r/Snorkblot • • 11h ago

Controversy I'll worry about that later. Like Inigo.

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11.1k Upvotes

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u/betsylang 11h ago

Yeah. I try to explain to my parents that by not literally fighting against the first hint of fascism is how we got here in the US. But nooooo. "Non violent protest is the only ethical protest".

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u/-Chelo 11h ago

Non violent protest gets you nowhere.  Nowhere at any point in history were rights freely given and maintained. They are always fought for and maintained in bloodshed. 

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u/betsylang 11h ago

Exactly. The Black Panthers saved lives. I love MLK jr but I would never have let some Cleatus spit on someone's face. And it didnt do shit.

It wasnt until Malcolm X and MLK Jr worked together that we got the Equal rights movement.

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u/-Chelo 10h ago

Oo speaking of the Black Panthers, there's a very rousing movie called Judas and the Black Messiah.  Not an exact line quote but I loved it and I only seen it once so may be inaccurate, "we do not take liberties with our sisters. That is not just your sister, but your sister-in-arms. Now drop and give me 20!"

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u/DrQuantum 8h ago

Specifically in his Birmingham jail letter MLK alludes to Malcom X. Its a call on the white leaders to do its the easy way or the hard way lol. Even MLK was not blind to how the threat of violence made the path of peace more viable.

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u/travman064 7h ago

And it didnt do shit.

It absolutely did, though.

The civil rights act was not passed because people were afraid. The civil rights act was passed because 'liberal enough' politicians were elected by people who wanted a civil rights act to be passed.

This picture did more to achieve that goal than ANY act of violence. The whole point of these peaceful protests was to get that picture and plaster it onto the front of every newspaper in every major city where people sympathetic to their cause would see it and feel that political action was required.

If White supremacists marched through your streets demanding racist policies, would you go and vote for someone to enact those policies?

If white supremacists started threatening you with violence if those policies weren't passed, would you go and support those policies to stop the violence?

OR would you want to crack down hard on the white supremacists? Would you favor policies barring them from being in your city? Would you favor rules and regulations restricting the rights of white supremacists?

This idea that Malcolm X was the stick needed to scare people into supporting a civil rights movement is unfounded. When you scare people, they will oppose your movement, not support it. If you say 'give me what I want or the city burns,' the people living in that city will say 'we want more police, we want the military in our city, we want curfews, rules, regulations, less rights, we need to stop that person!' Studies show that cities that experienced race riots pivoted MUCH harder to Nixon in the next election. When people don't feel safe, they vote for the person promising safety, not the person promising compromise.

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u/RedditOfUnusualSize 6h ago

Yes and no. It's important to remember that non-violence is not an end in itself. It is a tactic to be used in an ideological battle against an unjust system of government. The goal of that non-violent resistance is to highlight the injustice of the system by making that system continuously, repeatedly, and consistently reveal itself to be a bully that punches down on people who very clearly and visibly aren't fighting back, and are very clearly adhering to any reasonable interpretation of lawful behavior.

But it is merely a tactic. Just as no one in their right mind would suggest that GIs should have stormed the beachhead of Normandy armed only with harsh language, no one would suggest that violence cannot and should not be used in cases where no one can see what the unjust system is doing, and no one with power cares how they are perceived. If non-violence had been attempted in Bleeding Kansas, for instance, Kansas would have unequivocally become a slave state; the Slave Power wanted to maintain control in the Senate, and maintaining those votes mattered more to them than looking good in the eyes of Northerners.

The question of whether or not lines between the civil rights movement and Bleeding Kansas have been crossed is a question I'm neither qualified nor prepared to answer. I'd guess not, but I'm not really in charge of that decision, and I doubt my ability to wisely make it, if we're being honest. Regardless, while you are absolutely correct that the non-violent tactics of the CRM won the day, there were a lot of historically-contingent facts going into that assessment that no longer hold true. Elites in America had to be use a gentle hand in the 1960s, because a) there was an entire international communist movement out there who were using the nightly videos of Americans being attacked by their own police to push back on American propaganda, that their language that they were the land of the free and home of the brave was nothing but capitalist agitprop, and b) that international movement would have started a fifth column within the United States in a heartbeat.

Neither of those considerations is true today. As a result, elites today are, from a purely realpolitik perspective, a lot more brazen about not needing popular support than they used to be. Which is a rational calculation when international avenues of support for American workers against their governments no longer exist as a viable threat.

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u/travman064 5h ago

Your examples of violence are apt. Those are not protests. Those are battles where your goal is to kill your opposition or beat them into submission.

Yes, an invasion in war is violence. They arent trying to reason with the nazis, the goal is to kill the nazis. In bleeding Kansas, again it was violence as a means of trying to force through legislation through intimidation. It only works if you overpower the state, which the pro-slavery side could not.

If the goal is to change public opinion, votes, and get legislation passed, then violent protest is not effective. It is not the foil to non-violent protest. The civil rights act was passed in spite of violent protest, not because of it.

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u/Dr_SlapsMD 10h ago

NOT ONCE EVER!

And violence isn't limited to physical. There's also financial violence via strict boycotts uncompromising strikes.

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u/-Chelo 10h ago

This true too. But people wouldn't be organized like this enough to make an impact in the US. Plus, unfortunately I think what they're trying to do in the US is less about money and more about consolidation of power. Frankly I think we're smoked but there's hope in splintering off into your own self sufficient communities under truly equitable principles.

If we can show others that it is possible for the community to care for itself, we don't have to ask permission to be sheltered, fed, clothed, take up space, to work, to get the medical care we need... Maybe more people would see it and join in. Because it's an investment into the community to make sure everyone is healthy and happy and not about profit. 

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u/betsylang 9h ago

I genuinely believe the usa is geographically too big. Its why protests are so hard bc there's little risk of the populace physically meeting up.

Also our entire country was designed to keep people from rising up like France. Without universal health care those who can protest can only do so on weekends when the Ptb are at home. And if/when youre arrested youll lose your job bc of no call no show, the financial burden is insane and thats best case scenario. fed charges, permanent disability from police violence, even Death have all happened bc of the brutal Crack downs. Shit a guy with pamphlets was sebyence to 30years.

Add on the pacifist boomer bs and no one can fight back.

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u/dirtygrandpa 7h ago

The geographic point is a good one, there's so much variety across that nation that it's hard to find a unifying message that you all feel invested enough in.

Beyond that though, all of those other things you listed out - those are the first fights. Your country was designed, but that's not a 'set and forget' process. The shape of a country needs to be iterated, again and again. It requires constant management by engaged voters. But until you sort out things like the healthcare situation + basic job protection, you're not gonna get that because everyone is too busy on the grind. America is still young though, it feels like this it finally going through puberty.

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u/-Chelo 9h ago

Yep. This. We don't have adequate protections and our protests wouldn't be concentrated enough to even establish adequate protections for protesters.

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u/Arek_PL 10h ago edited 10h ago

The protests against communism in Poland and Germany were peaceful, berlin wall fell, did it not?

Ofc. not denying that there was bloodshed, but it was the regime that used force

Oh, and around 10 years ago we had ACTA protests that also were not violent

edit: i guess i could also point at protests on ukraine against the pro russian regime... but it started a civil war with pro russian separatists and the russian themselves moved in to annex crimea and 10 years later there is war

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u/AdmiralStuff 10h ago

Taiwan’s transition to democracy was largely bloodless

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u/-Chelo 10h ago

I'd have to look into this and what factors played into it, and exactly how "democratic" Taiwan became and has remained. 

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u/AdmiralStuff 10h ago

A combination of pro democracy protests plus a government sympathetic to democratic reforms led to a democratic government. Taiwan is one of the few countries in the world where democracy scores have increased over the last ten years.

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u/ROBOTNIXONSHEAD 6h ago

The KMT's long term justification for rule was always to enact Sun Yat-sen's policy of 'tutelage of the people' - that is, that originally Sun back in 1911 had said that he wanted China to be a democracy but at that time, like 90 percent of people were illiterate with no schooling, nor understanding of basic politics. Sun said (and you can certainly argue with this), that until people were reasonably educated and had their basic needs met, an educated elite (the KMT) needed to rule.

By the late 1970s when the process of democratization began, Taiwan was a reasonably prosperous and increasingly educated society, so it was increasingly hard for the KMTs hardliners to resist calls for democracy.

There's load of other aspects of it, but a root cause of the fairly peaceful transition to democracy in Taiwan was that authoritarian rule was built into the constitution as a temporary measure.

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u/wellthatdoesit 8h ago

Yep. Non-violent protesting is fine for things like boycotting businesses or things where the consequences of the protest failing wouldn’t be catastrophic

We have enough evidence of fascism throughout the last century to know what happens if it is allowed to gain a foothold

I do believe however that the first protest can be peaceful if used as an opportunity for community building and alignment of goals. From there, force and violence are the only languages that fascism understands

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u/-Chelo 8h ago

It's unfortunate because you have to settle with that fact that there are just genuinely evil people out there that there's no helping, they absolutely want to see others hurt and dead on the basis of maintaining their own status and power. People that get gratification from causing suffering to others that don't deserve it. They don't answer to reason and kindness. 

https://youtu.be/5BgqObz74Uk?is=XhNpXwkm-tw4RMq2

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u/ProfessorPrudent2822 4h ago

We also have plenty of evidence that communists are just as dangerous as fascists. If you want to stage an insurrection, you need the support of the people, because otherwise, they will cheer for the military to crush you and use your violence to justify your suppression.

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u/MagnumMia 8h ago

Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania had the Singing Revolution in the late 80s early 90s.

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u/Glittering_Win_5085 6h ago

Don't talk about what has and hasn't happened when you don't know the first thing about Indian independence.

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u/KalterBlut 6h ago

Révolution tranquille in Québec where we kicked out the church from our public institutions (government, school, hospital, etc).

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u/mushu_beardie 4h ago

Except for marijuana legalization, but even that was begrudgingly given.

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u/AmericanCitizenry 11h ago

For non violent protest to truly work, you need a huge chunk of the population.

Non violent protest against NAZIS better be in the dozens of millions...

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u/betsylang 11h ago

With Billy clubs and cricket bats.

Punks know. You let one Nazi in and youre a nazi bar. You keep mum bc you dont want to "lose fans" and then youre a gd Nazi band.

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u/TwoBionicknees 9h ago

when the other side can show up and turn any protest a violent one, it doesn't work with any number of people. BLM was like 99% non violent and the ones that turned violent was 99% of the time cops turning up and starting violence. Also you see videos of undercover cops who start smashing shit or throw the first bottle giving cops the excuse to run in and start smacking people around.

How much less harm would there be in the world if people protested like Luigi did and the elite class didn't exist and any future 'elite' were too scared of being corrupt and evil to hoard their wealth the same way?

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u/PixelBrewery 9h ago

I always come back to this Dan Harmon rant. He called it out ten years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI0poHwpscc&t=2s

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u/awdophil 7h ago

Off with their heads!

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u/schnozzberryflop 11h ago

Sometimes violence is the correct answer.

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u/TheIllusiveScotsman 10h ago

Violence is never the answer.

Violence is the question and the answer is, at times, yes.

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u/PsyOpBunnyHop 8h ago

There are some mighty deserving folks out there.

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u/Neidron 9h ago

It's not an answer. But sometimes it is a question.

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u/Leon_Flux 8h ago

Black adam is a shit movie, but the message is spot on.

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u/goyafrau 7h ago

Sometimes it is.

Usually when sometimes thinks this is such a time, and they're the one to mete out the violence, they're wrong.

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u/Scarredhard 11h ago

This is what people always get wrong and I try to explain to people irl. Action, strength, fighting, anger, those don’t have to be inherently evil. They can be very good things when used against actual evil, against entities that want to ruin as much peace in the world for selfish reasons

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u/azmarteal 1h ago

The problem with that logic begins when you realise that "good/evil" don't exist, and both parties use the same logic to call their opponent evil.

The solution to the problem is way simpler — stop using kindergarten non-existent assumptions like "good" or "evil" — and just do what you think is right, whether you are using the same methods or not. Just be honest with yourself.

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u/bognostrocleetus 10h ago

Agree, I just can't stand that word. The problem with fighting "evil", is it's so easy to change the definition of what evil means. Depending on who you listen to, one day a murderous despot, the next it's the Smurfs, Gays, Witches, and the next it's just being a Democrat.

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u/Alypius754 3h ago

Visit virtually any sub on Reddit and you'll find "Republican" to be synonymous with "evil"

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u/Jaffacakes-and-Jesus 11h ago

Endlessly fascinated by people's ability to reference the Reign of Terror as a positive example of revenge when we know how it ended.

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u/CautionarySnail 11h ago

This. Once heads start rolling, throughout history, the tendency is to double down and reduce what it takes to qualify to be one of the heads that is rolling. People become opportunistic and see chances to remove others they perceive as obstacles. It's why due process is so damn important; it reduces the chances of bad actors directing a mob, or a mob simply going out of control in its anger.

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u/DangerousQuestions1 11h ago

Maybe if due process would do its job and hold leaders accountable then.chopping wouldn't be needed

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u/AmericanCitizenry 11h ago

When all peaceful options are off the table, the only thing left...

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u/JustLookingForMayhem 10h ago

There is also the other side of the problem. If not enough of the actually bad people are handled, they end up going back to work and organizing again. The roots of most far right and alt right parties in Germany are the Nazis released from prison due to needing them to run the bureaucracy. Due process is important, but sometimes the standards end up too high and people who really should have been imprisoned for life or executed get off in large enough numbers to organize a second time.

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u/Flight_of_Elpenor 5h ago

I thought they were also released to be a barrier against the Soviets and to build rockets.

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u/JustLookingForMayhem 5h ago

No, those Nazis (and some of them were not actually German by birth and were instead scientists who were kidnapped by the Nazis first) were taken by the Allies to there own countries. The idea that the Nazis were released because of the Cold War is a bit flawed, mainly because there was already half a country and buffer countries in the way. Both sides did it, mainly because they couldn't be bothered to run Germany in the middle of the Cold War.

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u/jlzania 11h ago

Yes! Yes! Yes!
People I think should know better love to use the French Revolution as shining example of a successful regime change and I ask them what part they like most, the Reign of Terror or the rise of Napoleon and his wars.
France lost approximately an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 in combat alone.

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u/TheZipding 11h ago

Back in high school I made a presentation on whether or not the French Revolution succeeded. I argued it didn't because it led to the rise of Napoleon and a perversion of what the original goals were.

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u/Raise_A_Thoth 10h ago

Do you think French Revolutionary history ended with Napoleon?

Revolutions are messy and complicated. Napoleon took advantage of power vacuums left by the first revolution. Then the exiled Bourbon family regrouped and consolidated around those royal to their family, eventually restoring the monarchy with Louis XVIII. Louis was a regressive ultra-monarchist who rolled back republican progress, censored the press, reduced civil rights, and even strengthened land holding rights for the prior feudal lords to the loss of the bond-holding "middle class" at the time.

This led to more unrest, the July Revolution (1830) and eventually the February Revolution (1848), leading to the Second French Republic.

But oh yes there was Napoleon III who, two years later, declared France yet another empire. But they weren't done yet!

After the failure in the Franco-Prussian war, France become a Republic once again, governing until the government fell to the Nazis in WW2.

Power tends to swing a bit like a pendulum, but each "return" swing comes with new, unique historic contexts. As people learn from the conflicts and failures, they can shift the overall trend, and that's what the French did.

Similar struggles happened with Cuba, while Spain and the US consistently interfered with their attempts to gain freedom from their imperial rulers, they had to go through many rounds of revolution, and they're still under embargo and sanctions to this day.

It is inaccurate to judge the efforts and goals of the first French Revolution as misguided, pointless violence, or failures in a vacuum.

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u/jlzania 9h ago

No I don't think that French history ended with Napoleon and yes I do know that as you so succinctly wrote " Revolutions are messy and complicated."

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u/practicalm 11h ago

The corporations are already doing things to kill people. Denying medical claims, polluting the environment, and more. The violence has already started.

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u/ConsiderationTrue477 11h ago

The complication is that it's rare that violence is so carefully targeted that there is no collateral damage to innocent bystanders or spread to people of less and less culpability.

It requires tremendous self-control on behalf of a movement to target the right people and only the right people. We see this with internet vigilantism--some random person with the same name will get doxxed and harassed. Even if the real target deserves it, things can spiral fast.

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u/geschiedenisnerd 11h ago

The ideas that you should not do to your enemy what you would condemn them for and shouldn't do unnecessary violence (read: vengeance) spread in the wake of massive civil wars that twisted good ideas (english civil war, french revolution, russian revolution, to name a few). They were not made up by "the bad guys", because no one draws parallels between themselves and evil in their own works in the first place.

If you want a suspicious trope in moral fiction, look at the "don't play god" as a standard reason for the villain being evil

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u/w021wjs 10h ago

I think there's a complicated level of morality here. To use real world examples: The einsatzgruppen in WWII murdering civilians in cold blood? Absolutely reprehensible, should be tried and hung or thrown in jail and throw away the key. The allied troops murdering concentration camp guards in cold blood OR the prisoners doing the murdering upon liberation? I get it.

Both are wrong. Both are extrajudicial killings committed by a military force with little to no real oversight. But the context around the allied one makes me go, "yup, that's morally wrong, but also those guys they killed are among the worst people in human history, commiting one of the worst crimes man has ever invented, so I understand."

Now obviously there's more to it than that. The SS guys were acting on orders, which (to me) makes it a whole hell of a lot worse, while the allied troops were reacting to a systemic genocide in real time, but no comparison is ever truly 1:1.

I think the real trick is that the problem with retributive justice is that it's not applied evenly, fairly or even to the correct person. The number of false positives makes the whole system a wash in my eyes, and really makes for terrible situations. The number of lynchings or race riots started because of a bold faced lie about a minirity are astounding.

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u/Waste-Dragonfruit229 10h ago

And this sounds like the exact same argument Hitler used to go after Jewish people and Stalin used to go after political dissenters, and Putin used to go after Ukraine and Israel used to go after Palestine and Trump used to go after queer people.

"Violence against the people I claim are after me is righteous." Its the same refrain every time.

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u/MattheqAC 11h ago

Vengeance is not the same as fighting back

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u/AbruptMango 11h ago

I'm fine with meeting energy with like energy. Don't start the conversation if you don't want a response.

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u/LordJim11 11h ago

I do want a response. Which is why I posted this under "Controversy". I think it could lead to an interesting discussion with a variety of viewpoints presented coherently and civilly. I'm not sure what point you are making.

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u/AbruptMango 11h ago

"vengeance against evil" is the response. You're not bad for responding in kind.

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u/BandanaWaddleDee0 11h ago

Fr, sounds like no evil, no vengeance

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u/MGD109 6h ago

Who gets to define what counts as "evil"?

There are plenty of people who think that harmless actions or just people living are a form of sin.

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u/dpoodle 2h ago

But if you just meet energy with energy than you'd just be back to square one and you wouldn't be fine with that. You need to gain something for your efforts suddenly it's not like for like anymore.

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u/Glittering_Win_5085 6h ago

 The point is vengeance continues a cycle of violence and the act itself is corrosive to the person who did it. Those things may be of secondary concern in the context, but the idea that non violent resistance never works like some people are commenting is just entirely false. 

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u/Themata81 3h ago

It doesnt, literally almost all large scale “nonviolent resistance” is accompanied by by either active violence or the threat of it

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u/According-Insect-992 4h ago

There is a difference between “vengeance” and retributive justice. We need the latter rather than the former.

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u/EffectiveDirect6553 6h ago

This. The cycle never ends. As someone from a very persecuted minority I say that with certainity.

Very few disagree with just action. But an eye for an eye does render the world blind

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u/_sloop 6h ago

Dumbest take ever.

A eye for an eye only leaves the attacker and the victim injured, and leaves neither blind. It's also the basis of every civilized justice system in the world-you did <x> harm, now you must make reparations in equivalency.

What you are describing is not a 1 to 1 exchange, it's an ever spiraling escalation.

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u/Kinky_Winky_no2 5h ago

The phrase literally is "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind" because you dont end up stopping at losing a singular eye and eventually everyone loses at some point, how often do you think.someone comes back for revenge and then the target or affiliates just says "yeah you got yours I guess we stop here that was fair"

How often have you ever seen two people get in a conflict one punches the other punches back and they just stop there

Also no the justice system isn't based on equal reparations, sentences are rarely "you get what you did"

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u/EffectiveDirect6553 6h ago

And who exactly is the ultimate arbitrator of harm? Oh that's right, NO ONE is an objective arbitator of harm which is the entire problem.

Justice systems don't work on equivalence

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u/_sloop 5h ago

Wow, what a world view! If no one can judge harm then no one can decide on it, which is what would lead to the spiraling escalation you think you are advocating against.

Civilized societies create a consensus around how much harm certain actions cause in order to remove individual outliers and vigilante actions. And they absolutely attempt to enforce equivalency by trying to make the victim as whole as possible with some additional rehabilitation for the perpetrator.

Of course there isn't an easy method to equivocate harm, because everyone has their own world view and experiences, but we do the best we can.

Justice systems don't work on equivalence

We are literally discussing "eye for an eye" from the Code of Hammurabi which heavily influenced all future justice systems...

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u/poshmarkedbudu 3h ago

See the French revolution.

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u/miklayn 2h ago

If it prevents further harm it isn't merely vengeance.

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u/WillyGivens1 30m ago edited 22m ago

I think the generalization of it is the problem. There is a difference between guillotining the evil tyrant who somehow keeps getting into power even after being defeated…that’s just a question of efficacy….vs taking 2 weeks before the execution to rape them non-stop with lemons covered in razor blades….that is a recreational choice that raises an eyebrow or two.

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u/3eeve 10h ago

A truly brain dead take. Where do you think your enemies come from, if not seeking their own kind of revenge?

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u/Georgia_Flame 9h ago

Were the Holocaust, and the Nuremberg executions the "same" because both sides were just killing people?

Or was one use of power clearly monstorous, and the other morally correct?

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u/3eeve 8h ago

It’s interesting that you use Nazi/Nuremberg motivations as a contrast, considering the state Israel is in right now. You kind of proved my point.

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u/Georgia_Flame 7h ago edited 7h ago

Israel's guilty of genocide too, and their leaders deserve their day in a Nuremberg courtroom too.

Were you expecting I'm only against one genocide?

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u/InteractionPretend70 6h ago

How do you know the version of history you are told is the correct one.  The narrative is that they had to defend themselves because of October 7.  If they win, that will live on in history, not the other sides version.

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u/Georgia_Flame 6h ago

I'm not a colonial power expanding my borders into other people's countries through violence and expulsion of the natives.

I trust the Israeli public's intention of genocide by their publicly stated views. And through the violent destruction of their neighbors so intense it can be viewed from space.

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u/Several_Ebb_9842 7h ago

Lol gottem

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u/Georgia_Flame 7h ago

Got what?

I hate the Holocaust and Israel's genocide too.

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u/HyperSpaceSurfer 7h ago

What? What even led you to believe they wouldn't be against both?

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u/Georgia_Flame 7h ago

I am against the Holocaust and Israel's genocide too.

For me, "never again" was for everybody, not just European Jews.

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u/RepresentativeArm119 7h ago

Indeed, the idea that violence never solves anything is pushed by people who use violence to solve everything.

The democratization of violence is the ONLY thing that can build a truly just and equitable world.

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u/MGD109 6h ago

The democratization of violence is the ONLY thing that can build a truly just and equitable world.

That sounds suspiciously like "An armed society is a polite society"...cause everyone's dead.

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u/RepresentativeArm119 6h ago

When every disagreement could lead to death, people do tend to behave fare more respectfully. Now, I am not a madman, and I think we need real training, not just in how to effectively use firearms, bit more importantly how to settle disputes WITHOUT using firearms.

I believe that these skills should be taught in public schools, and free training should be provided to every adult who missed out on learning those things

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u/MGD109 6h ago

When every disagreement could lead to death, people do tend to behave fare more respectfully

No, they really don't. There are plenty of people who are stupid, arrogant, short-sighted or naïve enough to be convinced it could never happen to them. And there are others who quite simply don't want to take the shot.

All that sort of society does is create one where those who are best at inflicting violence can do whatever they feel like.

Now, I am not a madman, and I think we need real training, not just in how to effectively use firearms, bit more importantly how to settle disputes WITHOUT using firearms.

Well, I agree with that bit. But I stand by the idea that "democratization of violence" is a fantasy. Everyone having a gun doesn't make us all equal, cause someone will always be the faster shot and it just creates a society that favours those who don't hesitate to take it.

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u/iftheronahadntcome 4h ago

Okay, but even in a "peaceful" society where its harder to get guns, the government will have them and the rest of us won't. 

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u/Sqribe 6h ago

"If I have a gun, and you have a gun..."

The only thing that justifies power is equality.

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u/MGD109 6h ago

Yeah, giving both people guns isn't equality.

One of them will always be faster on the draw.

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u/Sqribe 5h ago

The presence of the gun is only a deterrent because those who are quicker to resort to it are typically the ones who wind up dead, and normally sooner than later. There's always a faster draw, and those who use force readily are almost never ready to be outgunned.

Equality is forged by the understanding that others' freedoms end where yours begin.

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u/MGD109 5h ago

The presence of the gun is only a deterrent because those who are quicker to resort to it are typically the ones who wind up dead, and normally sooner than later.

That sounds creepily like eugenics to be honest. Its been true for all of human history: the more violent are more likely to die, but that hasn't done much to curb human violence, cause the same factors that often make people more violent keep being repeated each generation.

Its not something you can breed out of the population.

There's always a faster draw, and those who use force readily are almost never ready to be outgunned.

Now that I do agree with.

Equality is forged by the understanding that others' freedoms end where yours begin.

Mostly. Some can just co-exist without any issue.

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u/Flight_of_Elpenor 5h ago

... of dead people.

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u/THAC0-Tuesday 11h ago

How did the Oregon shooting come to an end, again?

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u/Late-Meat9500 11h ago

I was listening to an interview with someone from the rojava like 10 years ago, when she talked about justice and fighting isis, she said vengeance was for the weak. I think about that shit

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u/sly69guy69 10h ago

That makes sense until you think about how every group of people defines who they see as evil differently.

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u/coreyjdl 9h ago

Justice and vengeance can sometimes look similar, but they are not the same thing. 

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. " Fred N

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u/gravity_kills 11h ago

Not vengeance, protective use of force.

There's no benefit to anyone in taking revenge. It doesn't make anyone whole again, and most of the time the deterrent value is a lot lower than people assume. On the other hand, prevention is hugely important. If someone is likely to do something again then taking permanent measures to make sure they can't had a pretty high likelihood of keeping harm from reaching any future victims.

Note: deterrence rests much more heavily on the immediacy and certainty of consequences than it does on the severity of the consequence. Possibly tortured to death in 20 years makes almost no difference in the minds of criminals, but definitely getting punched in the face right now works pretty consistently.

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u/tipareth1978 11h ago

Read some history of Ireland from the late 19th century on.

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u/realwithum3 11h ago

"If you murder a murderer, the number of murderers stays the same" ya, but from then on out, its just net profit, I dont become 2 murderers if I take out another

1

u/_sloop 6h ago

And you stop the first murderer from murdering more people, do a net gain.

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u/Select-Government-69 10h ago

The tyranny of virtue and the tyranny of evil are both tyranny. Freedom requires the liberty to choose between good and evil.

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u/justasillylilgoos3 9h ago

This comment section is just filled with a bunch of foreign actors trying to incite political violence amongst Americans and a bunch of brain dead basement dwellers just lapping it up like children 😭

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u/Arumia-The-lesbian 8h ago

I mean, I think it generally depends on how far your willing to go for your revenge,

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u/Khalith 6h ago

We need more stories like Inigo Montoya. He gets his vengeance, gets his closure, and moves on with his life.

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u/Superb_Algae5308 11h ago

It’s equal and opposite, not “just as bad”.

Anyway, when a man sets out for revenge he first needs to dig two graves.

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u/LordJim11 11h ago

In case the bastard has a mate? Good contingency planning.

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u/Fighter_Jet_enjoyer 11h ago

This is missing the point. So I will explain in a way that makes more sense. If freedom fighters are fighting a tyrannical government that summary executes anyone who speaks out against them succeed, but then execute anyone who had even the hint of an association with said government and also anyone who criticizes them, what was the point? They didn't replace the old, they just recycled their ideology and slapped on a new name under the guise of "justice." How many times has this happened in the last 70 years?

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u/Evan_Allgood 11h ago

What really irks the real bad guys is when artistry depicts sending evil against evil, and outperforming them in their own rule set.

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u/OSwirl31 11h ago

Vengeance against evil doesn't necessarily make you just as bad as the evil you're inflicting judgement upon. But whether or not it gets there depends entirely on how the vengeance is handled — did you take out any bystanders? Did you kill the people who were just doing their jobs?

This one of the reasons why I enjoy the Dishonored series. They're like a Rorschah (I almost certainly spelled that wrong) test — your choices reflect what you value and your actions

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u/RuralJaywalking 11h ago

It’s so vigilantes aren’t killing the wrong people or blood feuds aren’t constant. Now, if someone’s demonstrably evil enough to risk these, that changes the conversation, but in general vigilante revenge is bad.

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u/SignificantZombie729 11h ago

"Vengeance is mine" sayeth the lord.  BITCH, I'm the lord of my own dominion, fuck you.

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u/Majestic_Domestic 10h ago

Que the thousand year conflict between cultures where both side have committed countless atrocities against eachother with many innocent life destroyed in the process.

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u/Asuka_Rei 10h ago

The primary problem is that the good and evil are relative. I assure you that despite appearances evil people believe they are good and as soon as you start taking vengeance, you will then be perceived as the evil one. The only people in history who are viewed as good were the ones who either resisted peacefully or who overthrew evil and then disappeared into obscurity afterwards.

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u/Green-Soup6606 10h ago

same for teachers only intervening when bully victims strike back

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u/SalamanderLumpy5442 10h ago

Makes me think of the meme where a goody goody character says something along the lines of “if you kill a killer, the number of killers in the world stays the same” and then the morally ambiguous character replies with “I’ll kill two”

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u/Jessthinking 10h ago

“Good guys” vs “Bad guys”. Who are these good guys? The United States? There are a lot of people in the world who believe the United States is the bad guy. I don’t, but it puts the whole idea of good versus bad into perspective. The cycle of violence and vengeance has been going on in the Middle East for centuries. Under your theory, the good guys should’ve won a long time ago. But really we’re seeing there are no good guys and there are no bad guys. You watch too much television. Turn off the television and read for a change.

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u/Mean-Career-6509 9h ago

Absolutely. 

2

u/Livid-Accident-1562 9h ago

I'm pretty sure my conscience will allow me to sleep just fine at night, tyvm

1

u/MGD109 6h ago

I mean, isn't that something worth interrogating? If your conscience tells you everything you do is absolutely fine, how can you be sure it's not lying to you?

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u/MurphysLawTeam 9h ago

But this logic is exactly what someone who is evil would do. Right by might and all that.

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u/Beef_Curtain_Clitler 9h ago

Let us know how that works out for you OP. Good luck.

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u/frAgileIT 8h ago

The reality is that no one can undo a wrong like murder. All that’s truly left is doing what’s right for society to prevent it from happening again. Was it an accident or was it intentional? If it’s intentional, how could you possibly be sure it’s not going to happen again? You can’t, so vengeance is a way of balancing the social contract.

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u/WishEast337 8h ago

Vegence based justice is bad because it leads to the American penial system.

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u/No-Concentrate3518 8h ago

Guys, there is the thing called nuiance and levels/layers. Most people ain't batting an eye if you kill an evil SOB... you start taking out his family, inparticular his young children, that becomes another story. Also before the obligatory, "that's their own fault for being evil," comments that logic is not only proven flawed, does spongebob meme showing all the multitudes of historic examples that literally changed nothing long term, but is also exactly the kind of stupid assholery that gives them ammo against us. So just fucking stop at punishing perps.

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u/Ceochian 7h ago

Its scary to me how people are confusing vengeance with violence.

Violence is just a tool and the motive is what you would judge.

Vengeance is the motive of seeking pleasure through getting even through harm.

Getting pleasure from causing harm to others is a worrying thing and people regularly deal in retribution in their day to day lives arent good people.

2

u/JosephKingXVI 7h ago

To you Christians are the bad guys. To you black is white and good is evil.

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u/AFriendlyBloke 7h ago

"There is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law."

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u/SafeBeeOICU812 7h ago

Tell that to the people who are mean to you. They just see your vengeance as confirmation you deserve everything you get.

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u/TheMaskedHamster 7h ago

People who conflate resistance and vengeance have trouble distinguishing what is and isn't evil.

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u/hAsLaK1 7h ago

If someone killed your child and you kill the murderer, you’re still better than them imo. But if you avenge by killing their child, you’re pretty much as bad as them. Not all vengeances are equal

2

u/DuesCataclysmos 6h ago

Oh yeah shoving people into guillotines, no one has ever got burned by turnabout doing that.

2

u/Suspicious-Tooth20 6h ago

And this is the inevitable outcome of not teaching any sort of philosophy. Watch a movie then my uneducated friend. See the tragic tale of the man seeking justice, wreaking destruction and killing wholesale in the pursuit of justice only to wind up in the exact same moral position as his hated foe.

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u/Reasonable_Dress4192 11h ago

It’s a question of character. Is your character defined by the need to be just like those who harmed you? If so, you have no character.

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u/SemichiSam 11h ago

The word character has several different meanings. You used the word with one meaning in your question and with a different meaning in your conclusion, thus employing the fallacy of ambiguity to commit the fallacy of presumption.

You seem to be quite a character.

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u/NA_nomad 11h ago

The term "an eye for an eye" was originally used to reflect the fairness of punishments for actions taken.

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u/iamtrimble 11h ago

I mean it sounds good if you are the one defining "evil".

1

u/Sapphfire0 10h ago

Alright OP, to the guillotine!

1

u/atomicsnarl 10h ago

Two men see each other regularly over many years. They're in the same building, and speak often of worldly and local issues. They recognize they are growing old together. One is a prisoner, and one is a jailer.

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u/LordJim11 10h ago

I'd like to suggest looking at Europe from the mid 1930's through to the mid 1950's and distinguish between violent resistance and violent revenge.

As examples of violent resistance I would put;

the Battle of Cable Street (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street),

the International Brigades (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Brigades) and

the various European resistance groups which focussed on assassination of occupying forces. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_during_World_War_II#)

As examples of violent revenge I would put The Nuremburg Trials and executions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials) and

the hunting down of Nazi War criminals post WW2, including assassinations as well as capture to face trial.

How ethically defensible were these acts?

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u/MGD109 6h ago

As examples of violent revenge I would put The Nuremburg Trials and executions

The fact you put trials up as an example of revenge is where I disagree. A trial where someone can be found innocent isn't revenge.

Revenge is shooting in the back of the head and hoping it was the right person.

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u/TwoBionicknees 9h ago

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

and various similar ones I also believe was made up by people who wanted push this idea so people would logically overlook corrupt and evil actions and let them get away with it by assuming they were just incompetent and made a mistake.

Opps, they didn't intentionally forgot to mention their other homes when claiming expenses while serving as politician to scam more money, it was just a mistake, let it go.

There are so many of these little sayings and they always basically add up to, listen if you can't completely and obviously prove malice or a deliberately corrupt action... just let it go man, just let them get away with it. Seems overly convenient.

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u/Zealousideal_Mango70 9h ago

I've been having this exact debate in my head ever since I started watching Reacher 🤣

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u/sudzoof 8h ago

This is why Leda Fortune's Weave is cool, because her problem isn't that she's a vengeful serial killer, but instead that she's suicidal.

1

u/JohnRobGnar 8h ago

Same with the trope that everyone immediately starts murdering each other in any scenario where they no longer have to pay rent

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u/DOHC46 8h ago

You know... That makes a lot of sense...

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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 8h ago

Just like telling people that their real reward comes after death prevents them from demanding their fair share in life....

1

u/miglrah 7h ago

100%

1

u/Ferriluxx 7h ago

"the revolution will not be televised"

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u/ankisaves 7h ago

Yeah I’m pretty sure “non violence” protects the violent abusers.

1

u/J-Dizzle42 7h ago

"If you kill a murderer, the number of murderers stays the same."

Okay, but what if I kill two or three murderers?

1

u/Polygonal_Angel 7h ago

Then congrats, you're still a murderer

1

u/Iamverycrappy 6h ago

less tho

1

u/[deleted] 6h ago

[deleted]

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u/LordJim11 5h ago edited 5h ago

Buddhism is lovely philosophy, but when they held power in Tibet they treated the peasants no better than medieval feudal lords did. Including brutal punishments for running away.

As with all religious and political belief systems it's less important to hear believers and leaders say when they have no power than it is to look at what the did when they had it,

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u/Hidden_3851 6h ago

“If you inject substances into my arm that make me peacefully go to sleep, you’re the same as me who butchered all those people while eating baked beans and fruit loops.”

I understand why John Wick shot that guy… well the guy from the second movie.

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u/Curious_Bike_4292 6h ago

I don’t think vengeance is a necessary great idea. The Nazis were put on trial & some were executed. I think the war crimes committed by this administration should be prosecuted.

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u/Left_Composer_6449 6h ago

So if I kill a murdering r&pist who has a 1000+ r%pe and kill count, am I by default on the same level as him?

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u/wakatenai 5h ago

i think it's just bad writing.

because the REAL idea is if you begin to think of yourself as self righteous in using violence only against those who deserve it, what defines someone who "deserves" it can be easily warped.

often the bad guy is someone who is exactly that. they think they are self righteous in what they do. they think they ARE the hero.

but then the writing is dog shit because it's always 1 of 2 scenarios.

  1. the bad guy has killed like, THOUSANDS of people, is unquestionably in the wrong, and will continue to do harm if not taken out. you are not stooping to their level by taking them out. you're a hero. but they frame the hero's violence against the villain as somehow the same when it is clearly not.

  2. the hero has already killed like dozens or hundreds before getting to the main villain and then all of sudden there's a moral dilemma in killing the villain lol.

and it's almost always the writers just not understanding that motivation plays into it. what was the motivation of the villain to kill? greed? genocide? power? and what is the motivation of the hero to kill the villain? well it's to stop the villain lol. so no it's NOT the same, the hero isn't being self righteous.

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u/AdHappy7129 5h ago

If i kill a serial killer i didn’t increase the victim count. I stopped it.

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u/FierceDougal5 5h ago

I really like the way this is handled in Men At Arms (GNU Terry Prachett). If you find yourself at the wrong end of a sword hope to whatever gods you believe in that the person weilding it is a bad man. Because a good man won't talk, they wont gloat, they wont justify their actions or find their morals, they'll just kill you - immediately and quickly.

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u/Massive-Exercise4474 5h ago

Eh robbes pierre did go insane and chop happy.

1

u/mikeoxwells2 5h ago

So all of the Batman comics I’ve been reading are just propaganda? This sounds exactly like something that Bruce fucking Wayne would finance and campaign for. Oh the humanity!

1

u/PickledPlumPlot 5h ago

So what you’re saying is they should make a version of Digger where Curtis chops of nephew Rockwells head

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u/One_Ad761 4h ago

that's why you take vengeance against multiple evils. *taps forehead*

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u/stikky 4h ago

With evil being relative instead of absolute, that slope do get mighty slippery.

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u/Fun-Mission-6068 4h ago

That is exactly the point. The whole, "Don't kill us, or you'll be just as bad as us!" is just so they can go to jail for a few years before getting out to commit more villainy.

Some people will bring up nonsense about a "cycle of vengeance", but you can avoid the cycle of vengeance by getting vengeance on the evil person's trusted acquaintances so that there is no one left to get vengeance back on you. But, let's be honest, if you're getting vengeance on someone evil no one is going to care. Another evil person is going to use the opportunity to just walk into the power vacuum, they aren't going to try to get vengeance on you.

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u/FitStructure7795 4h ago

every one thinks they are the good guy lmao.

1

u/RabbitBasic5438 2h ago

It's one thing to talk about cutting someone's head off, it's another to actually do it.

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u/Knightworld16 1h ago

No see. Vengeance is bad. Guillotine was part of the law for a while...

1

u/EvanSnowWolf 18m ago

The problem with this, is then you just declare anything you don't like "evil" so you can do anything you want to it.

1

u/NoMeat9096 8m ago

We're entirely doomed as a species.

I mean, all species are, but I feel we're uniquely doomed. We have the ability to know better, but we're not going to simply change so much over time that we stop being human, or change what it means to be human. Rather, we're going to end ourselves.

At least the other animals aren't learned enough to know better.