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u/Doucevie 3d ago
We've been so terribly wronged.
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u/SquidTheRidiculous 3d ago edited 3d ago
And so often the only justification against righting that wrong is the discomfort it causes men.
Often worded as "well of course young men are turning fascist and repeating history; we've been too busy repeating that feminism is about hating men literally for the entire century plus it has existed verbatim. Of course we're not going to listen to what feminists are actually saying we're just going to take the words of the newest least educated feminists and/or most status quo backed identified feminist as representative of the whole movement."
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u/Witty-Quality1613 3d ago
I had the misfortune of knowing a man who said, point blank, he "hates the term PTSD because it applies to women who are raped and not just soldiers."
He was a very stupid, misogynistic man.
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u/kraggleGurl 3d ago
I thought it couldn't have ptsd because I am not a vet. Dr had to explain it to me.
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u/EmmerdoesNOTrepme 3d ago
Same here!
I don't have any of the "typical" PTSD triggers (as far as i know, anyway).
I just grew up hearing the stories of the guys who served during the Vietnam era (they forgot i was in the room, and would share their stories of being in the service, because they thought it was only a bunch of former military folks there.
And i also grew up knowing countless women in my life, from my mom, to cousins & friends--including childhood friends, female and male--who were raped or otherwise sexually assaulted.
The idea my "stress & anxiety" could be PTSD?
That never even crossed my mind! Because i never had any "one awful incident" like so many of the folks i grew up around or knew.
I never thought mine could also be PTSD, because "my stressful stuff wasn't THAT bad!"
Until my therapist had me take the PCL-5, and i scored double what the baseline is to be considered "having PTSD."
Turns out that "Secondhand Trauma" combined with the stress of navigating loved ones through medical trauma, and living through "interesting times" (like Minneapolis in 2020), IS enough to tip a body into all-out PTSD.
Even if you personally weren't ever "attacked" in a physical way.
The hypervigilance of always feeling like you have to be "on guard and alert" to keep the ones around you safe--because the only other ones in your group who are physically "able to help" crumble under stress--can set off PTSD, too.
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u/kinokits 2d ago
I have diagnosed C-PTSD from pretty nasty trauma, and was completely blind sided when I realised I was responding to a prolonged situation at work in the same physical way (discrimination and negligence). It was a real opener to realise that something I considered relatively minor in the scale of the shit I’ve been through could have the same repercussions for my health as prolonged physical trauma.
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u/phoebesjeebies 3d ago
I strongly recommend watching this talk by Kevin Smith about this exact thing (TW: sexual assault, trauma, PTSD).
I don't care if you hate Kevin Smith, this is worth watching anyway. And also he's not Being Kevin Smith about it.
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u/No-Fly-6069 1d ago
People also develop PTSD from being mugged, auto accidents, natural disasters, lots of different experiences.
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u/hyphenssuck 3d ago
For most of human history rape of a woman was considered a property crime against a woman's father/husband/etc... essentially whoever "owned" her. Only very recently was marital rape even considered a crime.
The amount of injustice suffered by women throughout history is hard to even imagine, and yet when Shane Gillis calls women whores on national television. Or a woman speaks up about her rape case that was never properly investigated because of some shitass district attorney... They crawl out of the woodwork to defend their "bros".
It's an absolute disgrace.
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u/Gussie-Ascendent Allegedly approved user 3d ago
Oh yeah, check what the Bible says is to be done with an umpromised woman who is raped:
She's to be sold to the rapist for 50 silver. Like a cow or a piece of furniture
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u/No-Theme2340 3d ago
Ye olde "you break it, you bought it." but with an actual suffering human being. Ain't patriarchy grand? /S
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u/GirlisNo1 3d ago
Not just the ones who defend, but the fact that most don’t say anything at all. The silence is deafening.
That’s what gets me. We live right alongside them and they could give two fucks about the worst things happening to us on a regular basis.
Thousands of years of being property without basic human rights, and now that when we can finally shed some light on our issues they have the AUDACITY to come in with “but what about men?!” And that too after…you know…men did nothing to fight for the basic rights of women for millennia.
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u/TimeNegotiator 3d ago
I'm reading Sirens of Titan by Kurt Vonnegut now, and there's a female character that gets raped. The book portrays her rapist and her husband as the victims. The rapist because the act shows his boorishness. The husband because his property has been taken from him.
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u/chimneyswallow 2d ago
That's Not true. For most of human history women were equal. Only when they settled down, it got worse. But the time is much shorter, which a lot of people conveniently forget when talking about "traditional". Opressing women was to break from the usual. Going back to the longest tradition would mean being equal again.
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u/NeedLegalAdvice56 1d ago
"History" is about written times, and, for most of them, women were oppressed. Now if you want to talk about Prehistory, I would just like this that it was 75% equal and 25% oppressed. Anytime after agriculture came about was bad. Even for a lot of nomadic women because of cultural exchange.
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u/maniacalmustacheride 3d ago
I was sitting at a bar once with a bunch of friends having a good time, nothing crazy, and whoop went the alarm bells. Try to stifle, it isn’t working, trying to breathe, isn’t working, I’m fidgeting and I know where my eyes keep going, and I’m trying to tell myself I’m overreacting for no reason and finally I just say I’m going out to smoke.
Maybe I had a look when I got outside, I don’t know, someone else comes out, a dude, lights up, and asks if I’m okay and I say yes and try to talk about the weather and laugh but did this sort of dismissive wave in front of my face when I said it was “too much” inside (it really wasn’t that busy) and he just very intensely said “oh, the dude that came in and won’t take his hand out of his pocket? That’s why I’m out here.”
And I don’t know why it came out of my mouth but I said “what happened?” And he said “was poor and they told me the Army would make it better. drag You?” And I guess I did the hand waive again and said “the other thing.” drag
And he nodded. “Yeah, it’s fucked up. Your body says to run, someone forces you not to. You like stars? Me too. I don’t know any of their names.” And then real slow “but I’ve always liked looking at em.” So I pointed out a few things I knew. We smoked another cigarette. Laughed about how we’d figured out different exits, who we’d grab. “It’s called catastophising, but it doesn’t feel like that. It feels like your whole body is about to sneeze but worse, and you just need it to happen. You don’t want it to happen, but if it did, you’d have somewhere to put all that energy.”
We hugged. Went back in. He just went straight to the bar and said what was up and then straight to the guy. Dude had a bunch of roofies in his pocket but swore it was his “first time” and he wasn’t trying to do anything. They kick him out. Buddy comes over and says “looks like it was ‘the other thing.’ But he’s gone.” His accent. “But hees gown.”We ended up adopting him for the night and he sang a mean karaoke.
But I’ll never forget him looking at me, not dismissively, and just seeing someone else fighting it out. I hope he’s okay out there.
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u/UnleveledFoundation 3d ago
My therapist is a female sexual assault survivor and I am a male with complex ptsd/combat ptsd. We both look at each other wondering how we’re functioning when she chooses to disclose her trauma and I talk about my experiences. In my head that is progress. It’s more than unfortunate that so many had to suffer for two people to sit down and discuss how to navigate this modern life. I’m going to save these images and share them with her.
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u/Both-Pack8730 3d ago
This seems so human-oriented it makes me want to weep. Sharing is part of the human experience and you both being able to do this just seems excellent. No power imbalance, just 2 people learning from each other.
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u/Cold_Vanilla9791 3d ago
I had a male sexual assault survivor, and even tho our trauma was different I felt like he understood me better than most ppl, it’s nice to have a therapist who is willing to share with you to and make you feel more comfortable by showing you they get it, I got diagnosed with PTSD way after I got a different therapist but I do miss him and wonder what he would have to say about my diagnosis
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u/AnimatorImpressive24 3d ago
PTSD can also be observed in people who closely witness their loved ones being treated in ICU or NICU over prolonged periods of time. Traumatic stress is an internal categorization based on what a given human being considers to comprise an existential risk, so any disorder arising from an overabundance of traumatic stress must of necessity involve diagnostic criteria informed by the beliefs and values of the patient.
What's more, care should be taken to avoid even subconscious judgements of validity or authenticity of specific scenarios placed on a list of experiences that "qualify" someone for diagnosis. Because the studies that have observed PTSD symptoms arising in combat drone pilots (as an example) strongly suggest that if someone is sufficiently convinced they are experiencing an existential threat then they effectively are experiencing it and will be impacted accordingly. A drone pilot's experience of violence is transmitted to them through so much technological abstraction that it would be trivial to simulate the whole thing and just tell the pilot it was "real", not to mention the whole "they are completely impervious to the violence they are only witnessing as a result of inflicting it on others" aspect.
The general public's willingness to consider the implications of that last bit varies wildly between soldiers and convicts, but PTSD doesn't so much seem to care about anyone's opinion of who "counts" as a victim.
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u/kraggleGurl 3d ago
I am so shocked the dsm has not been updated. I was beaten and raped for 4 years. Diagnosed with ptsd, depression and anxiety. I cannot sleep without without meds due to night terrors. They need to update their stuff.
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u/TheChiarra 3d ago
What meds do you take for your night terrors so i can bring them up to my psych? I've suffered with them since childhood. I honestly didn't know they were night terrors until i told my therapist about them. her eyes went wide and said no wonder you're terrified to go to sleep.
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u/kraggleGurl 3d ago
Prazosin. Has greatly improved my quality of life. Its cheap too!
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u/afterforeverends 2d ago
Seconding prazosin! Gets rid of the nightmeres, I wake up screaming some nights that I forget to take it. It's also helped lower the frwuwecy of flashbacks when im awake
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u/vienibenmio 2d ago
I'm a psychologist who specializes in PTSD. Sexual trauma is also associated with the highest rates of non recovery, even compared to combat trauma.
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u/No-Theme2340 2d ago
That makes sense to me. Veterans can leave the war zone, and eventually learn on the subconscious level that they are back to the"safety" the knew Before. Rape survivors usually stay in the same cultural and often physical context of their attack(s). And rapists don't wear enemy uniforms to mark them clearly, so the hypervigilance can never relax.
It's been 35 years since the last time, and I'm still caught in it. And I've tried everything I can afford. PTSD (or CPTSD, if we ignore the DSM) is just part of my life now.
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u/vienibenmio 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's also an intentional act done to you by another person, usually someone you trust, and an act that is supposed to be one of love and intimacy, not to mention the stigma of sex in general. Very shattering to one's view of themselves, others, and the world. Rape culture and victim blaming also are a factor. Trauma related beliefs, particularly self blame, are a big predictor of PTSD.
I'm sorry to hear that. We have some great treatments out there if you haven't tried them yet: cognitive processing therapy and prolonged exposure therapy. Both were initially developed to treat PTSD secondary to sexual trauma but they work so well they are now used to treat PTSD secondary to any type of trauma.
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u/Just-Feedback-2223 1d ago
I think it’s because we’re forced to live around our abusers for the rest of our lives. The people who raped and allowed me to get raped still live in my community. There are very little job opportunities here in rural North Dakota. I had to quit a job because the rapist was there. I can’t keep a fucking job.
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u/TheChiarra 3d ago
Interesting! Thank you for the read. It's funny it's not in the DSM and I got diagnosed with it anyways from childhood trauma. Sickening how women are treated in health care.
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u/KyleFromBorrasca 2d ago
It's been in the DSM for decades, assuming you mean non-combat PTSD. What's changed is statistics on how very common rape and child abuse are. The requirement that it be "outside the range of usual human experiences" was removed in 1994 but there have been even more changes since then.
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u/Due_Pin78 2d ago
The only reason PTSD from combat was studied so thoroughly was because they were studying soldiers (like many other studies) and they wanted to know what to do to get men ready to fight and back on the front lines. That was the sole concern up until very very recently. Look at the language surrounding the study of 'shell shock' during the first world war--it is about minimum possible rest, minimum possible cost, to get a soldier back to fighting effectively as quickly as possible.
The concern about PTSD ended abruptly at the point the soldier would not be fighting anymore (either at the end of the war, or due to injury.) It was not about treatment or well-being, or really any care at all for the soldier. This was still an improvement from how it was previously handled: summary execution for cowardice.
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u/bewitch1n 2d ago
Having only one type of person in charge of everything will always be detrimental to other groups. Its why diversity is important, why science is important, why the truth of history is important. Sad to see human progress going backwards.
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u/Negative-Cow-2808 2d ago
“When men are violated at war, we build them monuments. When women are violated at home, we tear them down, make them pay.” - Judith Lewis Herman
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u/KyleFromBorrasca 2d ago
Erm, I don't think the monuments were actually for the benefit of the soldiers...
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u/FoamboardDinosaur 3d ago
Excellent. I will be calling it rape trauma syndrome from here on out. Every man will be told, ah, you're suffering from RTS.
Just as 'scientist' was coined for 'women who do science', was co-opted by peepees, so RTS was co-opted (and only legitimized and mainstreamed) once a peepee was shown to suffer from it
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u/make_me_already 3d ago
I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused by this comment. What exactly are you saying here?
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u/Clever_Mercury 3d ago
Do you know what I think would have offered the single greatest improvement to humanity?
If we had spent a couple generations killing not only any convicted rapist, but the person's parents.
We went through eras where we burnt witches, burnt widows, chopped off hands of thieves, opened up the lungs or cut out the hearts of traitors, but we never provided a really clean sweep of predators. We should have done so. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power. If you get rid of the people who do it and you specifically put the blame on the family that was responsible for it, you could rewire quite a bit of your society, quickly. I'm astonished this wasn't done in, say, the 1600s or 1800s for awhile.
I think it would certainly have spared the world an awful lot of CEOs, military lunatics, and bad politicians.
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u/insomniacPrince 20h ago
Bad take. Cutting off hands never stopped theft, capital punishment doesn't stop rape or murder. This is not an individual issue of "bad apples," it's systemic.
Saying this as a survivor or sexual assault, people need to be given the chance to learn and change. Yes, including rapists. Punishment and demonization most often just makes people get defensive and double down on their toxic behaviors.
If we really want to reduce the rates of sexual assault and other abuses of power, we need to restructure society to solve those massive power imbalances. We need to educate people, from early childhood, about consent. You said yourself that rape is about power: If we keep with the status quo, with rich white cis men holding the most societal power, no amount of state-sanctioned murder will prevent widespread rape and abuse.
This is why feminism is important for everyone.
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u/42LargePeas 2d ago
I have PTSD so bad that I don't feel safe in this world at all anymore, I rarely go outside, I can't work, and people terrify me. Therapists terrify me too, because I've been abused by that system. I feel like I'm going to die.
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u/False_Astronomer_300 1d ago
My shoulders and neck hurt so bad I’ve had to use bengay since it happened it’s like I physically carry the weight of it.
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u/Hepperoni4 1d ago
I mean.. the DSM is kind of shit to begin with. Even clinicians who were taught off it, say that
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u/SchemeBig4199 1d ago
It was called “shell shock” in WWI, the name PTSD is recent but clearly it is a condition that has probably always existed.
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u/sugar_skull_love2846 21h ago
My mom developed PTSD from serving in the Navy. The kicker? It was because she was sexually assaulted while serving, not anything combat related
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u/insomniacPrince 20h ago
This is depressing, but not surprising. Like many aspects of our society, trauma and PTSD have only been given legitimacy when they impact the most important people in the patriarchy: cisgender white men, especially those who are wealthy and powerful.
What we now know as trauma or PTSD, as a concept, didn't exist until the late 19th century with the advent of widespread railroad travel. Rail travel was faster than anything humans had ever experienced before, and accidents were common on early railroads. When wealthy businessmen who had been in railway accidents started experiencing symptoms of PTSD, they sued the railway companies for damages: though they were not physically injured, their psychological symptoms rendered them unable to work, thus reducing their income and value to society. The diagnosis of "railway spine" was created, and railway companies lost many lawsuits in the late 19th and early 20th centuries with this argument.
But of course, people have been experiencing traumatic events long before this. But no one ever talked about the rights of factory laborers, coal miners, the people building these railway systems. When one poor, Black, woman, immigrant, or child worker died or suffered serious trauma, they were replaced; that was just the norm. But when a wealthy white lawyer can't work due to flashbacks and anxiety from a railway accident? That's serious business. The "railway spine" diagnosis eventually faded from public consciousness, but was integrated into what we now understand as post-traumatic stress.
Of course the PTSD of (mostly male) combat veterans matters more to a patriarchal society than the PTSD of women who have been raped. When the societal expectation is that women are sexual objects, rape is a natural occurrence not worth recognizing. Women's physical and mental health needs have always historically been dismissed, whether as "hysteria" or some other diminutive euphemism. I hope, as mental health matters are less stigmatized and more widely discussed, that this can change. But as long as a society's foundations are built on the suffering and subjugation of a subset of people, that suffering can never be fully legitimized; otherwise, that society as we know it would fall apart.
Funny, isn't it, that we're seeing such a strong conservative pushback in response to marginalized groups who have been more loudly speaking up about their suffering? To quote the show Letterkenny: Kinda makes a fella wonder.
I first heard the story of railway spine and early concepts of PTSD in this interview with processor Catherine Liu: https://youtu.be/JysbLAm7uL4?is=lzApi1EPgQTULcu_
This 2003 article describes more details about how railway spine was popularized and integrated into our societal understanding of trauma, in relation to post-9/11 anxieties around air travel: https://www.americanheritage.com/railway-neurosis-and-birth-psychotherapy
I tried to find more sources on the links between recognition of trauma via railway spine and socioeconomic class, but most are locked behind paywalls.
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u/AuraTickler 2d ago
Daily dose of gender war 😅
Its horrible it took so long that any form of ptsd was recognized.
Was there no classification for rape trauma at all before that?
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u/SiegfriedVK 3d ago
Its to make people mad I guess? Idk. This sub and r/sipstea appear to be mirrors of each other.
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u/ArmsVSeaOfTroubles 3d ago
Because of course there are only two kinda of trauma, war and rape. Nobody ever, man or woman, lived through a severe beating or maiming of course, so obviously men had to steal raped women’s trauma by creating war and dying from it and leaving the survivors scarred just to one up women!
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u/ZoneBaddy 3d ago
Men with PTSD during WW1 were called cowards and executed. It somehow took a very long time to stop executing men with PTSD and start recognizing and treat it. Sorry, but what you’re describing isn’t worse than that
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u/make_me_already 3d ago
Do you think female sexual assault survivors have never killed themselves from trauma? Do you really? Do you really think they've never been mocked, ostracized and bullied out of their own communities?
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u/No-Theme2340 3d ago
Or even worse. My wife's grandmother was in an abusive marriage. The marital rape, which was not even a legal concept at the time, broke her. She was sent to a mental hospital where she was given shock treatments and threatened with a lobotomy if she didn't stop crying at the mention of being sent back home.
She did stop crying, and they sent her back to her husband/rapist.
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u/Timbucktwo1230 🫖 Mod ☕️ 3d ago