r/Ocarina • u/Shryquill • 6d ago
Advice ICO BC Double vs Triple?
Edit: Order placed! Thank you for your help everyone. I decided on the BC Double.
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I'm currently trying to figure out whether I'd prefer an ICO BC Double or Triple for my first multi-chamber.
The price difference is only ~10% more for triple which is no problem, but the weight is 50% more which seems substantial. I love the idea of having more range, but want something that's still confortable to play.
Coming from an AC Single, the highest notes are already a bit too shill for me, so I'm not sure the extra upper range is really something I'd want to use a lot.
I'm not knowledgeable or skilled enough for a multi just yet, but how I'm imagining playing one would be taking what I can already play on my single and just dropping it down an octave so the music isn't so shrill, while still getting some extra range to open up opportunity for new pieces.
All this leaves me thinking a BC Double probably makes the most sense, yet I have no experience with either. Is there something obvious I'm missing here? That it would be foolish to not just get the BC Triple, or even BC Single instead?
Lastly, looking at the fingering charts for these, I noted this piece of text that I can't understand the reason for, featured on the Single AC and Double BC, but not the Single BC or Triple BC: "Notes are written one octave lower than actual pitch."
Any thoughts what this means or where I'd go to learn more about it? I feel like it's something to do with transposing, which is something else I don't really understand just yet.
https://www.imperialcityocarina.com/images/cache/ac-double-x-fingering-chart.pdf
https://www.imperialcityocarina.com/images/cache/bc-triple-ext-fingering-chart-new.pdf
Thank you!
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u/AliceShella 6d ago
In most cases the range of a double will be enough for most songs as well. And the bass double will already be quite heavy. Especially from ICO as their ocarinas tend to be quite heavy. My Alto G from ICO is same weight as my Double Alto G. I would pick the double first.
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u/Shryquill 6d ago
That's very reassuring, thank you! I saw Focalink has a double BC that's nearly a kilogram! This newer ICO design is supposed to be about half the weight at 500 grams. Not sure how much the ICO double used to weigh, but it seems like my best bet.
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u/tribbin 5d ago
I very recently received my triple BC from ICO. However, I'm considering buying an ocarina for my sister and would give her the double as there are very few songs that benefit from the highest few tones and my double chamber alto feels much more ergonomic.
The 3rd chamber of my ICO bass C sounds less piercing than my (Focalink/Stein) double alto though.
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u/Shryquill 5d ago
That's an interesting perspective, thank you. I suppose once I run out of music that fits on a double, that will be when it's time to step up to a triple haha.
To be clear, the double you're considering for your sister, are you thinking BC or AC?
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u/Random_ThrowUp 1d ago
Here is my general advice. If you MUST start a Bass for your first Multi, go with a Double BC. Bass Ocarinas are naturally heavier, and may take time to get used to.
I would recommend getting a 12-hole Bass to start off, but if you're already playing 12-Hole Alto, then it may be fine to switch to a double Bass C.
ICO is an excellent Ocarina Brand. Their Multis have a "flat slope" from the second chamber onward, and there isn't really any awkward "dips" or "rises" between the chambers. The ergonomic downside to their Ocarinas is that the Left Hand Pinky hole is placed in an angle where your pinky "comes in from the side" instead of from the top like the other holes. For some, that is uncomfortable, especially those with long pinkies. Some have reported that causes the Pinky to take a lot of weight and affects agility.
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u/Shryquill 1d ago
Thank you for your detailed reply! After LOTS of flip-flopping and considering the helpful advice the good people here shared, I had already placed an order.
I ended up biting both bullets and opted for their 12 hole BC and Double BC.
As of March this year both their Double and Triple BC were redesigned to shave about 250g off of each, leaving them at 500g and 750g. Their 12 hole BC is actually heavier at 560g.
I almost used the weight savings as justification for the triple, but in the end decided lighter and simpler probably makes more sense for me at my current level. After what you've said, I think my pinky will be thanking me too!
I'm curious to experience that flat slope, I've only heard of them so far, but I expect that probably helps the high notes from getting too loud, which would be a win for me.
My largest remaining concern with leaving the triple behind is that I'll now have a substantial overlap in range between these (A3-F5 vs A3-C6), so it'll be interesting in practice to see which gets more use. So far I'm pretty happy with what I've settled on.
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u/Random_ThrowUp 19h ago
The downside of a flatter slope in the upper chambers is that it may make the upper chambers sound suddenly weaker. If you are a flat-slope preference, then it is fine. I myself am a forte preference (higher breath and rising breath pressure), so I don't like it.
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u/Shryquill 15h ago
Ah, could go both ways. I'd even say I like the power that high notes can bring, but as a practicality it's not as often I'd get to use them. I can imagine that change part way through the it's range could be a bit jarring. Will be interesting to see at any rate.
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u/CrisGa1e 6d ago edited 6d ago
Honestly, I would recommend the double in your case, especially since it is your first ocarina, and you said that the high notes of an AC are too shrill for you. BC triple ocarinas are extremely heavy imo, so a double would definitely be easier to play for long periods. The hardest thing about a multichamber is chamber switching and being able to isolate the airflow into only one chamber at a time. It will be a better learning experience to only have to switch between the left and right chamber versus having to isolate your airflow into a middle chamber.
Edit: I read your post again and saw that you are also open to a BC single. A single would definitely be more beginner friendly to learn on than a double. When I read it the first time, I guess I missed that part and thought you were deciding between a double and triple.
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u/Shryquill 6d ago
Thanks Cris, I really appreciate your opinion on the matter! I've an Aria AC on the way and it's been the longest two weeks of my life waiting for it, very excited!
Glad to hear I'm mostly on the right track, regarding the amount of chambers atleast. The point about a double being easier to learn switching makes a lot of sense too, hadn't considered that.
I guess the choice between single or multi is one I should consider more carefully. The extended range is very alluring, yet ease of playability might make the overall experience better with the single. I did find it interesting that ICO lists their Double BC being around 10% lighter than their Single BC, 500g vs 560g.
Being as proficient as you are, between a Single and Double BC, which do you think you'd enjoy playing more in a home-setting?
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u/CrisGa1e 6d ago
Aw thanks, I hope you love it!🫶
I think with the deeper bass ocarinas, single chambers are definitely more enjoyable to play. With an AC, I prefer the triple over the double, because it’s already much lighter.
With a BC, the extra weight from a double to a triple, or a triple to a quad, makes it a lot more difficult for me to get a consistent result. Muscle memory helps a lot, but if your hands start to hurt after a short time, it makes it harder develop muscle memory. I think it really depends on the player though. If your hands don’t hurt, you can practice longer, and maybe it’s not that different from the experience of playing an AC triple.
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u/Shryquill 4d ago
I'm sure I will, the extra length will be a welcome reprieve!
Been back and forth over this quite a bit, lots to consider, this thread's been very insightful for me.
I think you're right, rather than compromising enjoyment for range I do want a BC single to have on rotation, will help build some muscle memory too. I've not given up on multi-chamber just yet, but with a single available, I'll just make the leap straight to BC triple for the range, I'll take my time with it.
If you have any opinion on it, there is one other thing I'm struggling to find answers about: I've seen it a few places where an ocarina has a variant or feature called "max range" or "extended range". In the context of the ICO BC triple, the extended version has a split thumb hole on the highest chamber to squeeze out a few more notes.
Surely the extended version is just objectively better? Why would someone not want the version with extra range? It seems like the sort of feature you'd just want to be made standard across all models.
Really appreciate your perspective for such details.
https://www.imperialcityocarina.com/bc-triple.html https://www.imperialcityocarina.com/bc-triple-extended.html
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u/CrisGa1e 4d ago edited 4d ago
When the Maxrange first came out, I liked the idea of it, and I spent some time playing it. I eventually came to the conclusion that I still prefer the standard fingering system better, because you get a better tone color, and more comfortable playability on a regular triple than you do on a Maxrange double. It was a cool experiment, but I don’t think it will ever replace the standard system. When the Maxrange bass first came out, the only triple basses on the market were very expensive, so that made it a good value if you wanted the range of a triple bass but couldn’t afford a standard one, but now there are brands like Ico that are much more affordable, so imo the sacrifices you have to make for the playability and tone color aren’t worth it anymore.
You can kind of make the same argument for single chamber that has a key for high G, which is essentially a single with maximized range. It’s a cool idea, and playing G with a key is definitely easier than the “Ogawa tone” technique you have to do to get a high G without a key, but on the other hand, why not just use a double since the tone color will be nicer for the G? It’s a cool idea, and there’s nothing wrong with having a keyed ocarina. At this point in my life, I guess I’m just at a point where I think the tone quality is a higher priority.
A music teacher that I respect a lot told me a story about a time when he was asking a colleague who was hiring people for a very prestigious band what he was looking for in the players he hired. He said it wasn’t how well they could sight read, or how polished their techniques were. He said the main thing he needed was for them to have a good tone and be in control of their instrument, and the rest he could work with. I thought that was really interesting.
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u/Shryquill 4d ago
That last bit is fascinating, I suppose at such a high level a lack of good tone and control could be more difficult to correct, especially with so much muscle memory working against the musician.
Cheers for sharing your perspective as well as a bit of the history about how Maxrange came to be. With that context it makes much more sense looking at what's currently being sold. I guess I didn't even consider ocarina design is constantly being experimented with and trying to be improved upon.
In the vein of experimentation, it will be interesting to see if STL or others are able use additive construction like 3D printing to design something that wasn't possible before. That would surely be the next chapter for budget triples.
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u/EmphasisJust1813 6d ago
All? AC ocarinas sound an octave higher than the note written on the stave.
The BC ocarina's sound as written.
The fingering chart for the ICO BC Double shows it plays two octaves from middle C4 to C6 inclusive. That allows a huge amount of melody tunes to be played.
That range and the fact that it seemed much easier to me to learn just two chambers caused me to choose the ICO BC double.
I am "guessing" (someone please correct me) that a little used third chamber means you need more skill to play the commonly used middle chamber with its windway slot in the centre. So a double seemed a good start when moving from single to multi-chamber.