Advanced aliens didn't invent/discover this one basic thing.

[u/HotUKTakes]

1. The Santi, from The Three Body Problem, are masters of dimensional engineering. They can build an AI computer the size of a planet, and fold it into the size of a photon.

But they never invented the concept of lying.

1. The Asgard, from Stargate, are an advanced civilization with FTL travel capable of spanning different galaxies. But they need the help of humans to fight their enemies the replicators, a mechanical lifeform comprised of replicating lego blocks, because human guns can blow the blocks apart, while Asgard energy weapons are just absorbed.

The Asgard say the idea to use chemical reactions to launch a blunt object at high velocity never occured to them.

1. Despite having the ability to build a simulated beach, complete with simulated earth atmosphere, The Eridians didn't discover relativity and radiation.

2. The aliens from War of the worlds just lick everything, clearly having no concepts of germs. Which is what kills them in the end.

3. Despite having FTL travel, the Havesters from Independence day, never invented network security, as they are hacked by a human macbook.

[u/Meme_Pope]

It’s not so much that the Santi didn’t “invent” lying as it is that it just doesn’t work in their society where everyone shares thoughts essentially telepathically

[u/rinart73 → u/Meme_Pope]

Sorry I haven't read the book yet but at least in the TV series the woman that called Santi got a warning from one of the Santi telling her to stop transmitting or their species will come. It kinda seemed to me that if not lying, that one specific Santi was capable of hiding information from others?

[u/Aggravating-Reach473 → u/rinart73]

They're being truthful.

"If you don't stop shouting, and possibly atrracting even bigger predator, we'll be forced to come and annihilate your species to shut you up"

This is based on Dark Forest Theory.

And that's what one of the Wallfacer eventually did in his final plan

[u/olmyapsennon → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Tbf if I remember correctly, in the books the trisolaran that was contacted initially and told them to stop transmitting was something of an activist on their planet and didn’t agree with invading earth. I also recall him being punished for it.

Edit: as others have pointed out, the trisolaran wasn’t able to lie to his superiors. As soon as someone relieved him at his outpost they immediately knew what he did, which is why the next batch of messages were so drastically different. But it did show that the trisolarans weren’t a hive mind and that they were capable of compassion, which becomes more evident in the 3rd book.

[u/ElProfeGuapo → u/olmyapsennon]

Probably what got him caught too. "Hey, Frank. Are you broadcasting our plans to the earthlings?"

[u/FlippyFlippenstein → u/olmyapsennon]

Would they really be able to do that, if they aren’t able to lie?

[u/sparklinglies → u/FlippyFlippenstein]

How does that work, not agreeing with someone and actively lying to them are two completely different things. Not being forthcoming with information that no one directly asked about is not a lie, neither is actively avoiding people to prevent communication with them.

[u/AsstacularSpiderman → u/sparklinglies]

He also immediately admitted to it the moment the others of his species noticed he made the transmission.

[u/chrisonetime → u/sparklinglies]

Yeah he was isolated in his watchtower thing for his shift if I remember correctly so when confronted he folded like a lawn chair immediately

[u/ErectPotato → u/FlippyFlippenstein]

What lie are they telling? I see no lie

[u/mayasux → u/FlippyFlippenstein]

So the reason they can’t lie isn’t out of moral reasons or whatever.

The way they communicate is with an organ that is constantly transmitting their thoughts for others to read. They can’t lie because they can’t selectively choose what to transmit, they’re essentially open books for one another.

This alien, who is alone on his shift, warns Earth, but the moment he’s relieved, the one taking over knows what he did because the warner is transmitting his thoughts to picked up by any other of his species.

[u/s_mcivor → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

I have my criticisms of the books but the Wallfacer performing a "spell" on another star was one of the coolest things I've ever read.

[u/MotherPuffer → u/s_mcivor]

The wallfacer plans are some of the coolest concepts ive come across

[u/billions_of_stars → u/MotherPuffer]

Those books really ride the line between having some of the most mind blowing shit to the absolute dumbest shit.

[u/Sunny-Chameleon → u/billions_of_stars]

All the romance stuff is just plain cringe, but the sci-fi makes up for that

[u/billions_of_stars → u/Sunny-Chameleon]

One major plot point issue I had was the part where the entire threat of the droplet and the Trisolarians was essentially hand waved away with the 4d pocket of space they discovered. It was a cool concept but I felt like it sort of sucked the wind out of my sails for the tension he was building. I liked a lot of those ideas but it really felt Deus ex machina.

[u/imperialTiefling → u/billions_of_stars]

Eh id have to disagree. A discovery on that scale was their biggest worry hence the sophon blockade. Applications of that discovery definitely fall under the axiom of Technological Explosion. There's a lot of these little implications of grander plans if you stop and think some of the mind game stuff through.

Like The Wallfacer Plan, Stating there are only 3 people allowed to lie in order to strive for a strategic victory is in itself a strategic deception. We get multiple POV characters that arent wallfacers, yet try to see their secret plans through to fruition.

[u/billions_of_stars → u/imperialTiefling]

I'm sure your points are valid honestly. I guess on a grand scheme perspective I like what he did but the "oh how are they going to get out of this jam!" part of me was annoyed. Perhaps encouraged by too many Hollywood type story tropes. But I think more than anything them just happening to stumble onto that patch of 4d space sort of broke my level of believability but that's silly too because the whole thing is pretty outlandish I guess.

[u/Fancy_Chips → u/billions_of_stars]

The entirety of Death's End really kinda went off the rails in a lot of regards. I feel like Three Body Problem and Dark Forest were a single continuity and everything after felt narratively disjointed. The Trisolarans fucking around (and subsequently finding out), the random civs suddenly being extremely and specifically relevant, the dimensional stuff, the protagonist just making the absolute worst choices consistently with no real development (everything that she did correctly was with AA right next to her).

It kinda felt like Dark Forest wrapped up too well and Cixin went "OH SHIT" and tried to redirect the discussion because, by all intents and purposes, Luo Ji did "solve" the Dark Forest problem via MAD and Game Theory.

[u/billions_of_stars → u/Fancy_Chips]

I've seen this happen with other series where the author wants to keep having fun with this world they created and rather than creating a new one they just go batshit crazy in the current one.

[u/Neinstein14 → u/billions_of_stars]

Oh that was absolutely handwavium pro plus extra deus ex machina. I didn’t really mind because Cixin’s style is kinda like that - the “integrity” of the story is almost secondary to showing cool ideas and concepts. Cixin, with all due respect, absolutely sucks at storywriting in general, which is compensated by the really interesting and often unique ideas he presents during the otherwise at most mediocre plot. The first book doesn’t really suffer from this, but the second two books really show it.

I mean, come on. the ship being chased entering a 4D space just at the right moment, right when the sophons would attack them due to completely unrelated events happening on Earth, with minute accuracy after being chased for decades? A 3D human being entering and interacting with 4D space, being completely able to percieve it, with 3D machine functioning perfectly in it? With somehow 3D physics fully remaining in effect on them? Not to mention - if they are able to see and reach inside human body as if it was a sheet of paper, how is their blood not spilling out?

Is it realistic? Absolutely not, not even close.

Is the story believable? Absolutely not a bit.

Was I entertained? Absolutely, very much.

[u/jdiskxkfidobsvsgdi → u/billions_of_stars]

I feel like the whole series is best read as a series of cool sci-fi ideas and themes. The plot is pretty silly if you take it seriously but it’s still a really fun ride

[u/ElJacinto → u/Sunny-Chameleon]

Really hoping the Netflix show can give us the good and downplay the cringe.

[u/it4chl → u/billions_of_stars]

the author has absolutely mind blowing scifi ideas, and a torrential amount of them.

but has now clue how to write real human characters, theres like 2 memorable characters across 3 books. read the books like a wiki and they are amazing fun.

[u/LisaTearsYouApart → u/billions_of_stars]

I love the worldbuilding. I hate the writing. I finished the first book and enjoyed it despite the writing. I could not finish the second book. Everything I know beyond the first book is from video essays and the like.

[u/sleeper_shark → u/billions_of_stars]

The whole waifu plotline was some of the worst, most cringiest writing I've ever encountered.. but the rest is some of the best sci-fi I've ever read

[u/billions_of_stars → u/sleeper_shark]

It was so bizarre and really makes me wonder what led to the inspiration for that honestly. Like, would that be less weird to perhaps another culture or something?

[u/bsubtilis → u/billions_of_stars]

I don't know, but there are other stories where reincarnated lovers have one wait for the other through many different reincarnations, perhaps this was a subversion of that type of trope?

[u/Hexnohope → u/s_mcivor]

I really got to give this series another chance. Evidently i misjudged.

[u/genderlawyer → u/Hexnohope]

There are a lot of flaws and some tough spots that you have to tough out, but it is an absolutely amazing series that I'm constantly trying to get my friends to get into.

[u/oberynMelonLord → u/genderlawyer]

I just skipped the entire section where Luo Ji is imagining his perfect girlfriend. fucking hell, that was cringy.

[u/universe2000 → u/Hexnohope]

I read the first book and found it too inconsistent to read the other books. Some really, really great moments strung together with difficult pacing and characters.

[u/bctimmy → u/universe2000]

The second book is worth it, so much a better read than the first one

[u/Gobe182 → u/bctimmy]

Yet it also has the worst random plot line of any of the books. And somehow is still my favorite of the series. Insane highs but insane lows

[u/Agitated_Phone_9937 → u/universe2000]

Chinese authors are hamstrung by CCP doctrine and usually write absolutely terrible dialogue but are better able to express their talent with concepts and ideas because the censorship is less able to restrict those.

[u/Fluid-Produce808 → u/Agitated_Phone_9937]

Three body problem explicitly starts out with a scathing criticism of the revolution. The issue with the books is not censorship. Cixin liu just has a soft misogyny that makes all the female characters a bit ridiculous.

[u/Schmetterlizlak → u/Fluid-Produce808]

In the Chinese version the whole cultural revolution part was moved further into the book because the publisher thought it would be difficult to get it past the censors otherwise, so censorship has shaped the work in some way at least.

Can definitely agree that there is some misogyny in the books, which definitely extends to the way the protagonist of the third book is just along for the ride, and don't get me started on the fourth book...

[u/Agitated_Phone_9937 → u/Fluid-Produce808]

You're very out of date on current PRC policies towards the cultural revolution. VERY out of date.

[u/Darmok47 → u/Hexnohope]

The first book is a slog and the third gets pretty out there at times, but the second book, The Dark Forest, is intense.

[u/throwawy29833 → u/Darmok47]

The imaginary girlfriend plot is pretty slow and shit but pretty much everything else in that book is fantastic

[u/Deaffin → u/throwawy29833]

Felt like they just crammed an entirely different book into that book to pad it out.

[u/throwawy29833 → u/Deaffin]

Its an odd one for sure. Especially because I think the ending of book 3 is extremely fast paced and borderline rushed. If he hadnt dawdled around with this weird girlfriend shit in book 2 maybe those big important ideas in book 3 could have been fleshed out more. But it is what is. I enjoyed the series for the most part regardless.

[u/Different-Try8882 → u/Darmok47]

Funny; I liked the first, thought the second was awful and the third was bad until the grand finale, which was then undermined by the epilogue which reverses the thesis of the whole series. YMMV

[u/AimlessMillennium → u/Hexnohope]

You have to enjoy world building and sci-fi concept development to really get into them. The first book takes a bit to get into with Ye Wenjie's backstory. As the series develops, characters themselves become less central to the story and exist mostly to experience the universe Liu Cixin gradually builds/reveals.

[u/soulsnoober → u/Hexnohope]

Do NOT read the fanfic sequel that was canonized by the publisher as the "4th book" of the trilogy

If you want to read the first ones, I can't stop you, but the "official" ending really did retroactively ruin the whole enterprise for me. I don't recommend that anyone engage with 3 Body Problem. There's plenty of sci fi out there with big big ideas that don't entrain the garbage.

hit up Hannu Rajaniemi's The Quantum Thief

[u/Hexnohope → u/soulsnoober]

I really liked the cosmic tier mystery it had going at first. And while i didnt expect aliens i think it could have worked if they were more "roadside picnic" type aliens

[u/soulsnoober → u/Hexnohope]

it had good bits! the opening exposition embedded in the Cultural Revolution and its aftermath, really drew me in.

but jesus fuck, the conclusion of the series was … egregiously bad

[u/billions_of_stars → u/Hexnohope]

funnily, I read the first book and didn't pick up the others. Then the Netflix show left me with a cliffhanger which annoyed me and I so I just read the series. It's not perfect but it's worth the read. Some parts are really cool and some parts are pretty dumb.,

[u/Dekipi → u/Hexnohope]

Yeah same. Or are these youths out of touch?!

[u/echoshatter → u/Hexnohope]

It's not worth it. Only the first book was any good. I really don't get how the series was so popular.

If you want a good trilogy, Anne Leckie's "Ancillary" set are good. She also has a few other books set in that universe that vary in quality, one coming out next May in fact.

[u/Hexnohope → u/echoshatter]

Thats the vibe i was getting. The show started with a ten out of ten god tier mystery. "Physics is breaking down and some malevont force has found the earth. So powerful in fact it can flicker the universe in the sky to match some random childrens toy to give one person a message."

And then its just... aliens. I thought it would be more impressive honestly.

[u/Gobe182 → u/s_mcivor]

What criticism of the books?? The random long ass Waifu arc wasn’t peak?

[u/aaaayyyylmaoooo → u/s_mcivor]

expand please! sounds cool and i dont care for spoilers this time

[u/licoricenipple → u/aaaayyyylmaoooo]

I'll spoiler tag it for anyone else who wants to read the series or is awaiting season 2 of the TV show.

Mankind broadcasts a message into space, looking for alien contact. The reply they get back is from a lone alien individual who says "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP BROADCASTING OR MY SPECIES WILL INVADE YOU! SENDING A SECOND MESSAGE WILL LET US NARROW DOWN YOUR LOCATION BY TIMING THE REPLY!" But ignoring that advice, a human scientist sends a further reply. The aliens set off to invade us but it'll take 400 years for their ships to arrive. In the meantime, they have already placed devices on Earth that can spy on anyone and anything at any time, and communicate that information to their human loyalists to act on. So mankind wants to come up with some strategy to defend itself, but they can't discuss any ideas or planning aloud or in writing, because the aliens and their supporters will immediately know about it.

The best idea the UN has is to appoint a handful of select people as "wall-facers", named after monks who stare silently at blank walls to meditate, who formulate strategies silently in their own head and order organizations to carry necessary steps out without ever revealing the larger plan or its intent. Others just have to carry their orders out on faith. We see four of them execute plans that each have an outward red-herring appearance and a secret hidden intent.

One of the wall-facers orders the construction of a gigantic antenna and eye-wateringly powerful amplifier which he will use to broadcast a magical incantation of wrath on a targeted star. It is built, he writes the gibberish incantation, and it's broadcast, but nothing happens. He is mocked and his plan is forgotten about. 50 years later, that star is completely annihilated in a way no one can understand, ripped apart in an instant, and he is brought out to explain what has happened, how he did this and what his plan was.

He observed that mankind's hope has been that with 400 years to work, and technology moving so quickly, they could come up with defensive weapons. After all, it took only 40 years to go from inventing planes to dropping nuclear bombs from them, what could we come up with in 400 years? But if that's our hope, it would be the aliens' fear. Traveling to even a very nearby star takes so long that by the time you reach your destination the people there have completely changed. Like if the Spanish set off to invade the Aztec Empire in the 1500s but when their ships arrived, the Aztecs had nukes. Or if you sailed off to visit your close and peaceful allies in another country but by the time you got there, they'd completely changed governments and were now at war with your homeland. The timespans involved in space travel are so long you can't rely on or trust any past information about other planets/systems and negotiating doesn't work, seemingly peaceful people can become warlike and launch nukes at your planet before you even realize they've discovered fire.

He figured that all species will realize this eventually and decide that the only safe and sensible behavior when it comes to interstellar relations is to completely destroy any other civilization you catch wind of before they can become a threat to you. To test it, he used the giant antenna to broadcast an encoded message, "We live at star 187J3X1, here are our coordinates relative to landmarks in the Milky Way, are there any other species out there who want to communicate with us?", out into the universe (the incantation). Once that message reached the ears of a hyper-advanced civilization they instantly destroyed star 187J3X1, proving his theory true, the universe is inhabited by any number of incomprehensibly advanced species who will destroy any new civilization they hear about.

Having proven his theory correct he reveals that the antenna will broadcast the location of Earth and the invading aliens' homeworld if an order is given or a dead man's switch is triggered, dooming both us and them completely, and the aliens halt their plans.

[u/aaaayyyylmaoooo → u/licoricenipple]

you’re very kind to write all this out! thanks! super cool

[u/eyejayvd → u/licoricenipple]

Great summary. So fucking cool. Makes me want to read the trilogy all over again.

[u/willy_koop → u/s_mcivor]

I love how the weapons gradually no longer resemble anything we have at the present, both in form and function.

[u/Dismal-Vanilla1878 → u/s_mcivor]

I know it might not be 'right' for me to feel the following way about the story overall, but I can't help it (so pardon my lack of knowledge overall):

There was one scene that caught my attention on Youtube, since it looked like it was straight out of a Horror Movie: The 'Ship Cut To Pieces by 'adamantium' threads' scene.

This was something set up by the 'Good Guys', in order to get a single hard drive from the 'Alien Worshiper Cult' that ran the ship?

They seemed to know that there were entire FAMILIES aboard that ship! Also, how would you be sure the hard drive wouldn't be damaged by the strings, or simply crushed beyond repair by the Tons of debris the ship turned into?

To me, sending a military raid to get the drive would have been just as effective, and resulted in much less loss of life, particularly the children (and although they don't show it, you see a helicopter get cut apart, which was right in front of a 'playground' with children on it, so it can be assumed that they were killed as well.

[u/Oleleplop → u/s_mcivor]

The conversation he had with the Santi where he basically had them at a checkmate state was badass and terrifying at the same time

[u/Spring-King → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Wasn't it more that the one alien decided that he would rather let his own species go extinct than doom another, and so told the humans not to send another signal because the time delay between multiple messages could be used to pinpoint the distance between them?

[u/tochimo → u/Spring-King]

Just finished Three Body Problem, and half-way through The Dark Forest.

Essentially, yes. And to anyone else wondering who gets this far in the comments, the communication scene as explained from the Santi side happened in this setting: The Santi had established listening posts (I understood these to be in space around their planet) that were remote and there were not a lot of Santi 'active' at any given post - it mentioned that it was a lonely existence to work at one of these. So when this 'moral' (or defeatist, as in resigned in to their species ultimate doom) noticed the signals, they sent the signal back "Do not respond". Since there were no other Santi at the station (or at least rehydrated ones), there was no need to hide their actions from anyone present.

[u/SmegmaUnicorn → u/Spring-King]

This is exactly it. OP (who’s probably a bot), is completely wrong about this. 

[u/Substantial_Army_639 → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

I mean to be fair their question does have weight unless, there is a mistranslation between Chinese to English I definitely took it as one Santi warning humanity. I just assumed the author didn't necessarily have the race exactly fleshed out yet.

[u/Meme_Pope → u/Substantial_Army_639]

That’s basically how I hand wave it. You have the whole thing where you get a POV on their society with different politicians arguing over shit and essentially behaving like humans and clearly the author decided that he didn’t like that, because it never happens again

[u/throwawy29833 → u/Meme_Pope]

I just assumed that was for the readers benefit? Otherwise it would be awkward to write about how Trisolarin 1 displayed his thoughts for Trisolarin 2 and then he replied back with his brain display or whatever. So he just wrote it like they were talking normally because thats basically whats happening.

[u/forsterfloch → u/Meme_Pope]

on the topic, did the same happen with civilizations living inside atoms/protons? when they were creating the super computer, some thing tried to stop them and the conclusion was that the death of civilizations was too routine to car about earth.

[u/Orphan_Guy_Incognito → u/Substantial_Army_639]

It isn't contradictory anyways.

Trisols communicate by sci-fi brainwaves which make it impossible to dissemble (they basically think at one another) but this doesn't stop them from having individual opinions.

A guy was working a radio antenna, got a signal and went "Oh, babe, you should stop talking because we will straight murk you."

[u/jdiskxkfidobsvsgdi → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

I thought he said that the trisolarans would conquer earth because they knew life was there? Or was it different in the show?

[u/Chrono_Tata → u/[deleted]]

Even without the risk of complete extinction, the bad periods would cause widespread death and destruction on their planet and set back their progresses by centuries. Like if we could find a planet similar to Earth that can support life without natural disasters like hurricanes, earthquakes or volcanic, and have the capability to move people there, we probably would

[u/GrapeJellyVermicelli → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

It's not really about shutting earth up. The Trisolarans want earth because their home planet is doomed to eventually crash into one of their suns. They want to live in a stable solar system. They need earth quiet only in as much as they need earth to keep existing for their own needs and that's why they send the sophons.

[u/NinjerTartle → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Yeah, but I think you missed the point. The alien is seemingly withholding information from others of its own telepathic race. It learns of humanity's existence, but implies it will keep it a secret. That was the point.

[u/TheGentlemanDM → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Isn't the Dark Forest Theory named after the second book in that series?

[u/Anti-BobDK → u/TheGentlemanDM]

Yes, according to Wikipedia at least. But there has been different variations of the theory with different names.

[u/Competitive-Bee-3250 → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Thats not quite what it was, it was saying "others of my kind may learn of the existence of a nearby habitable world if you continue to broadcast, and they will come to claim your world."

[u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Is dark forest theory the one where there's the belief that there is plenty of advanced civilisations but there's an even more advanced "predator" to these civilisations?

[u/Saw_Boss → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

That's just entirely wrong, that concept didn't exist until the second book.

The alien was a pacifist, just trying to prevent a war. Which is why the lady said "that sounds fucking cool, bring it on"

The aliens responding is only likely to risk an attack on them, so it wouldn't make any sense.

[u/Chaos_Philosopher → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

I've always held that was a bigger plot hole than the nonsense of the misunderstanding of the three body problem and what the three body problem actually is.

[u/bediaxenciJenD81gEEx → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Is that the explanation in the show? Because that's not at all the reason for the message from the Trisolarans in the book.

The Trisolaran listener at the outpost receives that data about Earth, realises it's a paradise relative to trisolaris, and believes human society to be much more valuable than the society that has formed on his home planet. He knows his people will invade Earth and wipe out humans, and as a misanthrope (towards his own people), he chooses humanity over his own people. The point is that he's a mirror of Dr Ye, they both are disillusioned with their own species and think anything else is the better alternative. 

The Trisolarans themselves aren't part of the Dark Forest, they aren't the silent hunters who shoot anyone who makes noise. They are in a desperate situation and want to invade Earth. 

[u/nekiobichanlik → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

They didn't come to shut us up, they came to take our planet, cause theirs sucks.

[u/Legitimate_Pick2737 → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Please add a spoiler to your last sentence.

"If you don't stop shouting, and possibly atrracting even bigger predator, we'll be forced to come and annihilate your species to shut you up"

It's not so much being forced to come and annihilate their species to shut them up as much as a second signal revealing their location enabling the Santi to discover their world and migrate there.

They didn't know where Earth was until they received a second signal because, given that the second signal was sent immediately upon receiving the response by the Santi, it told them the exact distance to this Earth. Until then it could have been anywhere.

Maaaaaajor book spoiler:

It wasn't until the Gravity sent out Gravitywaves revealing the location of Trisolaris that this actually attracted the attention of any more advanced species. Partially because Earths mode of transmission was the equivalent of a message by carrier pigeon nowadays. Anyone that hasn't read the series, please consider it before reading further.

After that it took another couple of decades to centuries for any species to connect this primitive communication to the already destroyed Trisolaris and get around to actually destroying humanity. I personally loved the depiction of humanities executioner being a low level administrator just doing his 9 to 5.

[u/Nothing_from_void → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

My favorite thing about the Dark Forest Theory is that if you go to actual dark forests, the animals in them are very noisy. If a spot is quiet it's generally because there's not enough food/water around to support animal life very well

[u/Ebolamonkey → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

But they were intending to come and conquer their planet? It's not until the next two books that they up and leave with liu ji's plan to reveal the location of Earth to the rest of the universe. 

[u/Melodic_Assistant_58 → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

They wanted to occupy Earth because one of the chaotic seasons would be chaotic enough it would destroy the planet. If they didn't need Earth they would just destroy the solar system like most civilizations would have upon discovering it.

[u/BeepItsSean → u/Aggravating-Reach473]

Dark forest was a great book too imo

[u/Stormjoy07 → u/rinart73]

There was a single line in the book about this. I don't remember the words, but basically a Santi could act as a spy in Santi society up until somebody asked them if they were a spy, whereupon they'd just answer 'yes'. They never withheld information, they were just able to not volunteer information freely.

[u/MindlessMage777 → u/Stormjoy07]

Currently reading the book again actually. It's not so much being asked, it's that as soon as another focuses on them and becomes aware of their mind, they know the truth.

So basically you can "spy" on them from a distance, like a scout looking for a camp or something, but you'd never have James Bond

[u/Sable-Keech → u/MindlessMage777]

You could have James Bond but he'd have to be mute because the moment he speaks anyone who hears him will instantly know he's lying.

[u/minty_soda → u/[deleted]]

James Bond is a great example because it usually takes about 0.5 seconds before every important bad guy character knows that Bond is up to something

[u/horned-creature → u/rinart73]

the guy was forced to dehydrate and burned in the book, he basically sacrificed himself.

also the san-ti can technically hide information from one another by simply not meeting or not communicating other san-ti, it is said that they share their whole knowledge automatically with each other every time they meet.

[u/elkman_23 → u/horned-creature]

In the books he was forced to remain alive, not dehydrated. His punishment was to survive until Earth was conquered and he could see it himself, witnessing his failure to stop it

[u/tochimo → u/horned-creature]

The ones that were dehydrated and burned were all of the other Santi who had similar mindsets to the one who got the message and tried to deter further communication, including their superiors who had not screened for this. As Elkman_23 said, the Santi who heard the message and responded for them to not respond was told their punishment was to live to see the conquoring of Earth.

[u/Legitimate_Pick2737 → u/[deleted]]

They don't though. They can't hide information in person and while they could with long distance communication, absolute truthfulness with each other also became culturally ingrained which meant they never started this practice either.

[u/TeddyBearToons → u/rinart73]

You know when you're about to do something you know is a bad choice, and you have that little voice in your head telling you "hey let's step back real quick and think about this" but you do it anyway?

That one santi might be like that little voice. It's there, and the collective knows it's there, but that one dissenting voice is overridden by the rest of the collective.

[u/ADH-Dad → u/TeddyBearToons]

They're not a hive mind or telepathic, they're just not physically capable of lying to each other.

[u/Ocachino → u/rinart73]

In the book, the single transmission wasn’t enough to locate earth. A second transmission would allow the trisolarans to locate the source of the transmission

[u/SmegmaUnicorn → u/Ocachino]

Exactly. This is exactly why the rouge one warns against further transmissions. A lot of people are missing this point. 

[u/DrBalistic → u/rinart73]

No it got discovered if I recall. They are capable of just not telling people things, but are incapable of fabricating convincing lies.

[u/ReverendGraves85 → u/DrBalistic]

This is actually also not true because they discover the concept of lying through storytelling.

But the ENTIRE PREMISE is built off of relaying a fictionalized version of their history through storytelling. They ABSOLUTELY understand the concept at a basic level. They would need to.

[u/Sable-Keech → u/ReverendGraves85]

They didn't relay the fictionalized version of their history. The human members of ETO used human history as a stand-in to make it more understandable for firstcomers.

[u/licoricenipple → u/ReverendGraves85]

Are you talking about the Three Body game? They didn't design that, their human allies did (and it's established that they don't really understand a lot of what their human allies are talking about), and it isn't presented as an actual account of their history. They're not claiming that Copernicus and Newton existed on their world. It's just an "If this happened, what would you do?" hypothetical exercise that happens to approximate their actual situation. The players understand the game to be an imaginary scenario so there's no deception going on.

That's well within their understanding, they can imagine hypotheticals and they have the concept of omitting information. They omit information themselves and are aware that humans can omit information, that's part of why they spy the way they do. They just don't have the concept of thinking one thing but saying another.

[u/DM-me-naughty-Cats → u/ReverendGraves85]

IIRC they had help with how to lie

[u/Tman-The-Tdog → u/rinart73]

Essentially, it boils down to lying vs. omitting information. The Santi cannot physically lie if they’re asked a question. However, if they aren’t asked about something then they don’t need to talk about it.

[u/Meme_Pope → u/rinart73]

Honestly, we don’t talk about any of the shit that happens in the first book from the Santi’s perspective.

The rogue Santi trying to warn them and the whole sequence with their leadership trying to develop the Sophons really doesn’t fit with how they’re characterized in the rest of the series. From then on, their entire civilization is a black box and it’s way more interesting that way.

The 4th book is literally canonized fanfic and mostly sucks, but the one good idea it had is explaining that the Santi are insects the size of ants and only have intelligence collectively, which explains the lack of lying, but also directly contradicts the way they are in the first book

[u/Ilga2 → u/Meme_Pope]

How do? I think the Rouge Santi in particular did a god job showing the reader that the santi are individuals instead of a unified group with unified ideas

[u/SmegmaUnicorn → u/Meme_Pope]

The rogue Santi trying to warn them and the whole sequence with their leadership trying to develop the Sophons really doesn’t fit with how they’re characterized in the rest of the series.

This isn’t at all true. The Santi aren’t a hive-mind…the idea that there can’t be differing points of view between individual memebers of the species is silly. AND this particular member was definitely punished for trying to ‘help’ humanity. 

[u/Altruistic_Fun_6985 → u/Meme_Pope]

God I hated that fourth book

[u/Noe_b0dy → u/rinart73]

I assume that specific guy was just willing to die when his superiors showed up and asked him what was up.

[u/royalemperor → u/rinart73]

The Santi in that scene wasn't lying, but if he wanted to lie, he could have.

This was a dumbed down explanation someone gave that made it easy for me:

Imagine not being able to have internal thoughts. That little voice in your head doesn't exist. Instead, every thought you have is now physically displayed on your body and vocalized out-loud. If you try to lie you immediately contradict yourself. Try to hide info, you immediately spill the beans at the same time. ect.

Also, whenever they mate both mates gain each other's memories, and kids are born with their parent's memories. So not really a hive mind, they're all individuals, but everyone's memories are very similar.

That's how it's always been for the Santi. It's t's not that they can't lie, it's just that the idea of lying never took hold in their population because it has no benefit at all. It's biological though, so it's proximity based. That Santi can still send a text message that's a lie, he'll just be yelling out loud "IM LYING IN THIS TEXT MESSAGE" while he's saying it, but the recipient of that text wouldn't know that.

This lead to a cultural nonexistence of lying though too, and everything that entails. No metaphors, no stories, no concept of camouflage, or misdirection, ect.

[u/BDSMChef_RP → u/rinart73]

No, that Santi was punished almost immediately for his crime. THe books do explain he's left behind on their world to see the refugee fleets leave. He chose to damn his own life in the eyes of his species to give another world a prayer of a chance to survive. He knew full well it was at the cost of his own life, but felt that destroying another species would be evil.

[u/AccNumber77 → u/BDSMChef_RP]

Not quite at the cost of his own life, Listener 1379 appears again in the third book after all the fuckery that was the start of the broadcast era and talks to one of the characters though it eludes me which one specifically, I think it was Cheng Xin.

[u/Sable-Keech → u/rinart73]

He didn't hide anything. That specific Trisolaran (I'm not going to call them Santi) was an isolated message monitor. He was all alone in a listening station, while the rest of the species was hibernating through a Chaotic Era. He received Ye Wenjie's message first, before anyone else got it, and he decided to take it upon himself to respond without consulting his superiors.

When they awoke during a Stable Era and found out what he did they were furious.

[u/BestDescription3834 → u/rinart73]

He could hide the information because other San-ti could not see him at the time.

It's not telepathy, but more like changing skin patterns. They developed it that way because they needed to communicate complex ideas as fast as possible because of how quickly an unstable era could begin.

[u/RedMarten42 → u/rinart73]

That Santi did not hide any information, their job was to listen for aliens and report back to their superiors if they heard any, the alien disobeyed orders and communicated with the human by telling them truthful information. They only disobeyed orders by warning the humans to hide themselves, the concept of hiding is different from lying. The Santi that communicated with humanity is found out by their superiors and immediately admits to what they did and accepts their punishment. They knew they were committing suicide, but wanted to help humans.

[u/TheBlitzStyler → u/rinart73]

why doesn't santi want their speciss to come to woman

[u/rustyspoon07 → u/rinart73]

They can't keep secrets from eachother but they do have free will as individuals. In the book, the Santi who warned Ye (humans) not to transmit was "going rogue" by doing so, and they were sentenced to life in prison or something. 

[u/ADH-Dad → u/rinart73]

It's not so much that they can read each other's minds, it's that their brains broadcast their thoughts in the form of electromagnetic waves that they see as colors of light. Basically like octopuses or chameleons.

[u/harveytent → u/rinart73]

I think it makes sense they needed 2 transmission. Then there is no traitor Santa, the message was just the honest truth. One more message and you will be found, you will be conquered. It was the truth.

[u/cromcru → u/rinart73]

That individual was cloistered away alone to monitor transmissions in a part of the sky. There was no hiding its actions from its superiors, and it made an independent judgment to tell humans to be quiet and hide. They’re individuals but their thoughts are known to others nearby when they occur.

[u/Putrid-Poet → u/rinart73]

I also haven't read the book. But what I don't understand from the TV show is that Santi say they don't have the concept of lying, and humans just take their word for it? Why couldn't Santi be lying about not lying?

[u/Dzsekeb → u/Putrid-Poet]

I havent watched the tv show, but in the books they dont just say that, they dont have the concept of lying. It becomes apparent from their behavior and confusion as the ETO communicates with them. They do start understanding the concept as the story unfolds.

[u/ThorirPP → u/rinart73]

They aren't literally telepathic in the sense that they share thoughts all the time, nor are they a hivemind (though some fans have that misconception), their communication just involves directly transmitting their thoughts, no way to think one thing and say another. It's instinctive, automatic, built into the way they communicate, they can't deceive through falsehoods because their communication directly showcases their inner thoughts

But they can still deceive and hide, as they very much do on Earth, through omission and not speaking. For them, communication means truth, so to withhold truth is to not communicate. In the case if the first responder, they were alone when the message from earth reached then, and sent back immediately to not to respond (one message gives a direction, two gives exact location). They aren't a hive mind, that individual could have their own thoughts and opinions and make their own decision without anyone else being aware until they ask

Now, this automatic truth in their communication plus the extreme catastrophies they've endured does result in a very dogmatic culture which punishes individualism and deviation from the rest, so they do come across as very one-minded and hivemind like from the outside point if view, but they are still very much individual beings

[u/Sad-Base-8689 → u/rinart73]

More like they were saying the humans to stop screaming into the void as it made it possible for others to find them. After that transmission its a good chance they never could've found earth if earth would've just stopped transmitting.

[u/UniversalAdaptor → u/rinart73]

That one pacifist santi did not have the information of earths location. They needed earth to reply so they could pinpoint where the reply came from.

[u/Odd_Anything_6670 → u/rinart73]

Even in the show one of the Sophons explains that “what is known to one is known to all” implying that information is shared involuntarily.

Which does raise the issue that this intelligent machine has been observing humanity for long enough to have mastered human communication and developed an understanding of human history and psychology without becoming aware that humans possess the capacity for intentional deception, which makes it look a bit silly. But I get that the point is that it’s a kind of cultural blindness to the concept of lying.

[u/willy_koop → u/rinart73]

The specific Santi’s reply was not hidden from others, his superiors found out and punished him.

[u/Spacemonster111 → u/rinart73]

He isn’t able to hide it. He’s executed the next day for treason

[u/Summoarpleaz → u/rinart73]

It doesn’t really bother me that they couldn’t lie… but it does bother me that in the show they didn’t know humans were capable of lying when they basically had been spying on every human for a long time by that point. It took the guy reading a story to the santi for them to understand that.

[u/AdminClown → u/rinart73]

Who said he hid that information from others?

[u/holdmyspot123 → u/rinart73]

The book addresses that

[u/Chaos_Philosopher → u/rinart73]

Nope that guy was executed by his people for the crimes he committed of warning her.

[u/sleeper_shark → u/rinart73]

The whole thing is silly cos in the books they learn to lie later on.. so the idea of them not being biologically able to is BS.

[u/Wesselton3000 → u/rinart73]

> Sorry I haven’t read the book yet

Yeah, neither did OP or like half the people in this thread.

[u/Angryfunnydog → u/rinart73]

He wasn’t lying, and he was instantly apprehended on their side as traitor, they aren’t retarded, they may not tell what they don’t want to tell - but if they tell something - they can’t tell you wrong information

That’s why in the series it was really stupid moment when this katana lady just came and told their whole plan involved sofons to humans because “we can’t lie”, yeah but this didn’t mean they can’t just ignore your questions lol, in the book they found out about their plan by hacking hard drive of santi fan club

[u/FaxyMaxy → u/rinart73]

Don’t remember exactly how the tv show handles it, but in the books the Trisolaran (they are only called the Santi in the show) is shown to not be able to hide the information from the leaders on Trisolaris, and is explicit that the first transmission is not enough to locate earth, but a second transmission would be.

[u/abacuz4 → u/FaxyMaxy]

San-Ti is actually the original Chinese name, “Trisolaran” is just the translation.

[u/AsstacularSpiderman → u/rinart73]

At the time he was being 100% truthful.

The moment the other Trisolarans found the transmission he told them what he did.

[u/Thick-Protection-458 → u/rinart73]

No, even if that one will be interrogated - the information they will get will only tell that there are inhabitable planet somewhere in that direction cone. It won't tell how far - 4 light years (which they barely made), 40 (would not be reachable with some breakthrough), 400 (completely out of luck)?

So they are not hiding information from the rest of their species, but preventing them from getting actually useful information.

[u/Cresspacito → u/rinart73]

Can't see that anyone has mentioned it but in the books I believe it is said that the San Ti communicate directly via their thoughts. It's implied/readers have inferred that this is a visual form of communication (which lines up with their ability to form a calculator from millions of soldiers and hundreds of mathematicians during a pre-technological era)

[u/NakamiNier → u/rinart73]

They can and do conceptualize deception. They're just incredibly bad at it because of how they communicate. A San-ti could lie over a radio transmission but it would be pointless, because if questioned in person they'd immediately reveal the truth.

This makes the whole concept of lying an academic curiosity not something seriously useful.

[u/spartaman64 → u/rinart73]

a character tried to teach them to lie with the little red riding hood story and the santi said if the wolf didnt want the girl to know hes a wolf then he shouldnt have spoken with her.

[u/savage_mallard → u/Meme_Pope]

I also believe they can learn how to do the basics. I don't think it's impossible for them to do with remote communication, but they realise we do it all the time. We are constantly doing it and engaging in advanced levels of subterfuge and strategic bluffing. They would seem like children lieing to us and could never hope to match our best. 

Our ability to deceive is as far ahead of them as their ability to do physics. It's a tool of unknown strength.

[u/snake-ships → u/savage_mallard]

so the einstein of their species could like, half-convincingly lie?

[u/savage_mallard → u/snake-ships]

Hot dog guy, when hotdog car crashes into the store

"We're all trying to find the guy who did this"

[u/RulingCl4ss → u/Meme_Pope]

In the books the Trisolarans (the santi from the show) communicate using flashes of light if i remember correctly. Their bodies light up whenever they think or talk, the two things are essentially the same, so their method of communication prevents them from being able lie when they are “face to face” (they are never given a physical description on the books so they might not really have faces).

[u/myka-likes-it → u/RulingCl4ss]

I get the impression they are amoeboid.

[u/Return-To-Fender → u/Meme_Pope]

I thought they communicated with the colors of their dermis? They specifically mentioned they have the concept of deception, like infiltrating an enemy base by just not saying you're working for the other side, but their method of communication means they cannot convey information that isn't true. So if a spy, which exists in their culture, is caught, they just say "hey are you working for us" and they are incapable of stating otherwise.

[u/krabgirl → u/Return-To-Fender]

They don't discern thinking from communication, because their thoughts are permanently visible through their skin.
Their In-Person "communication" is instant mind-reading. It's not an action where a person can speak or not speak. They automatically witness the thoughts of others by looking at eachother's naked bodies, and they allow their own thoughts to be read by being visible to others.

They don't understand deception, which requires you to field false information to others. They understand privacy and omission of information by hiding from others.

They learn how to communicate the way we do by inventing telecommunications which does separate thought and messaging. And then they figure out how lying functions by observing humans.

[u/willy_koop → u/Meme_Pope]

They also didn’t invent the arts or literature until they were exposed to human art. I don’t think there’s a direct explanation but it’s implied that it’s because of their efficient, direct communication and extremely rigid social structure.

[u/Jicks24 → u/willy_koop]

That's actually explained that their current society was so focused on survival that anything else was discarded. Literally everything was focused finding a way off world that they didn't make time for art.

[u/Iconclast1 → u/Meme_Pope]

Like any mental process, I don't think people realize how complex that is

[u/CommunicationEast972 → u/Meme_Pope]

It’s insinuated that it’s not telepathic but that their bodies are hollow and you can “see” what other people are thinking. Like an internal projector 

[u/OfficeCharacterCreed → u/Meme_Pope]

Right and maybe the independence day is similar, a little easier to believe, that there society just doesn't need it so its not a threat

[u/NwgrdrXI → u/Meme_Pope]

Same thing wirh the harversters from independence day. They have a hive mind, who would they protect their network from?

[u/ArthurStevensNZ → u/NwgrdrXI]

I think of all the items in the OP the Independence Day one is the weakest.

The technology humans had at the time was reverse engineered from the technology of the crashed craft that the mad scientist in the bunker had been working on for decades. Their tech was quite similar (if not identical) to ours, so Goldblum knew how to give it a "virus".

Its totally plausible that humanity is one of the most technologically advanced species they encountered and most worlds put up near zero resistance, so they had no reason to get antivirus to stop any kind of cyber attacks.

[u/MMAbeLincoln → u/Meme_Pope]

Thank God this is the top comment.

[u/TapCat13 → u/Meme_Pope]

sort of hive mind

[u/Aksama → u/Meme_Pope]

It is absolutely hilarious that OP misconstrued this point about the Trisolarians.

It's a fundamental piece of their civilization that they cannot lie, in an evolutionary manner. There is no "invention" to be had here.

[u/Xentonian → u/Meme_Pope]

Also, their ability to lie is randomly arbitrary. How does metaphor and deception differ from a "lie".

They definitely speak falsehoods and mislead through omission and contradiction, they just don't make blanket false statements. Except, y'know, "you are all bugs". But hey, that's a metaphor so it's different apparently.

[u/Sable-Keech → u/Xentonian]

Oh no no that was definitely a falsehood. It was to represent how the Trisolarans were beginning to learn how to lie whilst communicating, based on what they learned after discussing the concept of stories with Mike Evans.

[u/dohdudeh → u/Meme_Pope]

Also what the fuck are the Santi? They’re never called the once

[u/savage_mallard → u/dohdudeh]

Called that in the show

[u/MindlessMage777 → u/dohdudeh]

I was curious and just looked it up. Santi looks like an abbreviation of the Chinese word for trisolaran. (Sān tǐ rén). Makes it sound better while still technically being faithful to the book, which was originally written in Chinese.

[u/dohdudeh → u/MindlessMage777]

He Netflix show isn’t faithful to the books lol. There is a hong Kong version that is though

[u/Financial_Cup_6937 → u/dohdudeh]

I felt like I was taking crazy pills having read the books three times and watched both the Chinese 30 episode show and the Netflix one. Why the fuck is everyone now calling them the Santi? Someone else explained but it’s like everyone got the memo but us. 

[u/netcereal → u/Financial_Cup_6937]

They're called Santi in the netflix show.

[u/myDuderinos → u/Meme_Pope]

I think they also are some kind of hive-mind, so there would never be a need for "network-secrurity" inside their own society

[u/ninjasaid13 → u/Meme_Pope]

do they even need language then?

[u/Jicks24 → u/ninjasaid13]

They translate and understand earth languages, but the books don't go into if there are different languages or cultures in their society. They're essentially a mono culture.

[u/Kind_Of_A_Dick → u/Meme_Pope]

I’ve only seen the Netflix show but they caught onto lying pretty quick.

[u/curiousscribbler → u/Meme_Pope]

Santi SF nerds probably talk online about "lying" all the time. Should've consulted the Dreamer Fithp

[u/SnippetySnappety → u/Meme_Pope]

if you want a society with no concept of lying, try the book Embassytown

[u/Agitated_Phone_9937 → u/Meme_Pope]

Huh... they don't have telepathy... they communicate by changing the surface of their body. Their thoughts automatically are displayed on their "skin". They can literally ONLY lie with written/digital communication where you cannot see them. They only learned to do this from humans and still they literally cannot do this if you can see them.

Did you people not read the books?

[u/Jicks24 → u/Agitated_Phone_9937]

Most people haven't read the books, and that's normal.

I did, but most just saw a few episodes of the Netflix show and probably didn't even finish that.

[u/Nobody_at_all000 → u/Meme_Pope]

And not even voluntarily. Their thoughts are basically broadcast outward for anyone to hear. Must’ve made forming their totalitarian nightmare society much easier

[u/ThatIsAmorte → u/Meme_Pope]

I don't think it was sharing thought telepathically. Rather, if I remember correctly, their thoughts are visible to others. But it's been a long time since I read the books, I could be misremembering.

[u/Full-Cardiologist476 → u/Meme_Pope]

They don't. Remembering the books, they more or less show their thoughts on the outside by being kind of translucent. That's why their army-sized computer could work fast enough to produce results. They for sure caught on to the idea after contact with earth in (books) deterrence era.

[u/Expensive_Amoeba3374 → u/Meme_Pope]

I'd argue that explains the Independence Day one too. The film establishes that they're basically a telepathic swarm ("like locusts"), so the concept of someone with hidden ulterior motives opposed to the groups goals just doesn't occur to them, i.e. no network security. Targeting only technologically inferior species wouldn't generate much need for it either. Usually.

[u/SingleEffect5240 → u/Meme_Pope]

Exactly, there’s not much point in lying when your thoughts are basically an open book. Their whole society would have evolved around a completely different kind of honesty.

[u/sleeper_shark → u/Meme_Pope]

They don't necessarily share thoughts telepathically, I always read it more as their thinking and expressing are simultaneous.

Like you can't control blushing when you're embarrassed, or a boner when aroused. For the Santi it's like that for everything.

But the whole thing is silly cos in the books (minor spoiler) they learn to lie later on

[u/markusw7 → u/Meme_Pope]

In the West of Eden books series, the "Yilane" who are a race of fairly humanoid (in someways) dinosaur descendants are also incable of lying because "body langauge" is a major part of their langauge.

To speak about something is to tell the truth. Only upon contact with humans does one of them learn the concept and use a child to "tell a lie" that they can then "truthfully report" "He said that happened"

[u/suxatjugg → u/Meme_Pope]

Sort of like criticising humans for not having an intuitive understanding of how to fly

[u/mesaoptimizer → u/Meme_Pope]

Yeah it's similar to CJ Cherryh's Regul from Alliance Union/Faded Sun. Humans were able to gain a strategic advantage over them because they don't lie, It's explained that the Regul have idetic memories and long lives the cognitive dissonance of telling a lie is extreme enough that they never developed the capability. They do have concepts of deception, and are able to deceive by lies of omission but can't really make knowingly false statements.

[u/incunabula001 → u/Meme_Pope]

From the books the Santi communicate visually and everyone essentially knows who the other is thinking biologically. That kind of environment prohibits lying. The funny thing is that even the Sophons can’t read minds, hence why the Wallfacer plan was established.

[u/Calm_Ad308 → u/Meme_Pope]

https://giphy.com/gifs/yPG6YsKgTDBE4
I know a pair that can defeat that entire faction with a single sight gag

[u/sillycommenting → u/Meme_Pope]

The Santi are bug type creatures that have a hive mind. So every individual think as one organism.

[u/Deto → u/Meme_Pope]

It seems like they had mechanisms to communicate over distances, though, so you think you could use that to lie even if you couldn't in person.

[u/warrioratwork → u/Meme_Pope]

My impression was their neurons are on their skin and they illuminate. So when they think something, it is on their skin and their thoughts are communicated. Thinking = communicating and that’s why they freak out to learn that we have to work NOT to lie.

[u/enw_digrif → u/Meme_Pope]

Involuntarily too, if I remember right? Think it was something about how nerve-analogs work by photonics, rather than salt gradients, and since they're like, a few mm in length, their thoughts are literally visible at all times.

Which makes lying, or even purposefully omitting facts, functionally impossible. Asking someone about their day means getting surveillance footage as memories are involuntarily recalled.

Also, their society lacked the concept - and possibly the natural capacity to invent the concept - of storytelling, art, and beauty before meeting humans. This was partly due to lacking the need to evolve empathy (e.g. creating a model of mind) and emotional variety. Also, partly because they were so survival-focused that such things were considered a betrayal of the state.

These poor fuckers would yearn for the dizzying freedom enjoyed by those wild libertines lucky enough to be born on Airstrip One.