"Good guys" committing perfidy (fake surrender) and it's treated as a clever heroic ploy instead of a war crime or something morally dubious

[u/AporiaParadox]

1. Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Anakin pretends to surrender to the enemy multiple times during the Clone Wars. And no, it's not used to indicate that Anakin is falling to the Dark Side, other characters like Obi-Wan do it too.
2. The Iliad. The Trojan Horse was a real dick move, a fake surrender compounded by a fake peace offering, followed by a massacre. I get that it was a different time, but still, most modern adaptations just treat it as a cool thing. One thing I'll give Nolan's The Odyssey credit for is that Odysseus recognizes that what his "clever plot" was wrong.

Perfidy is a serious war crime, because morality aside, in exchange for one victory, you're dooming all of your allies who might want to legitimately surrender in the future because now the enemy is just going to execute them, not to mention that now the enemy won't surrender to you and will just fight harder.

[u/Raguleader]

Babylon 5, part of the backstory, later expanded upon in the TV film "In the Beginning" is the humans getting into a very one-sided war against the more advanced Minbari. The only victory the humans won until the end of the war was when Commander John Sheridan laid a minefield around his ship (already disabled due to a Minbari ambush they fell afoul of previously) and then send out a distress signal.

A Minbari warship, the Black Star, pride of the Minbari fleet, picked up the signal and closed in eager to finish off the helpless human ship. And then sailed into the minefield, resulting in the destruction of the Black Star. The Minbari took this personally and went on to refer to Sheridan as "Star Killer," although the human stance on the engagement was that it was a genuine distress call (the crew would die if not rescued), and the Black Star was not going to be picking up survivors based on past behavior.

A decade or so later, during the Shadow War, Sheridan, now leader of the Army of Light, is invited to the Shadow homeworld to seek out a peaceful solution. He suspects they aren't being on the level, and has rigged his ship with nuclear warheads. When his suspicions are verified, he sets off the nukes in his ship, blowing up the Shadow capital, which he was invited to under a flag of (false) truce.

Really, Sheridan is the poster child for heroes doing morally dubious things to win battles against significantly more powerful (and often untrustworthy) enemies.

[u/Plasticglass456 → u/Raguleader]

Great examples!

I'm on Sheridan's side in both situations, and honestly don't even think either is morally dubious in the slightest, and no, not just because he's the show's hero (I think he handles Lyta and the telepath situation terribly, for example).

People in this thread have pointed out why perfidy is such a bad idea IRL. If your enemy thinks your surrender is fake, they will never accept surrender. But... the Minbari already don't! As you pointed out, they are deliberately hunting wounded survivors to finish them, and for no other reason than religious genocide. They will kill any human being that they can find, surrendering or not. So under those circumstances, commit perfidy all the livelong day.

For the other incident, Sheridan got confirmation from Franklin that Anna has been surgically altered just like the Shadow ships' pilots, something she never mentions or tells him. That already tells him the Shadows have no intention of actual, peaceful negotiations, and that John's death or brainwashing would be the only result of going to Z'ha'dum. If you already know the other party is going to ambush you at peace talks, then you've got no reason to treat their request as legitimate.

[u/Raguleader → u/Plasticglass456]

The Black Star incident is interesting specifically because it does get discussed from time to time. The other incident might be more interesting because the Shadows never seem to bring it up as a point of contention. Maybe they were impressed by the audacity.

[u/Plasticglass456 → u/Raguleader]

I've always thought that was the case when Vir tells Morden (and his invisible associates) what he "wants." I could absolutely see them being impressed by his answer. The Shadows' philosophy is eugenics crap at the end of the day, but from their POV, someone like Vir is proof that it works.

In a world where the Shadows never "kick down the ant hills," Vir probably would have been a perpetually overwhelmed, nervous diplomat who never got anywhere in life. Instead, because of their involvement in his life, Vir found the strength to stand up to Morden, to save thousands of Narn lives, to stop Cartagia, to fight the Drakh, to become Emperor.

The tiniest sliver of a point they have is that conflict reveals who's strong and who's weak, and who is who it isn't always who you'd think it'd be.

[u/Raguleader → u/Plasticglass456]

Morden: "Did you hear what that little weasel said to me?!"

Handler: "Yeah. Did you see the look on your face when he said it? We got it on video."