Depending on the definition Europe, Azerbaijan just barely gets counted as European

[u/Whirlpoolcircle56]

Some dudes in flip flops with Iglas could easily take out 100 WW2 fighters in a day.

[u/dox2EwJn6iZh → u/Whirlpoolcircle56]

And the next 100? How about the next 1000? Where are Iglas manufacturered in Africa?

[u/oretah_ → u/dox2EwJn6iZh]

You forget that South Africa has a pretty large (even if it's shrinking) domestic military industry. They could easily CTRL+C CTRL+V their factories into other countries. They don't even have to make their most advanced tech, the stuff they made in the 90s is already leaps and bounds ahead of anything available in 1940s Europe.

Honestly, Egypt, South Africa, Algeria and Morocco for good measure, could tagteam their way from Portugal to the Urals very quickly, and everyone else just becomes occupation forces in conquered territory

[u/Ok-Reindeer-5875 → u/oretah_]

Nonono, you dont understand, Europe is allowed to expand their industry during the war but Africa is not allowed to

[u/dox2EwJn6iZh → u/Ok-Reindeer-5875]

They're certainly allowed to but with what can be built nose to tail in Africa, without imports, it hardly moves the needle

[u/MigratingCocofruit]

I think we can apply Orkhams razor here: Every problem that can be solved with MOAR DAKKA will be solved with MOAR DAKKA

[u/OneTinyKittey]

All the modern military equipment in Africa doesn't even have enough munitions to destroy even 10 percent of Europe's world War 2 armies. People don't realize how small modern armies are and moreso how much fewer pieces of equipment and munitions modern nations have. What are 200 4th generation fighters going to do against literally 100,000 prop planes and bombers.

[u/Zalapadopa → u/OneTinyKittey]

Those 200 jet fighters are going to be reduced to half that within a month or two due to constant use and lack of maintenance.

[u/FaudelCastro → u/OneTinyKittey]

You don't need a Sukhoi to shoot those down. Any igla man pads, shilka or even a technical with an MG would do the trick.

For the land side of things, an RPG 7 is a god tier weapon for the era.

[u/AlfredoThayerMahan → u/OneTinyKittey]

Bomb their factories into dust so they never get built.

Bomb their oil infrastructure so they never get in the air.

[u/VirtualFallacy]

The only issue would be somehow uniting both 1939 Europe and 2026 Africa to fight against each other

[u/-FantasticFoxx- → u/VirtualFallacy]

The ONLY?

[u/captainfactoid386]

Morocco has Ah-64s. Assuming they get munitions I think those alone could wipe out 1939 Europe

[u/StandardN02b]

1. They aren't arguing africa v/s germany. They are arguing africa v/s europe.

2. If you want to know how this plays out. Ask where the spare parts, fuel and ammo for the african army come from and you will know who wins.

[u/No-Jicama6863 → u/StandardN02b]

doesnt really matter when you can just attack them before they have any chance of attritional warfare, did we forget desert storm?

[u/Jordibato → u/StandardN02b]

Where does the european fuel comes from? The caucasus and romania aren't enough...

[u/loseniram]

Africa loses because they literally don’t have the spare part and munition stockpiles for this type of conflict.

Because why the fuck would they have 5000 Air to Air missiles.

Like why the fuck do you clowns expect African countries to have blue water naval equipment or long range strategic bombing equipment. Much less the industrial tooling and equipment to mass produce shit. Or the munition stockpiles of the peak warsaw pact.

This shit would turn into Russia invading Ulraine all over again. They invade all their equipment immediately starts breaking down because you need a stupid amount of maintenance and spare parts for force projection then gets blown to piece by the 8 bajillion artillery shells that every WW2 era battle has.

An Abrams is impressive, an Abrams getting its entire support fleet and infantry bombarded by 15 howitzer shells every second aint staying in the fight no matter who you are.

Does Africa even have a stockpile of over 10k anti air missiles just to clear the skys or enough bomb stockpiles to crack the massive amount of industrial equipment spread out over a continent.
Why would they even have it, they’re prepped for small high speed modern conflicts.

Oh you blew up a thousand howitzers too bad they have a couple hundred thousand of the fucking things and made over a million of them in 5 years.

Like you can’t 1v12 this shit no matter how much you insist.

Why does everyone insist that a continent in relative peacetime with their militaries built for small modern battlefields with limited force projection would just have this much material laying around. They have people to take care of, they aren’t trying to prove a fucking hypothetical

[u/The_Silver_Nuke → u/loseniram]

This was literally my thought as well. And of course OP says that you're working too hard on the one dissenting comment to try to discredit you, but will gladly soak in the praise of affirming comments and edit a whole ass video praising his favorite jets.

It's not "2026 Africa with 1 year of mobilization". It's Africa right here right now. That specific year had all of Europe already mobilized and ready for killing. All they have to do is load up into their transports and they're en route.

Africa now would have to start the process of switching all of their manufacturing lines to wartime from civilian and then start drafting and training 10x the amount of men just to meet the numbers fielded.

Modern Africa may have missiles and drones, but like you said there's a whole other aspect outside of technology. For how often this sub praises logistics, they're completely ignoring that aspect of warfare.

[u/vqkr1 → u/loseniram]

Africa doesn’t lose vs 1939 Europe. Seems like neither side has the force projection to invade the other but gee can that century of tech edge inflict a world of hurt on Europe.

We’d need a better definition of the “war” though, as in what are each sides goals, in order to imagine how it might play out.

[u/Kingofcheeses]

Nigeria could solo Nazi Germany no problem. GG

[u/Mini_Raptor5_6]

It's kinda funny because a lot of 1939 Europe could barely handle 1939 Africa. What would they do against 2026 Africa?

[u/Keranan37 → u/Mini_Raptor5_6]

1939 Europe couldn't handle 1939 Africa because it was fighting 1939 Europe in 1939 africa

[u/loseniram → u/Mini_Raptor5_6]

They literally handled 1939 Africa it got Italy kicked out of the league of nations for it.

[u/DepressedVercetti]

1939 armour would be moral support considering nothing back then would stand up to an M72 or RPG-7 round. Maybe a KV-1 or Matilda II would get lucky occasionally though.

The Hilux meta would absolutely tear shit up, Europe had nothing that fast and would just outmaneuver any elements that tried going into the North African desert.

[u/Negative_Jaguar_4138]

I'm sorry but Africa has no chance if the war goes on longer than like a month.

You cannot underestimate the sheer production numbers that were acheived in WW2. And without the UK, USSR, and Germant fighting each other, the resource shortage becomes a much less pressing concern, especially to the one Africa faces.

In total Africa produces 15 AAMs per year, and only South Africa does. Even with wartime scaling this pales in comparison to peacetime production numbers for Europe.

Britain built 8,000 aircraft in 1939 alone. Add in the rest of Europe and they are probably producing 5,000 aircraft PER MONTH. Africa produces exactly 0 aircraft. Every single one lost is irreplacable.

A lucky shot from a gunner, pilot error and a stall, mechanical failure, friendly fire. Eventually Africa loses enough fighters to the point where European medium bombers like the Blenheim, He111, Wellington, Hampden, SB-2s, DB-3s can break through and directly strike airfields.

On the ground it wouldn't be pretty, but once again Europe has the manufacturing to literally keep throwing bodies at Africa.

Tank combat isn't War Thunder, if you throw a track or have your optics shot out, that's a mission kill. And most WW2 tanks, even early Panzer III can penetrate the sides and rear of most MBTs. It may very well take a dozen tanks, but once again they are replaceable, an Abrams not so much.

[u/MrCockingFinally → u/Negative_Jaguar_4138]

In total Africa produces 15 AAMs per year, and only South Africa does

Also, doubt they can do that without foreign parts.

Plus, if you are relying on Denel to save you, you're fucked.

[u/MuerteEnCuatroActos → u/Negative_Jaguar_4138]

This sub really has gone to hell, hasn't it?