r/ShowDogs • u/Fit_Blackberry1109 • 11d ago
Discussion/Question Working Lines in show?
okay maybe I’m the dumb one here but I saw a discussion about this online and i wanted more professional opinions on it before I open my mouth lol.
Someone I saw was very upset that they entered their WL border collie into a conformation show and was very angry that the judge did not favor their dog and called it unfair.
Their dogs structure was overall pretty good looking but the ears weren’t in standard (don’t know what the ear shape is actually named but I’ve seen some call it rooftile ears).
maybe I’m missing something here and I’m being a total idiot asking about this… but wouldnt it be obvious for the judge to favor the dogs bred to look closer to their standard rather than bred more for function over their looks?
Not to mention the stated their dog could literally be removed from their registry if the dog is to achieve a conformation championship?
Im not super educated on the border collie standard, I apologize!
Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong I really truly just wanted more educated people to guide me on this topic! I really was just curious what ‘professionals‘ might have to say!
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u/Mean-Lynx6476 11d ago
There is a lot of acrimony in the working border collie world toward breeding for conformation. The border collie breed has historically been defined by the work the dog does, not by appearance. In the working border collie world the border collie standard is the work they do. In the working border collie world there is no standard for ear carriage, or any other physical attribute. Hypothetically, a dog that looked like a poodle could be registered as a border collie if it proved it could do the work of a border collie by winning a few USBCHA trials. The person who entered their working border collie in a conformation show most likely did so to make the point that the bromide that conformation enthusiasts like to recite that “form follows function” is nonsense. The form that is rewarded in the conformation ring has nothing to do with the function of the dog.
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u/sunbear2525 11d ago
It’s my understanding that the conflict isn’t universal between all working and show lines. Several standards say that scars from work related injuries should not be penalized. It was decades ago but my grandfather’s friend bred and showed his labs, which were excellent hunting dogs in their daily lives.
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u/sleeping-dogs11 4d ago
Conformation enthusiasts are the ones saying the form follows function? How are you going to breed for form (conformation), skip any test of function, and say then form follows function?
I guess if the function is to win AKC shows, then form follows function?
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u/OceanGrownPharms 11d ago
Sounds like the exhibitor is an idiot.
Dog that most closely looks like the standard is what the judge is looking for.
It’s like going to a concours car show and the guy with the original car gets the trophy and your modified one doesn't. Then you complain that your car is faster and cooler. Ok? But they are judging the car on originality, which you knew when you entered.
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u/No-Calendar-1913 11d ago
A lot of working dog purists look down on show Border Collies for lacking the drive of traditional lines. It seems the owner expected the judge to value practical structure over looks, but entering a conformation show means playing by conformation rules.
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u/Cubsfantransplant 10d ago
I entered my working line lab in a confirmation show once when I was a twentysomething, wet behind the ears, clueless individual. I was thrilled, she was the only one in her class. She got second. The judge kindly explained to me that while she was a beautiful dog, she did not meet Akc standards for a lab. I thanked her kindly and went back to loving her as the wonderful family dog she was.
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u/screamlikekorbin 11d ago
I’m curious how that would even work… typically WL BC’s have a different registry and wouldn’t be AKC registered. Is the show a different organization?
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u/No_Proposal3086 10d ago
A lot of people will register their abca dogs with AKC to do sports
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u/screamlikekorbin 10d ago
Would that not be PAL? Or does akc allow full reg from abca?
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u/prshaw2u 10d ago
AKC allows dual/multiple registrations, as long as the dog is AKC registered they are good. The dog would need a full AKC registration to show in conformation but that is independent of any other registrations.
Is it ABCA that for a while would not accept dogs that had an AKC championship? Seems like there was some breed that did that but has slowly backed away from it. Vague memory since it was not one of my breeds and didn't affect me.
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u/Mean-Lynx6476 10d ago
ABCA would not accept any AKC champion for registration, and would revoke the registration of any AKC champion. I haven’t heard that they have backed away from this policy, but I don’t pay much attention to ABCA beyond sending in my own dog’s registration, so that may well have happened. It seems like it would be a pretty hard policy to enforce at any rate.
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u/No_Proposal3086 10d ago
AKC allows full registration from abca. Border collies are one of the few fully AKC recognized breeds with an open studbook still
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u/Prestigious-Seal8866 10d ago
They weren’t favored because they weren’t the best dog in the ring according to the judge. Period. The end.
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u/No_Proposal3086 10d ago
There’s a lot of nuance when it comes to conformation with border collies. We have a fairly broad standard in the us and it leaves a lot up to interpretation, personal preference, etc. if the working line dog had a good front, rear, balanced movement, and kept its head and tail down it should do well in the ring. Unfortunately a lot of ‘working lines’ you see people showing aren’t actually working lines and are byb, many lack type all around (are square, move with a high head, tail curling over their back). Part of it could be the handler being new to showing and not showcasing the dog to actually show its virtues. Part of it could be judges preference. If you don’t know the standard you can’t actually say if the dog was to standard.
I have a mostly show line dog, he just lost 2 days in a row to his mostly working line uncle. My boy is lovely, but was being a brat and his front isn’t as nice as his uncles. The judges awarded the nicer dog on that day, as they should.
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u/YumYumRabbitsBum 10d ago
That’s the great thing about dog shows is that it’s one Judges opinion! So enter your pet quality pup, or your “working line” pup.
I say it’s the best dog on the day, and you honestly never know.
You can’t argue and all the competitors can do is squark on FB, Twitter or Reddit about waahhhh unfair my dogs the best, blahh blah blah.. who cares, let them rant like nutters.. the Judge made their call. They just got their feeling hurt and haven’t learned to accept life does not always hand you everything you think you deserve. They gotta grow up, and develop some thicker skin if they want to survive the dog confirmation world.
I think it’s so funny sometimes as most conformation dogs especially sporting and working/ utility breeds could look terrible if they attempted to compete in their trails or events, but throw a working line dog in the confirmation ring and they have a much better chance at placing with minimal training 😂.
I know it’s gonna rile some peeps up, but it’s said slightly tongue in cheek, but it’s also slightly true 😜
I’d say you do you, a dog can cross the line from working line to confirmation and in reality that’s what you want! A gorgeous representation of the breed that can actually function and do the job they were bred for!
Whoop! 🙌 if you have one ❣️
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u/sleeping-dogs11 4d ago
I have working line gsds. I would expect them to do very poorly at akc shows.
I would argue my dogs more closely adhere to the written standard for the German shepherd than most akc show line dogs, in conformation as well as temperament and working ability.
However, their conformation does not meet the modern (imo exaggerated) interpretation of the written standard.
One could argue that my interpretation is wrong, and the modern akc CH dogs are the correct interpretation. But modern akc CH dogs also don’t look like CH dogs from 60 years ago, so there has undeniably been a shift in what is rewarded in the ring.
I’m not a border collie person, but my understanding is there is a similar breed split between working line and show line collies.
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u/GiraffeyManatee 11d ago edited 11d ago
A conformation judge has one duty only – to select the dog that most closely adheres to the written standard. Each breed’s standard is developed by that breed’s governing body. A judge should never deviate from that written standard in their selections. He or she should not ignore major faults like incorrect ear carriage even if they personally prefer something different.