r/Switzerland • u/keequalshalfmvsqrd • 2d ago
Loosening of war material export restrictions
https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/kriegsmaterialgesetz-alles-zur-abstimmung-vom-29-november-73205054213926
u/SourceFront7396 2d ago
sooo.. just last month our neutrality was super duper important, and now the same group of people wants to export weapons into warzones?
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u/Sea_Read5728 1d ago
I think you almost got it. Yes neutrality, but not from making money. It has always been like this with neutrality from swizterland
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u/khargoro Solothurn 2d ago
If they added the part where they loosen export restrictions to Ukraine I would totally support it, but these idiots ruled Ukraine explicitly out. So now it's a resounding No from me.
Slawa Ukrajini!
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u/Poly_core 2d ago
Same here, I was astonished that they put that in. Our primary goal with weapon export should be to contribute to European security.
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u/HastyLemur201 2d ago
I was astonished that they put that in.
Have you ever heard of the treasonous, pro-Russian right-wing party led and funded by a nepo baby with business interests in Russia, which is known as the Swiss People's Party in German and the Democratic Union of the Centre in French ?
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u/QualitySufficient170 Jura 1d ago
I have a question: If the initiative is approved, and we sell weapons—to Germany, for example—and Germany sends some of them to Ukraine, what would happen? Currently, we have the right to veto such a sale. But as I understand it, once the sale has gone through, we wouldn't be able to oppose it anymore, would we?
In that sense, if the arms industry lobbies to sell its stockpiles to neighboring countries and those countries decide to send them to Ukraine, wouldn't that still allow us to provide more military aid to Ukraine than we do now, indirectly?
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u/billcube Genève 2d ago
See the text, it's not about "loosening the restrictions", it's a referendum attacking what both Federal Council and Parliament approved.
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u/Gysburne 2d ago
There is a paywall... and no i am not knowledgeable enough to get around it.
But if i have to guess who initiated the referendum.... SVP?
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u/SpiritedInflation835 2d ago
The new law wants to give a blanket permission to sell armament to 25 countries, including the Untied Spades - even if they're currently at war with any other country. (Which raises very interesting questions regarding the Holy Swiss Neutrality, btw.)
But Ukraine is exempt from those 25 countries.
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u/keequalshalfmvsqrd 2d ago
That's correct. Basically it would allow them to export weapons to countries like Israel and the US, but not Ukraine.
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u/Background-Wafer-548 2d ago
The referendum was initiated by the opponents of the bill. The SVP is in favor of it.
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u/luekeler Bern 2d ago
No! The left has requested the referendum. Parliament wanted to prevent the arms industry from loosing all customers by making it easier to export to western countries and for these countries to forward Swiss weapons to their allied countries such as Ukraine.
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u/keequalshalfmvsqrd 2d ago
To be clear, this referendum would not allow weapons exports to Ukraine.
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u/luekeler Bern 2d ago
Indeed. Bi neither would the draft legislation by parliament allow weapons exports to Ukraine. Also, this is forbidden by international neutrality laws (unless we export to Russia too, as far as international law goes). However, the draft legislation by parliament would allow weapons exports to EU and other western countries without the imposition of restrictions on re-exports to third countries such as Ukraine.
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u/BCGILM 2d ago
The left obviously hates anything that has to do with defence and security. They would love to see this countries defence industry disappear. If there is a conflict, bamboo bikes, pride flags and hopes and prayers will bring peace. 🤡
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u/keequalshalfmvsqrd 2d ago
Nah the left and right are just have opposite allies. Plenty of leftists arm themselves too these days.
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u/Fresh-Adagio 2d ago
It isn't 1939, it's 2026. If somebody want's to attack us, we're fucked anyway.
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u/BCGILM 2d ago
No we are not “fucked anyway”, they can attack us, but that doesn’t mean they will invade us.
Imagine Ukraine having such a stupid attitude.
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u/Fresh-Adagio 2d ago
It's not about attitude, it's about numbers. 100K soldiers and a few jets won't do shit. Stop the fairytale, only thing that would be worth something in that case would be nukes
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u/BCGILM 2d ago
Yeah they will actually do shit, 100k soldiers defending can inflict serious casualties on an enemy.
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u/Fresh-Adagio 2d ago
Yeah sure, the "Mittelland" would be wiped out within 24-48 hours, only defense would remain in the alps. It's a gigantic waste of money and will always be
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u/waldothefrendo 2d ago
With no drones, no airdefence and virtually no electronic warfare capabilities?
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u/Izacus 2d ago
Yes. Planes don't take ground.
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u/waldothefrendo 2d ago
And once the whole army is bombed out, who is gonna defend on the ground?
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u/BCGILM 2d ago
How do you want to bomb out a complete army? Ukraine has very few proper bunkers and is rather flat and is able to slow down Russian advances massively. Simply from a topographical and bunker perspective, we have a better setup…
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u/waldothefrendo 2d ago
Ukraine absolutely outclasses us in airdefence and drone warfare and EW capabilities. That is why their airforce is still alive and nobody has airdominance. They also have a safe zone that is out of range of medium range missiles which Switzerland as a small country has not
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u/BCGILM 2d ago
Rheinmetall/Oerlikon has close range air defence, drones and EW capabilities (which we already have) we have to build up and learn from Ukraine.
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u/waldothefrendo 2d ago
Rheinmetall and the swiss army are two very different entites. It isn't enough to have a manufacturer in the country. You need the systems integrated already with trained personnel
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u/Sea_Read5728 2d ago edited 2d ago
It definitely would. The topography is a hassle for a military to overcome. Especially if they have to deal with resistance in natural choke points. It all plays a part in defense. And for the most part an invader really wouldn't dedicate so much resources required to overcome this for a place only rich in natural beauty... what a beautiful country
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u/Suspicious_Place1270 Zürich 1d ago
100k swiss soldiers against 200k enemies: the swiss shoot twice and go home
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u/Kemaneo Zürich 2d ago
Why do we need to sell arms for „defence and security“?
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u/BCGILM 2d ago
Because the development and production of arms is dependent on economies of scale. You cannot sustain an advanced defence industry by only supplying Switzerland and a few select foreign customer.
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u/rpsls 2d ago
I can’t vote yet and people here seem to not entirely agree on what this initiative is for, but my position on this is that it’s okay for a neutral country to export arms to a country in conflict as long as they are used only within the buying country’s pre-conflict borders. I can’t think of a better way to define “defensive use,” but it would, for example, allow Ukraine to receive them to defend themselves but not invade or attack Russia.
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u/poemthatdoesntrhyme ZH 2d ago
Not being able to attack the territory of the enemy is like fighting with handcuffs on the hands. Do you think it's possible to defend your territory without attacking the enemy in their territory?
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u/Final_Influence_2367 1d ago
Thats the paradox though, the iniative doesnt allow to export to ukraine but to warmongering dictatorships like Saudi Arabia and authoritarian US
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