Update to pastoral wisdom situation

[u/Past-Gur9162]

I’m an elder in a Reformed evangelical church and would appreciate some counsel on a difficult pastoral question.

Can elders, as an exercise of pastoral wisdom and prudence, direct members in good standing to temporarily refrain from attending corporate worship and normal church activities in order to create space for healing and reconciliation?

In this situation, the elders would explicitly say that the members remain in good standing and that the separation is not church discipline.

How would you distinguish this from formal church discipline? Does Scripture give elders this kind of authority, and if so, what biblical principles or limitations should govern its use?

I’m especially interested in how Reformed churches and pastors would think through the distinction between pastoral wisdom and practical discipline in a situation like this.

UPDATE:

We have moved forward with the break. Communicating it to the church and the family thy they should refrain from attending and it’s not discipline. However, based on our observations, the break is not producing healing.

The elders have been communicating with the mediator about next steps, including whether a meeting at this point would be constructive.

We genuinely desire reconciliation and for the family to return. We’re asking the mediator to help us discern the most constructive next step, with the hope that a meeting can lead to genuine progress toward biblical reconciliation.

The family has tried appealing to us directly, including an appeal to love (see Philemon 8-9) and a request for a clear biblical path forward.

[u/mike_dowler]

How can the elders instruct members to stop doing something which God has specifically commanded them to do?

If this concerns conflict between members, then they should be instructed to seek reconciliation, not just tolerance. I don’t see how removing one party from church helps that.

[u/Past-Gur9162 → u/mike_dowler]

They’re not being instructed to not attend any church just not gather with our church because we are at an impasse with them. The conflict is with the elders so it’s not like we can take a break. 

[u/eveninarmageddon → u/Past-Gur9162]

I hope this family leaves (for their sake) to a new, healthy church, and your presbytery charges the session with dereliction of duty.

Edit to add:

Since I have a strong view, allow me to explain further. There are two options here.

(1) This should be a discipline issue, but it is not a discipline issue de jure.

(2) This should not be a discipline issue.

If (1), then the session is derelict in virtue of not disciplining the members properly (due to ineptitude, cowardice, or whatever) and communicating false information, viz., that it is not a discipline issue.

If (2), then the session is derelict in virtue of effectively (even if not de jure) excommunicating the members absent proper church discipline by excluding them from the visible body.

I hope this family finds just recourse from the appropriate ecclesial authorities. If you are non-denominational, then God help them. (And I use the phrase not in vain but advisedly.)

This is the kind of thing that can push people out of church altogether for a long time. Their desire to keep attending under the session's (inept) shepherding shows profound humility on their part.

[u/No-Jicama-6523 → u/Past-Gur9162]

Which is exactly the problem.

This family seems to want to come to church. So is the problem "we see no solution to this conflict" or is it that some elders are finding seeing them at church difficult.

You insist it's not a discipline issue, but either it's conflict that cannot be resolved e.g. doctrinal disagreement (extent of this varies by denomination) or it's conflict where there needs to be a way to disagree (e.g. the colour of the curtains in the nursery).

If there is ongoing (multi-year) conflict about things that you don't need to agree on, then someone is doing something wrong. That you are so insistent it's not church discipline when deciding it is would be the straightforward route out makes me think the wrong on the side of the elders is significant.

No one is bigger than the church, anyone who thinks they are essential likely has a reality check coming. We have to be in this space, therefore you can't is bullying.

You're also putting an inappropriate burden on this family, the elders are the leadership, not them but they seem to be facing all the consequences. Are you leading in a way that truly protects the church, or in a way that protects the current elders?

[u/Thoshammer7]

Normally telling someone to abstain from corperate worship is going to do the opposite of healing, and look like it's taking sides on the occasion of dispute. This sounds like there is a dispute between two members? That makes things very tricky.

[u/lupuslibrorum]

This is a very sad situation, and I worry that your mediator has made a grave error in his counsel. I would hope you would have sought counsel from an entire elder board at a well-established, healthy church, or multiple wise pastors from different churches, who could discuss the issue together and hopefully provide a well-rounded help. It’s too easy for one outsider to offer bad advice.

The following is my opinion. I am not a pastor or elder, but I do serve on my church’s leadership board and get to listen to pastors and elders discuss all sorts of things.

I’ve read the comments on your original post and I simply don’t see any way out of the conclusion that your elder board has sinned against the family you are asking not to attend. You’ve also sinned against the entire congregation by denying them the right of fellowship with their brothers and sisters who have done nothing deserving of excommunication. Simply put, the church belongs to God, not the elders, and you must follow His house rules about who gets to attend, not make up your own.

If I’m right about this, there can be no healing until all the elders repent publicly before the whole church body as well as privately before the offended family. You also may need all elders to step down for a time and hand your church over to other elders, who will shepherd all of you during a season where you seek God’s grace and the unity of the church. And if possible, give your congregation a voice or vote in this process (consult your bylaws as well as the elders of similar churches).

I can imagine the family in question visiting my church and sharing their story of church hurt, and even if they shared it exactly as you said it, I would still think they had been treated unjustly.

I believe you mean well. I’m sorry your church is going through this. I’m praying that the Lord will work repentance and reconciliation in the lives of everyone affected, even though it will be painful.

[u/BrianP1237]

This will never end well. I've heard horror stories regarding similar situations in the OPC. It usually ends with someone leaving, and the not on good terms.

[u/Past-Gur9162 → u/BrianP1237]

were the elders the ones to direct a member to not gather with the church? what were the specifics?

[u/newBreed → u/Past-Gur9162]

Don't ask for specifics if you're not going to give specifics. You asked advice and make this post and want opinions but the nature of the disagreement/problem/situation is 100% needed for anyone to have an informed opinion.

[u/BrianP1237 → u/Past-Gur9162]

Yes 

[u/BrianP1237 → u/Past-Gur9162]

Yes, it was an estranged wife. The session told the husband he couldn't attend the morning service and forbade other elders at another OPC from giving him counsel. His wife was mentally ill. He left and went to a PCA and now I believe they are bringing charges against him. 

[u/cybersaint2k]

There's a lot of unwise application of "Boundaries"-type principles, which in themselves have problems.

This seems to be another example of that.

No, elders can't tell people to stop coming to church. It's an abrogation of their duties.

[u/Rostin → u/cybersaint2k]

I haven't been following this situation so this should not be taken as a comment on it specifically. I just want to say that I agree with what I think you're saying that popular forms of therapeutic language and concepts are doing much more harm than good these days.

[u/Onyx1509 → u/cybersaint2k]

A responsible middle ground might be to help them find another church to attend temporarily, including appraising the pastor there if the situation.

[u/No-Jicama-6523]

I thought you said a four month break was recommended? Certainly, longer than the time that has passed.

Given you acknowledged in the previous post that there was fault on both sides, it's hardly surprising that a family being excluded from church and feeling the consequences of it whilst seeing those who were also wrong face no consequences (it's the inequality that I'm highlighting, not that wrongdoing should mean consequences).

You were warned there was no biblical justification for this path. Excluded from church, denied the sacraments, no wonder they are appealing for love.

Obviously, I don't know details and I maybe have completely misassessed the situation but this one has weighed heavily on my heart, I'm torn between wanting the family to cut ties and leave before leadership hurts them further and wanting them to do the kind of thing they have done (asking for love and a biblical path is a very reasonable request), and hoping this prompts a critical review of the behaviour of the church.

[u/malachireformed]

Having been involved in this type of situation, I would advise the following:

1) you as the elders need to all self-examine and see if you sinned. While it is technically within your purview to ask a member to leave for non-disciplinary reasons, this situation was almost certainly not one of them. As other commenters have noted, this action makes it seem like you're taking sides, and effectively turns a non-disciplinary action into a disciplinary one by placing the burden to give space on one party.

Now - if on reflection you decide this interpersonal conflict has risen to the point it *should* have disciplinary action, that is a whole other can of worms.

2) (putting on the cynic's hat for a moment) you need to be working with the party that was not asked to leave and see if you got played. While yes, time apart can help heal wounds, by your own admission this is not happening. And so there needs to be a check to see if the aggrieved party was trying to drive out a member of the church. If so, this *is* a discplinary issue.

3) and being more gracious to the aggrieved party, they need to have a heart check to see if they are sinfully holding a grudge or withholding forgiveness. While this can be a hard ask depending on the nature of the hurt, the fact that your body of elders has determined this to not be a disciplinary issue suggests that the interpersonal conflict could need the aggrieved party to recognize their own sinful contributions to this situation continuing. And even if they are not holding a grudge/withholding forgiveness, there may still be shepherding issues that need your attention and care.

4) for the party asked to leave- they need to be under your care week in and out. This means being in regular worship and church activities. I would still suggest they sit far away from the aggrieved party during worship and other church activities, but the only way for you to be their shepherd is if they are with you. While being at another church may give temporary peace, it seems clear from your update that your actions have only brought them heartache.

5) pending the results of 1 (and possibly 2), you may need to acknowledge your own sins and/or failings in the situation with the party asked to leave. Be open and honest about whether you sinned either through partiality or whether you were following advice that lead you to the wrong decision (or whatever else you may identify as a fault in how the process was handled).

[u/No-Jicama-6523 → u/malachireformed]

Being completely honest (and I don't think being excessively cynical) it sounds like the institution is being protected. It's unclear if any paid staff are involved, or if it's lay elders, but I have to wonder have public apologies been made, have commitments in a positive direction been made?

If this family had been attending and causing disruption, it wouldn't be described as not a discipline issue. "You can attend as long as you behave" wasn't mentioned as having failed or being something that could work. The family appear hurt by being asked not to attend, so how exactly are the elders benefitting from them not attending? Not having to see them, not having to think about them, because if that's the reason I question if they are fit to be elders.

[u/malachireformed → u/No-Jicama-6523]

I understand the sentiment, and share some of the same concerns. However, since I don't have information beyond what is in OP's post, I feel constrained to say things the way I did, and that speculating would not be productive.

But such is also why I started with advising the elders to reflect and identify sin in their approach, and if necessary, acknowledge and apologize. We simply don't have the information needed to advise beyond that.

[u/No-Jicama-6523 → u/malachireformed]

I concede that nearly a month has passed and I may be misremembering things from the original post. I remain deeply concerned for this family and deeply concerned for the health of the church.

[u/malachireformed → u/No-Jicama-6523]

Same, brother.

[u/BlackBay41]

I really struggle to see how it's going to be a positive thing to stop someone needing help from attending the place they're meant to get help.

[u/nebular_narwhal]

I refrained from posting on your original post for a variety of reasons. I slept on it, and I still feel compelled to share my perspective on this new information, as I am incredibly disheartened.

I was on the other side of an action like this. Session took actions that were clearly not sanctioned by our church order or the scriptures (some of which were adjudicated as such), including being told not to attend. I felt there was a clear prejudice against me.

I felt I was being assailed from all sides by the very people who were called to shepherd me, care for me. This was years ago, and the pain persists.

By God's grace, I am now a member in good standing at a different church. When I have seen people from my old church, they're surprised that I didn't depart the faith. There may be dire consequences for your actions.

Obviously, I don't know all the details. As someone who has experience on the other end of this kind of action, what I see is a session who decided what they wanted and went looking for a justification. Despite being unable to find one, they went ahead anyway.

Frankly, I don't care what your mediator recommended. Your mediator won't have to give an account to God for how she or he tended his flock.

I'll conclude with this:

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!

1 Corinthians 6:1-8

[u/MrElephant20]

I really struggle to see how this question is on reddit?

If you are an elder in a reformed denomination then you have the benefit of either Presbytery or Classis to appeal to for wisdom and guidance as well as being in accord with your BCO.

Have they been appealed to yet?

[u/Automata-Omnia]

This is just sick. You have failed as Elders and are no longer meeting the qualifications to be them as set out in scripture.

The biblical path forward is a public apology to them and repentance. Then go about removing the Elder/Elders that have caused this travesty to happen.