r/PrequelMemes • u/No1PDPStanAccount Fuck the Council • 6d ago
General Reposti Knew, Yoda already did
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u/Heckle_Jeckle 6d ago
I know that the movies should have covered this bit of info. But in the Novelization the Jedi believe that one of Palpatine's Advisors was the Sith. Which is why they didn't link the Dark Side of the Force surrounding Palpatine to Palpatine himself. They thought it was one of his Advisors.
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u/kafit-bird 6d ago
They say there's no point suspecting Palpatine because he already rules the galaxy. He has no need for scheming or Sith shit. He already has every single ounce of power a person could possibly have.
Which overlooks the fact that scheming and Sith shit is how he got that power.
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u/Masticatron 5d ago
They were used to Sith wanting power but being too comically self-destructive to actually have it. A successful, hyper-competent Sith was inconceivable.
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u/Leafsnail 3d ago
Are they? The Sith had been completely silent for hundreds of years prior to Darth Maul's confrontation and were presumed extinct. Although yeah they might have underestimated Palpatine's ambition to assume even more absolute rule
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u/cardiffman100 6d ago
The Jedi were written so dumb, this is one of my criticisms of Ep 3. They had Dooku telling them a Sith was in control of the Senate, AND they sensed the Dark Side around the Chancellor specifically. And all they do about it is send Anakin, who is the Chancellor's close friend, to spy on him?
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u/TrayusV 6d ago
You're misunderstanding.
First, the plan worked, Anakin told Mace that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and Mace came one strike away from stopping the Sith forever.
Second, the Jedi knew they had walked into a trap. Hell, Yoda figures out the entire Clone Wars is a trap right after the battle of Geonosis. But the Jedi also acknowledged that they really couldn't do anything about their situation beyond being prepared for when the trap is sprung, and they were.
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u/deadname11 6d ago
I still say they were under-prepared. Any time the Sith did show up in history, it always meant a lot of good Jedi dying to take them down. The Dark Side itself may not be stronger than the Light Side, but it absolutely encourages the rise of exceptionally combat-capable Sith, to the point where direct confrontation often would be a bad idea for you standard Jedi Knight. Unless you were a combat prodigy yourself, your best bet would be unconventional tactics. Throw the Sith off their game.
Otherwise, real Sith Masters just muller you.
On that note, had Anakin's fears and concerns been actually addressed and not simply dismissed (And by that I mean, had Yoda just directly asked Anakin who, exactly, he feared losing)? Palpatine's hold on him may have been broken.
Otherwise, Anakin was the worst possible Jedi Knight to lose, given that he was one of your few true combat prodidgies outside of Obiwan, Mace, and Yoda himself.
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u/plokoonisgoat 5d ago
Yeah, in the clone wars show the Jedi find out that Dooku ordered the construction of the clone army and the Jedi just said yes it's dangerous but there isn't much we can do in the middle of a war. Just, be cautious.
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u/PapertrolI 4d ago
They were not prepared, they all died! And also, it's not like sending Anakin to spy on Palpatine was some brilliant stroke of genius on the Jedi's part, they did it to get him off the council after Palpatine put him on it.
It's true that Anakin would be the best person to gain information from the chancellor, but considering Anakin's close relationship with Palpatine, and his terrible relationship with the jedi order, the plan overall was pretty stupid.
In fact, Mace Windu is so surprised when Anakin actually figures out that Palpatine is the sith lord, that he offers him a promotion on the spot, despite not trusting him for three movies at this point
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u/fess89 3d ago
This is really bad preparation. The Jedi figured out that Palpatine was a Sith after many years of him being a famous politician? Why didn't they preemptively check each member of the Senate to ensure they are not Sith (as their suspicion was initially that someone else in the Senate is)?
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u/cardiffman100 5d ago
You're misunderstanding. Palpatine's plan worked, yes. The Jedi were written dumb for not figuring it out earlier. It actually took Palpatine openly revealing himself to a Jedi before any of them took action.
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u/TrayusV 5d ago
What would you have the Jedi do prior to learning Palaptine is a Sith Lord?
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u/cardiffman100 5d ago
You're still missing the point. I'm criticising the writing, not the actions taken in-universe. It should have been written so that the Jedi weren't dumb and figured it out earlier based on the weight of all the circumstantial evidence. Or they do more than just plant a spy three years after first being told a Sith was controlling the Senate. I understand the chain of events as presented within the movies, I'm criticising the writing decisions that led to that chain of events.
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u/Emsee_Hamm 5d ago
What circumstantial evidence? In the movie they have Dooku say the Senate or a part of it is under control of the Sith, that narrows the suspects from anyone to potentially tens of thousands of suspects. He never specified how he has them under their sway, it could be the Chancellor, or it could be one of his advisors. It could be an influential Senator or planetary leader, it could be an aide to a Senator, a Journalist, a banker, a security guard and so on. Any of those occupations could have senators under their sway if they found sufficient dirt on several Senators and influenced them to get others on their side.
The entire point of the Sith is that they have been hidden for a millenia biding their time and plotting under the noses of the Jedi. There's no reason to assume the Sith is out in the open in a position of power or someone who will be noticed easily.
Also by ROTS the Jedi have narrowed it down to someone in Palpatines inner circle, so clearly they have been searching.
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u/notaname454 5d ago
Also, why would they immediately believe Dooku? Dooku had already fallen and become a Sith lord at that point, for all they knew he very well could have been lying to manipulate the Jedi into betraying the Republic. They really did not have much to go on.
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u/Petrus-133 6d ago
They did launch an investigation back in Labirynth of Evil and it was getting soo close that Palpatine ordered Dooku and the Robot to Zerg rush Coruscant lol.
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u/Just_a_Berliner 6d ago
It's a case of cognitive dissonance. They don't recognise and connect the facts since they've been working with him since nearly 20 years.
It would be unbelievable.
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u/TaraLCicora Obi-Wan Kenobi 6d ago
Yes, and in the ROTS novelization when Obi-Wan asks Mace why Palps isn't under consideration for being a Sith, Mace says “The only reason Palpatine's not a suspect is because he already rules the galaxy.”
Womp, womp, womp...Mace maybe that should be the first person that you consider...
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u/Effective-Roll-763 6d ago
Taking into account how in Labyrinth of Evil they were a hairsbreadth away from uncovering Sidious' identity makes this even more ludicrous. (Labyrinth of Evil leads directly into the ROTS novelization for anyone who doesn't know)
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u/TaraLCicora Obi-Wan Kenobi 6d ago
Yes, it really shows a level of denial on their part. But then later in the ROTS novel, it is also revealed that Mace's private attachment was to the Republic, so I can believe him being unwilling to accept that the Republic was really the plaything of the Sith and that he and the other Jedi had been assisting that evil unintentionally for years.
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u/EndlessTheorys_19 6d ago
Okay. Maybe that means the Sith Lord has corrupted the Chancellor. In which case it would be a good idea to send someone to spy on him to see who the Chancellor interacts with, and thus could possibly be the Sith Lord.
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u/MasterOfFlapping 6d ago
Yep. In their minds, if they just arrested Palpatine earlier, the sith lord would have just gone back to the shadows and they would have betrayed the republic for nothing.
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u/CooperDaChance Anakin 5d ago
Honestly if it wasn’t Palpatine himself, my money would have been on Mas Amedda.
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u/BriefPut3954 6d ago edited 6d ago
They didn’t have direct evidence that Palpatine was the Sith lord though
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u/SantosCalzonesBatman 6d ago
They were written too arrogant*
Hence obi wan saying "we would knew" and not believing dooku
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u/Brian_E1971 6d ago
Pretty sure Yodas next words stressed the dangers they were facing and exercised caution. So of course then Windu decides to arrest the Chancellor.
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u/Salami__Tsunami 6d ago
Mace Windu: “we’re going to arrest the Chancellor.”
Anakin: “okay, but what if you need my help?”
Windu: “I doubt it.”
five minutes later
Windu: “oh shit, this MF has hands.”
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u/I_Dont_2 Your text here 6d ago
Tbf, I think both Sidious and Mace were not expecting each other to throw hands
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u/HorsemenofApocalypse 6d ago
five more minutes later
Windu: "oh shit, I have no MF hand."
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u/Salami__Tsunami 5d ago
Palpatine: “Mace Windu? More like Mace Window.”
Windu: “I don’t get it.”
Palpatine: “yeet?”
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u/KainZeuxis Darth Revan 6d ago
I vaguely recall one of the books clarified that Palaptine was able to mask his dark side aura to make it appear that the dark side surrounding him was a result of him being manipulated by the sith rather than him being the source of that aura.
So to the Jedi it looked less like Palaptine was the sith, and more that someone in his inner circle was Darth Sidious and controlling him.
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u/BouncingBallOnKnee 6d ago
Name one politician whom the dark side of the force DOESN'T surround though.
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u/BigManScaramouche Howlers stole my saber 5d ago
Jar Jar.
Because he's better at concealing his true affiliations, than even Palpatine is.
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u/Omnislash99999 6d ago
They suspected he was under the influence of the Sith but not the actual Sith Lord so they weren't totally clueless
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u/StevePalpatine 5d ago
To be fair, I think the assumed Palpatine was a puppet and the Sith Lord was in his inner circle.
I can see why superpowered warrior monks with telepathy shenanigans might find it hard to believe the Sith Lord would be so brazen as to be the head of state himself and be able to keep up that lie for years without slipping. Sith are known for their deception, but not for their self control.
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u/Crosknight Hondo 4d ago
If i recall, mas amedda (alien dude with the staff always near palpatine during his chancellorship) was the primary suspect.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman 4d ago
They were also suspicious enough to have Anankin spy for them.
The reality is Palpatine was essentially untouchable when he became Chancellor. That kind of accusation requires hard evidence
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u/Sean77654 6d ago
Tbh he was counting on the jedi going after him as an excuse to take them out so even if they acted on this earlier it was still what the chancellor was hoping for them to do.
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u/Petrus-133 6d ago
IMO I think that is why the original Clone Wars project works better.
The Jedi set up an investigation and it eventually leads up towards Palpatine enacting the battle of Coruscant to stop them from finding out the truth.
Furthermore Palpatine usually acts through proxies or outright uses Dooku and other cronies to make the Republic believe they are the 2nd Sith (Such as Tann or Bulq) to take the heat off him. Only when those pawns continue to right out, does the target on his back become larger.
Anyone that gets too close to finding out the truth? Get's murked by "happenstance" or "cirucmstances" so far removed that Palpatine's involvement wouldn't even be suggested.
He also - as the Muun face novel specifies - spent his entire political carrer building the persona of an uncorruptable politican. He doesn't really push legistation that nudges towards autoritarhism like he does in TCW - his actual opponents do that as several third parties forced the situation.
And perhaps the most ironic part. The Jedi and the Senators at large - up until it's too late - do not consider Palpatine to be a potential Sith because he is already the most powerful being in the galaxy. And frankly, why would they change that? The Sith were never this clever in their 85 000 years of recorded history.
TCW Palpatine on the other hand always does some shady bullshit, consistently appears in one vision or another, hauls his own ass to Mandalore to kill Maul and is not really THAT far away from hiding his evil desires.
Hell a fucking Kiju literally wakes up and the first thing it does is try to find and kill him lmao.
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u/Hugh-Manatee Obi 5d ago
It really is flooring that such a pivotal story point was relegated to the side cartoon. Like I loved that thing, but I’d trade it for good prequels.
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u/Malvastor 6d ago
That would be why they put a man in place to spy on Palpatine and also have a plan ready to remove him from power as soon as the war ends, which they're about to execute when their spy reports that Palpatine is in fact the Sith Lord. Note that when he hears this Windu says "then our worst fears have been realized" meaning this is in fact a possibility they'd gamed out.
The Jedi made more than a few unforced errors in the prequels but they really weren't as totally out of it as people exaggerate them to be.
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u/BriefPut3954 6d ago
Well the Jedi lacked clear evidence that the Chancellor was the Sith lord until Mace went to go arrest him personally. Before then, everything was based on suspicion.
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u/Chris-raegho 6d ago
I know TCW Lost Episodes came later, but they recontextualize Yoda's lack of actions in RotS. The Force Priestesses literally showed him everything that would happen up to Luke beating Vader, and Vader betraying Palpatine. My understanding is that Yoda had to let it all happen if he wanted the good ending, and even when he tried to change something by facing Palpatine, he still failed. For as much as we're told the future is always in motion, it actually isn't in the SW universe. Everything is set in stone, even free will is a lie as the Cosmic Force decided everything that has happened and will ever happen.
Tbh, this has never sat well with me. It means no character has ever made a choice and it also means that the Force decided to unbalance itself to set the movies in motion, just for the lols.
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u/Alternative_Gold_993 6d ago
I hated that shit and the other episodes trying to explain the Chosen One thing.
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u/fatherandyriley 6d ago
Sometimes I wonder if the chosen one and Virgin birth was a bad idea to start with and Anakin should have been an unusually powerful force user whose origins are kept ambiguous (it could be hinted that the Sith might have had something to do with it).
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u/Celestial_Nuthawk 2d ago
I believe it is implied that the virgin birth was because of Darth Plagueis' attempts to manipulate the Force to create life and that they thought it was unsuccessful until Anakin showed up after Naboo in Phantom Menace, at which point Palpitatine decided to kill Plagueis and groom Anakin to be his apprentice.
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u/Good_Butterscotch_69 6d ago
Essentially it is Kreias ultimate vindication.
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u/PM_ME_ENGINE_BELLS 6d ago
I think extrapolating that free will can't exist (and that the future must be set in stone) from a vision of a future is a bit of a stretch. The key issue is one of causality and this stems from the fact that we can look at the vision Yoda recieves in one of two ways: either Yoda saw the absolute future, or, Yoda saw the future that would be caused by his seeing the future. To the outside observer, these are indistinguishable, but the distinction between them is very important.
In the first case, Yoda saw the future as it was laid out by, for lack of a better term, God, and fought against it, but was powerless to break out of that fate. If this is the case, then why would the Force allow Yoda to see the future? If we assume that the Force is "playing with its food", why do it? The act of showing the vision must be dialogicial — a vision must have an originator and a recipient to have any meaning at all — and if Yoda does not have free will and is therefore an unthinking cog in the machine that the Force uses to play its silly game, what's the point of fhe Force basically telling itself about the future?
Meanwhile, in the second case, the future is fluid, but is self-causing. This would mean that, instead of Yoda being a passive observer of the future, he is an active one: in other words, the act of seeing the future caused that future to happen. Yoda is still fated to fail, but now he can fail with the knowledge that the light side of the Force is, effectively, playing the long game. Maybe he doesn't try as hard against Palpatine, knowing that he needs to survive to bring about the future he saw in his vision. This interpretation allows characters to have "free will" within the context of the universe and I see no textual reason why we should necessarily exclude this idea in favor of the first one.
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u/Chris-raegho 6d ago
It is not just that episode. It is also multiple books (A New Dawn, Secrets of the Jedi, Rogue One Novelization, plenty more), comic books and some of the series. All of it points out that Lucas' vision for Star Wars is that the Cosmic Force is ultimately what controls everything and every living being is a puppet of its design. I read once that he took this from either Buddhism or Taoism, where people have to come to terms with the grand plan the universe has for them and nothing they do changes that plan.
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u/The_Radio_Host 6d ago
If I was an intangible cosmic entity I’d absolutely offset the balance of the universe just for shits and giggles. What the fuck else am I gonna do? Gotta do crazy shit to stay entertained
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u/Lads-09 5d ago
The way I see it is that the force has a will that desires balance and when there is balance the force just lets the world do it's thing but when the balance gets out of whack the force thumbs the scale a little. A prophecy to the jedi when the sith get too powerful, leading a random guy to a sith tomb when the sith get too weak, etc. Neither side can be truly wiped out and if you try the force will work against you. It'd be interesting to dive into the kind of help the dark side gets when the jedi get too powerful. I'd like a jedi character who's conflict is being powerful enough to sense that the force is not on their side this time.
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u/celeste173 6d ago
lol i like my father’s theory. The jedi turned dark. i mean they’re so militarized its not a stretch. Yoda turned dark. Thats why he trained Luke to basically be an assassin. Yoda’s denial was clouding his view of the force.
idk i think its a fun perspective.-4
u/stompy1 6d ago edited 6d ago
Balance; 2 sith; 2 Jedi. Master and apprentice; i've always thought that the Jedi have got this aspect wrong, that's just my weird interpretation.
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u/Emsee_Hamm 5d ago
Why is this take so pervasive when its so stupid?
If that is balance then what you are arguing is that balance lasted 23 years before Vader and Luke unbalanced the force by eliminating the Sith and leaving only the Jedi, at least in the Original trilogy.
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u/ElectronicControl762 5d ago
Balance is just Jedi and normal flow of the galaxy. Sith impose their will onto the force to corrupt it and it then becomes “unbalanced”. Sith arent a necessary evil, they are just evil.
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u/Festivefire 5d ago
"Tired of dealing with politics, I am. Allow the Jedi order to be destroyed through incompetence, I must. Then, retire to an abandoned swamp, I can."
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u/PreTry94 4d ago
It wasn't very well communicated, but the reason for them not moving against Palpatine was that they thought he was being manipulated by Sidious, not that he was Sidious. By all account he was a legitimately elected Chancellor, who then through popularity and emergency power because of the CIS, managed to extend his time in office.
They were zeroing in on him, but at this moment, at most they thought Palpatine was controlled by Sidious
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u/ArcticHypnos 3d ago
I mean, if you’re gonna say that the democratically elected leader of your galactic society is Evil and a Sith Lord and is secretly running both sides, that’s the kind of thing you better be 100% damn sure about imo
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u/fafnor 6d ago
Yoda was a complete disaster as leader of the Jedi Council.
Has anyone ever failed so hard at everything?
And yet he still walks away with good press
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u/BriefPut3954 6d ago edited 6d ago
I mean he managed to keep the Jedi in power for over 900 years, he made mistakes and he wasn’t perfect but he held it together for a long time.
Also he trained Luke who later went to destroy the Sith and bring back the Jedi anyway, so I would say Yoda’s good reputation was well deserved in the end (although with blemishes)
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u/SheevBot 6d ago edited 6d ago
Thanks for providing a source!