But historically their protests have gotten more done than American protests whether peaceful or not. France has a good reputation for having both actually. Their farmers protested peacefully and it made a difference. Look where the US is now.
Yes, but I’d like to add that some what paradoxically that’s a problem. They have an unsustainable pension system that the country’s economists agree is driving the country into unsustainable debt and when there’s some kind of attempt to to reform the French lose their minds. Now the literal IMF is telling the French to, “Get their house in order” a statement that you’d think would be reserved for developing nations, which are the ones who usually get attention from the IMF. Personally, I admire the French in their ability to spark a true protest with a voice to contend with, but in this case it may be to the detriment of the French people, sadly.
The pension system is a mess to change because it was basically built like a generational ponzy scheme. To reform it means that whatever generation living through the reform gets fucked, hence why there's so much resistance to any change...
All of the Pay-as-you-go pension systems are in this position. Very short-sighted politicians. We all need a system like Australia's "Superannuation" system. Self funded retirement plans
Governments created the issue, I didn't see any politicians resigning the second they realized this is broken. They kept cashing in their monthly checks and benefits, yeah? Good. Now they must fix it. If not, it's prison time and confiscation of their property.
When one takes over a political office, he/she must assume full responsibility too.
People voted in the government, demanded excess spending, protested and the government conceded. It’s the people who determine policy in a democracy like France.
Come on! You KNOW our systems are not truly democratic, with right wing propaganda all the time on TV paid by billionaires, some parts of the society kept away from doing politics and only the wealthy being able to run for office.
There is hardly anything more pathetic than a population in a democracy unwilling to take responsibility for the consequences of their own choices and their own vote, infantilising themselves the moment their actions go wrong. Genuinely undeserving of democracy.
Oh and btw. the entire left opposes the needed rent reforms as well. This is a universal position in France across both sides.
The French have been living on borrowed money for 25 years and nobody will risk lending to them any more, even at a high interest rate. Unless France do what Italy just did (drastically cut public spending, which means pension cuts) even the IMF will not risk loaning them the money. So reduce spending or imminently be unable to pay any pensions at all… and in the interim the cost of servicing the existing national debt will skyrocket as the interest rates for existing debt rapidly rise. France will be the new Greece of 2015, where you can’t even take your own money out of the bank. Blaming the IMF is easy, but they only become relevant when Governments have rolled over to the popular (unaffordable) option for so long that they are now 100% out of options. The real question is how much damage France causes to the wider more responsible EU through their irresponsible unwillingness to spend within their means.
Here's the thing, the IMF isn't a boss that justs tell countries what to do. They are a lender. A lender of last resort for countries who can't get anyone else go lend to them, at that.
Lenders like it when the people they lend money to can pay it back. Cutting spending does that.
It's like the bank telling you that they won't give you a loan because you have three expensive luxury cars that you are already making payments on.
Most of the time, but when debt gets high enough and the leading cause is excess spending then it is the only way. In the case of France some form of reduced spending will have to be done according to most economists even if we factor in increased taxes on the wealthy. I think austerity, understandably, has gotten a terrible reputation as it’s been wielded with impunity in the past, but that doesn’t change the fact that it can be a legitimate measure.
I think all of you are severely underestimating what continued austerity measures are going to do to the social fabric of these societies. You can't cut services ina vacuum - eventually people are going to start lighting your cities on fire and it's going to be even more expensive to restore order. You can, actually, tax the rich and the corps into submission without destroying public infrastructure and there are countries you're not allowed to look up to who do it
If your talking about China then, your point is already mute as they became the economic power house they are today by implementing state capitalism and allowing the private accumulation of wealth (eg. They created rich people).
If your talking about Cuba or North Korea, I would describe either of them as stunning success.
While I will give Cuba more credit as a (somehow (semi-)) functional state. Both its standard of living, and its overall sociatal progression aren't stellar.
And that is without beginning to mention the state authoritarianism rife throughout China and North Korea; the human rights violations, the extream poverty and hunger present in both countries, and the overall invasive supervision and criminalisation of the most basic political rights alongside a punitive penal system.
They are not countries I would like to emulate.
And futher, while unchecked and/or badly managed austerity can most certainly ruin a country as well. Just taxing people and corporations into "submission" doesn't actually work.
There is only so much the wealthy and the corporations will take before they decide its more profitable to cease business all together and remove what assets possible overseas to more favorable states. (cough BP Oil in the North Sea)
So the real solution is more likely a combination of modest tax hikes with a calculated reduction on social spending.
But that is a decision no politician is going to take, because that's how you loose the next election.
The IMF are vultures pressuring France to implement failed austerity measures to keep the population destitute and the bankers they serve wealthy. It's no coincidence the language got tougher when the protests kicked off; it's a warning from the ruling class.
We don't get mad whenever the government tries to reform the pension system : we get mad because they always want us to work more for weaker pensions. Nobody here wants to die working. Our country has debts accumulated by 80 years of capitalism. Ok. Maybe we'll just go socialist and not pay it all back. Why wouldn't we try?
We Americans just need to straight up stop feeding into the system that's screwing us. Doing marches and holding up signs doesn't do shit.
Truckers, railroad workers, port workers, and warehouse workers need to go on strike. This will absolutely fuck the system if there is no economy flowing through. The big corpos will have to come to the table then, because we all know the big corpos and "our greatest ally" are really the ones in charge.
Our politicians are too beholden to them, it doesn't matter who you vote the fuck in. There's too much money being thrown around. We the people have the power to just halt everything. We then need to also support those on strike who are out of work. It just sucks knowing how divided we are now. Everyday the media pushes out a new story to divide us by race, gender, religion, etc. Your neighbor is not your enemy.
We are supposed to be the well organized ones that they are afraid of. Unfortunately the method of divide and conquer wasn't just a saying and it actually works.
Problem is everyone thinks the politician that matches their favorite color is on their side when that couldn't be further from the truth. IDC if your republican or democrat not a single damn politician cares about the common folk or working class because none of them are in those classes. Everything they campaign for is just to get your votes so that once they are in office they can expand their portfolios and networth.
Politicians dont make jack yet somehow always come out making lots more whether through lobbying deals, insider trading and so on.
But the mentality is always the same so nothing will ever change. People keep falling for the same lies again and again and refuse to do their own independent research and just blindly trust their favorite influencer, celebrity, or biased news source.
I had a dim ass view of people in general before this, but this shit's soooo goddamn obvious and yet 95% of the population is so painfully stupid they can't see the truth. I don't understand anymore.
Lol I made a similar comment else where about what is next, repping their colors and throwing up political hand signs at each other in public. Its bad that it has been pushed that far to where jokes like that can even be made now.
So you thinking picking the best candidate on your own research is stupid? You think politicians are your best buddy? You think a rich "democrat" gives a damn about your social programs before their portfolio? Your the one who needs a reality check.
Yeah it's stupid. It's the same old tired trope of "both sides are the same" and "all politicians are corrupt", the kind of hard-hitting political wisdom you hear at bars and gas stations for free. Completely ignorant of history, and actual reality. Actually do your research, and you'll see things a bit clearer and you'll stop having to repeat populist talking points.
I agree wholeheartedly, but the main issue I think is fuels. At this point, we need them to live. People need gas to go to work, people need power for their homes and hospitals, etc. Where is the viable, affordable, attainable alternative? We can't just stay home and not work, not take our kids to school. I am wondering how we can overcome that one burden in particular as the market is pretty much cornered there.
Organize your local community and help get them prepared. Part of why this doesn't Happen in America is cause it doesn't happen overnight. You need infrastructure. Mutual aid. Ways to keep people above water to out last them. One day more is all we need.
People are less willing to go on strike when yours and your families health care is tied to your job — jeopardize your job, and risk your family’s health. The system was setup that way for a reason.
I think France is able to do these things because they didnt silently settle into a police state. If this took place in the US, they would execute all of them and conservative trash people would pretend like it was deserved.
The average American is not well enough equipped to handle your proposed scenario. People here lose their shit if their Amazon package is delivered a day late. I couldn't imagine if there was no fuel, food, water, or essential supplies for a single day. It would be utter chaos.
This is why the government and media works so hard to convince Americans that someone in a red hat, blue shirt, different skin is their enemy. The enormous divide stops the people from joining together and enacting any real change.
I Always wonder what the American police would do against protesters in the old continent be like France or Genova 20 years ago. Probably kill everyone in sight
Strike? Most of the workers you mentioned aren't in a union. They can't go on strike. They'll just get fired. Which is why most don't do it.
Hell, even in my union it's actually against contract for me to go on strike. Some older union guys approved that years ago in return for something extra in their retirement accounts. Another classic example of old union dudes fucking over the next generation. The clause basically states anyone doing "essential" work cannot legally strike by terms set in union contract. Well, I work in HVAC so basically all our work is "essential" so if we strike the union won't have our backs.
If that's how it is with me, what chance you think your average warehouse worker has?
Any candidate who can make a difference is stonewalled by all the scum who are in the pockets of the money men. It’s not politicians who make a difference right now, it’s the dudes they’re beholden too actually calling the shots
Famers did it peacefully? Haha what a lie. They did vendalise a bunch of stuff. The only difference is the police response ordered by the government. Why? Because they have a better nuisance value with there equipment, they are scaring them. Also they mostly vote to the right. So they want to keep them on their side.
The violent mobs are often a result of the failure of the democratic process; people rarely riot for sport
Any history book would cover this well enough
Edit: Jan 6th gets hate because it was an attempted subversion of the democratic where people die. Was more than broken windows and angry constituents.
What was the failure of the democratic process? Why aren't they initiating a national referendum by getting the signatures, if it is such an overwhelmingly popular issue?
Are you talking about Jan 6th? Because that was about a bunch of morons spurred on by the outgoing president and his party
Or the French? I am positive that riots are over the cost of living and decay of public educational institutions amidst political stagnation (e.g. the powers that be are doing nothing to actively help alleviate the populace’s concerns, thus protests and riots). But I’m not an expert of French politics.
That's not true, a lot of other countries are making actual sensible reforms.
Why don't super welfare centric countries like Denmark and Norway even think that 62yo retirement age is sustainable and would lead to financial black hole? In fact Denmark already has legislated further increase in 2040..
France pension system is not that much in the red, in 2025, it was 5.8 billions in debt (mostly due to the public service), but the complementary had a small excess of money, there is also still 90 billions of 'reserve' from when the system had excess.
In comparison, Macron cut taxes by 76 billions a year, a good part were for the richest families.
The government also give 160 billions euros in tax cut or incentives for private company each year without any overview on if it really help keep jobs or is really used to invest in France.
Yes, we need to change the pension system slightly to have a smaller deficit, but what need to be done is mostly to freeze the pension for a few years (but to keep increasing the minimum to follow inflation rates). We already need 43 years to have a full pension, it means most people will not retire before 65-68 years in the near future. Macron's government reform of pension system was shit and was only for future retiree, which help nothing with the 5.8 billions deficit of today.
Basically, there is a constitutional provision that allows the government to bypass any voting on finance laws. This provision has been massively abused for more than a decade now, and the simple mention of 49.3 breeds hate in many French minds.
Basically, none of the finance laws of the last decade followed the normal democratic process
And a referendum to change the constitution to prevent the government from doing just that in the future is one of the main demand of the major left party
Because it was prompted and led by fascist paramilitaries, utilizing the mass participation of people riled up with lies about the election, culture war bullshit and incoherent goals. A bunch of angry strongman bullshit that jumped the shark and inherently would make a more justly aimed attempt far less viable.
I didn’t clutch my pearls at the idea of an attempted overthrow of an ineffective and corrupt government, but it was clear to any willing to see that the cadre in charge would rather hang the people than find them better represented. Especially after the several prior months of the same groups mobilizing to DC to attack BLM demonstrators.
What's in the ineffective and undesirable government is in the eye of the beholder. They thought that Biden was that and wanted to overthrow him, why is it wrong when they do it?
They were sold a lie of a stolen election. They were acting on many derisions of their fellow Americans that have been propagated to serve wealthy parties.
Trump is not a more effective or desirable leader, he just sold people on that and played on their sycophantic tendencies towards projections of strength and tradition.
This action was the culmination of an upswell of white nationalist organizing over the course of Trump’s first term (and slightly preceding). It was led by people who were core to that, or sought to ride the momentum.
Jan 6 was a racist violent mob. Today's french protests are anti racist and anti fascist.
The government and their cops are the most violent and dangerous violent mob.
Because you can vote for the one that will fuck you in the ass doesn't make it a democracy.
France isn't a democracy. When you have a President and his government that can force laws to be passed against the vote of the parliament you're not in a democracy anymore.
When your people's only way to be heard is to riot, you're not in a democracy anymore
You're shifting the goal posts. Not what I'm talking about.
Macron used the 49.3 28 times. It allows him to overrun the parliament vote to pass a law. Does that sound like a democracy to you?
Macron dissolved the government which lead to LFI winning the legislative vote. The people said they wanted a left majority government which traditionally means the leading force can chose its Prime Minister. Did Macron do that? No.
No its not. It's because of what you see in the TV. Don't be fooled by the media. I know absolutely nobody who would vote for the far right party. Or far left for that matter. They're all in support of the education system and all want a better infrastructure/life/pay for the teachers. It's been know for a long timz that they're all eating dust. If there is something to learn, it's definitely to NOT copy the US education system.
Ne pas écouter les sondages, il y a 2 partis "racistes " en france , 12 autres partis en Face , les 12 réunissent bien plus de monde . Juste que les racistes votent pour le racisme ...
BLM protests, Vietnam War protests, Civil Rights Marches, marches for LGTBQ+ rights and the AIDS crisis. Their are dozens of examples of peaceful American movements making a difference.
The thing is your protests needs to actually have a meaningful goal unlike these protests or lets say Occupy Wallstreet which suffered from lack of focus.
We have militarized police in America that can (and do) use lethal force on us when we try to do things like this. I don’t see that happening in this video.
Plus our healthcare is dependent on our employment. And in every state but Montana you can be fired instantly with no reason. So if your boss learns you've been protesting and doesn't like it.. congrats, now you have no job and you and your kids have no health coverage.
The farmers are not peaceful at all. They even used an explosive in a public building, that's why its extremely effective and the cops never attack them back.
You are right except for the last part. The farmers are NOT protesting peacefully but their protests are seen as "more legitimate" so the gouvernement tolerate it more and the media doesn't portray them as bad as the student protests.
You guys abroad need to be aware of the fact that the protests are peaceful for the most part, it goes wrong when the police attack people chanting and dancing
They were throwing tons of shit on public buildings and even set one on fire. The only difference is that this time the government didn't send the police (the farmers aren't fucking around with their trucks, but this movement was also reappropriated by big corporation lobbies like FNSEA to push their anti-regulation agenda... Nothing too far fetch from macron's policy
our farmer did break a bunch of stuff and dump manure on official buidings. The only reason it's considered peaceful is that the police let them do their thing instead of breaking out the tear gas.
The violence here is largely the result of government escalation via violent police repression.
Where have all their protests gotten them? To a social and economic system that is objectively non functional. Not likely Le Pen or the communist will fix things either.
Historically yes, now I’m not so sure. It feels like we’re fighting against ourselves when we’re trying to blindly preserve a system that is obviously not working, or even worse, trying to compromise it even more.
Eh, the French are one protest away from Le Pen being elected, that's hardly a badge of honor. Further, they are fading into economic irrelevancy both in Europe and certainly on the global stage. The US, despite its political problems are still the global economic powerhouse.
Also didn’t work for the raising of the retirement age. When it comes to money related issues, peaceful protests, violent protest, riots , revolutions they don’t really ever address the issue.
The only solutions are ever raise taxes, cut services, or print money.
And also most no one who is doing the protests ever want to do any of these things.
Yeah let's approve this way of protests, you realize half of these people are just using the protest as a situation to destroy and loot stuff right? And even if they are "protesting" where do you think it stops if we'd accept this primal behaviour?
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u/penguindreams 5h ago
But historically their protests have gotten more done than American protests whether peaceful or not. France has a good reputation for having both actually. Their farmers protested peacefully and it made a difference. Look where the US is now.