Probably the most controversial one , honest thoughts on "No Kill Rule"? What are the most egrigious examples of it in your opinion? What media makes it work in your opinion?

[u/Doot_revenant666]

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

I think its actually a very good trope and more often then not, actually makes the hero more interesting.

In the cases of the listed examples, Spidey is honestly much more powerful then the bulk of his villains, he is almost always holding back. That restraint, is huge to him, considering his whole belief system revolves around responsibility.

Daredevil is a devout Catholic. Yes, I dont imagine Christ would personally endorse dressing up and crippling criminals, but the fact he does draw a line and is often worried for his eternal soul is fundamentally an interesting part of the character.

Batman, is someone traumatized by death and is someone who is very well aware that he is a lunatic. Him drawing a line, keeps him grounded and reminds him why he does what he does.

In all cases, the trope allows the villains to challenge and test the heroes in ways otherwise impossible and invites much more intresting discussion, then it would if they just killed whomever stood in their way.

I also find the critique "Well they just break out of prison anyway" to fall flat. This is just an issue of the comic book genre, you need the villains to come back if they are popular enough. Comic books are stories that just simply do not end, and applying this logic solely to no kill heroes feels weak. Especially given, full kill heroes rarely seem to actually kill the big bad either. Punisher kills dude after dude, but Jigsaw he often finds a reason to spare. Its not the fault of Batman, Joker breaks out of prison for the millionth time, its just the nature of the medium. At bare minimum, the no kill actually better justifies things, both for the writer and in universe for why these characters can come back, with minimal contrivance.

Imagine is Batman did kill, then a new writer wants to use the Joker....how do you resolve that? New Joker, he comes back from the dead, clone saga, time travel, he just faked his death etc etc. Comic books have done them all.....and they all suck compare to "he broke out of Jail"

[u/SisterSabathiel → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

I also find the critique "Well they just break out of prison anyway" to fall flat. This is just an issue of the comic book genre, you need the villains to come back if they are popular enough. Comic books are stories that just simply do not end, and applying this logic solely to no kill heroes feels weak. Especially given, full kill heroes rarely seem to actually kill the big bad either. Punisher kills dude after dude, but Jigsaw he often finds a reason to spare. Its not the fault of Batman, Joker breaks out of prison for the millionth time, its just the nature of the medium. At bare minimum, the no kill actually better justifies things, both for the writer and in universe for why these characters can come back, with minimal contrivance.

I'm no Batman afficionado, but I find Batman super interesting because he doesn't place himself above the law. Killing the villains would be appointing himself judge, jury and executioner, so he captures them alive for processing by the criminal justice system. If the Joker was tried for his crimes and executed by electric chair, I doubt Batman would intervene to stop it.

I find this much more interesting and reflects on vigilante justice.

[u/Cory123125 → u/SisterSabathiel]

because he doesn't place himself above the law.

In what universe is vigilanty justice, breaking and entering, trespassing, holding definitely illegal weapons and much much more not putting yourself above the law.

Its an arbitrary line in the sand that is purely frustrating to watch.

[u/PinkLionGaming → u/Cory123125]

I've seen "Superheroes can't break the law" (paraphrased) a couple of times as an argument in different discussions and it's so strange. Putting no-kill rule discussions aside "Superheroes can't or shouldn't break the law" is just not true. Even in Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 1 his response to being told he's under arrest when he comes back is "I'm not coming back Chief."

[u/Karl_StoneM63 → u/PinkLionGaming]

I think many Superheroes who have to work outside of the law and hide their true identity kind of HAVE to break some laws to get the villain. Like the saying, "You have to break a few eggs to make an omelet(paraphrased heavily),"

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/SisterSabathiel]

Batman honestly seems cool with others killing Joker if the situati0on allowed for it. In Under the Red Hood, he basically gave Jason the chance to do so and turns his back on Jason, only attacking when Jason shot at Batman. After Joker kills Gordons wife, Batman leaves Jokers fate in Gordons hands and implicitly agrees not to interfere regardless of the choice Jim makes.

Sure there are times when Batman saves Joker, typically when its two villains clashing and they are as bad as each other anyways, but if an innocent with a good reason decides to kill the Joker, he probably would accept that (though he might bring in the guy after the fact, since a murder is still a murder).

[u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

I mean, there was that one guy in BTAS who tried to blow up joker because he was sick of the blackmail and wanted to save his family, but Batman just talked him out of it and sent him back to his family who went into witness protection again

[u/Sharajat → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

Batman saves the Joker has been done a few times, but it's always because he's been falsely accused (Batman doesn't mind him being executed, but letting the real culprit escape is no good) or because someone else would die (again, no good).

As you say, it is comics, the real issue is the revolving door prisons that Gotham operates. Like gee, you let the Joker escape again? You let a fat man with an umbrella escape? You let a serial killer who can't even talk properly escape? You let some wacko that thinks he's Zeus escape? HOW?

[u/ERedfieldh → u/SisterSabathiel]

so he captures them alive for processing by the criminal justice system

which already puts him above the law to begin with

[u/Accomplished_Toe6798 → u/ERedfieldh]

How so?

[u/Freya0232 → u/Accomplished_Toe6798]

First of all, citizen arrest isn't legal in the whole US, so it would be need to be legal in Gotham for Batman to be able to detain them within the confines of the law. THEN (and again, only if Citizen Arrest is a thing in gotham) he would need to follow a strict procedure, which does include that you as a citizen (even if you're doing the citizen arrest) cannot search and/or interrogate the person being detained. Also you need to only use enough force to prevent the detained to flee. No maiming, no breaking bones, etc.

[u/MandolinMagi → u/SisterSabathiel]

he doesn't place himself above the law

He's a vigilante beating people up, he is absolutely acting above the law.

[u/szthesquid → u/SisterSabathiel]

Especially interesting in stories like the one I can't remember the name of, where a jury finally finds that the Joker's plan to poison commemorative clown stamps was too meticulous for an insanity plea and he gets the death penalty... except Batman knows the Joker didn't do it. It's too impersonal and random in its targets. It's not funny.

Batman has to find the real killer but also grapple with knowing that when he does, the Joker won't get the death penalty he fully deserves and won't otherwise get through the legal system.

[u/Sharajat → u/szthesquid]

Yup. I see the panel posted about the Joker and Red Skull for "Evil has Standards" but it's silly, the Joker has always had very high standards. It's just they're INSANE. A wacky guy with a skullface killing people is fairly amusing, an idealogue killing people for being Jewish is boring. On the other hand the Joker - the Joker - playing "American Hero" and killing the Nazi is hilarious, what did people think he'd do?