Characters
[Unintentionally loved trope] "You're supposed to hate this character, not love him!"
Leo Bonhart, Witcher season 4. The show tried to get us to fall in love with the scampy Rats, only for Leo Bonhart, grandiosely played by Sharlto Copley, to slaughter them to the joy and revel of the crowd. The only good part of the wretched 4th season.
EDIT: I don't know who wrote the screenplay for season 4, but by god i hated every second that Leo wasn't on screen, and how do you mess up so epically that the character that you set up to hate is loved by everyone?
Stone Cold Steve Austin, WWF. Introduced as a heel, he really took off on his own in 1996 taking the Stone Cold persona, a beer chugging rebel that regularly insulted the audience and focussed his hatred on Vince McMahon, he was absolutely loved by the crowds.
Lobo from DC Comics was originally meant to be a character meant to be explored and deconstructed referencing tough guys like Wolverine, and basically an exploration saying they suck but everyone liked him so much he started being played straight soon after
There's a whole sub-genre of characters who fit the "oh you like this shit? Fine I've maxed it out to a ridiculous level so you can see how dumb it is!"
..."oh they like it even more now" trope
I feel like Rorschach from Watchmen falls into this too
The knight guy from that Elder Scrolls trailer who ends up 3v1 against 3 player characters.
Edit: removed the word nameless, although in fairness to one who hasn't played the game, the trailer doesn't show his face or anything. He is also defeated in the trailer, so... that seems like a weird choice if he is the main bad guy.
I am not lying when I say that this trailer was the trigger to a new passion in regular but highly skilled fighters in otherwise high fantasy worlds, and that led to my current D&D character
He was a veteran that was staunchly anti war. By day he was a beloved philanthropist working to combat war through charity and diplomacy. By night he was the head of a sceret order focused on ending war by any means necessary. His plot was basically to assassinate all of the faction leaders who kept advocating for war.
Since this is an entirely reasonable and heroic backstory, they made the decision to have him try to kill all the leaders regardless of if they were perpetuating the war. He also fuses with an evil lava monster at some point for the final boss battle.
Dude the fuck cares about those players!? Dude fights 3v1. Holds his own against magic without any magic of his own and actually uses a fucking helmet unlike those 3 morons.
Grabbing an open casting hand and forcing it shut to effectively counter spell it, and havimg redirected the hand into a position he could grab it in the first place using the cross guard of his sword...
Ofc people will root for him with choreography like that
When clips of that fight started showing up all over the internet, I didnt know what it was for or what was supposed to be happen. From how the majority of the fight plays out, it really looks like the single knight is the main character you are supposed to be rooting for. They really didn't do a great job selling the three characters as the focus who you were supposed to side with.
George R R Martin once complained about people liking some of the bad people he wrote in his books, singling out the Hound among them, who I'd argue was the best character of the series.
If GRRM wants us to hate the hound he must not pay attention to his own writing. Badass angry abused man trying to do the right thing despite hating the world and himself for all the shit he’s done
That, and him being so unapologetically honest about being a ruthless brute and warrior makes him inherently one of the most refreshing and endearing characters simply because he rarely bullshits you.
Edit: for a comparison, Blackbeard in One Piece is hated by fans, but is equally respected because he’s one of the few who embraces the fact he’s a fucking pirate.
I really appreciated how he didn't try to say he was a good man just following orders, just that no one that was present, except maybe Arya, really had a right to judge him.
His whole speech to Sansa was spot on. He knew who he was and how the world worked, he just didnt bother to hide behind pretense.
"Look at me! Stannis is a killer. The Lannisters are killers. Your father was a killer. Your brother is a killer. Your sons will be killers someday. The world is built by killers... so you better get used to looking at them."
Arya was the perfect foil for him. She brought in a lens that she does understand the world isn't perfect, but that he was much too cynical in his view about it. And that view gave him a gap close enough to his he felt the duty to explain to her over the course of their travels.
I agree and all, but I feel like the context of this quote being about a child who ran away from being murdered by the hound kind of proves why we aren’t “supposed” to like him.
The problem is that the baseline of most characters in the world is that they've murdered at least one child. Jaime, a character that I feel like GRRM definitely wants everyone to love, started out shoving a child out of a window in an attempt to kill him.
The Hound is just honest about what he is and how bullshit the world around him is. And that's the big reason people like him.
A large amount of the characters will play at being nice upstanding people while being as bad as the hound or worse. The hound is honest about what he is so when you have him doing or trying to do something good you know he’s doing that with full understanding of who he is and you also feel that because he’s honest about how terrible he is, you trust that when it looks like he’s trying to do good you believe him
I will say, GRRM has given the same answers to questions pretty much since he started writing the books (and who can blame him when they get asked over and over and over again?)
The Hound started off a darker shade of grey than he eventually became, and Jaime especially did - his original plan was to have Jaime play more of the villain role, murdering his way to the throne, which is very, very different from how he ended up.
So the Hound may just be his default answer for "Who were you surprised to see people really liked?" and he's always run with it. Especially considering books four and five get you to know Ramsay and Euron, who I'd argue are much more evil than anyone we've met up to that point (only real exceptions being Gregor and Joffrey, but he does make a point to imply Gregor has something wrong with him, like a cancerous brain tumor or something similar, and that Cersei loves Joffrey and that he is only about thirteen or so when he dies in the books).
I was commenting on the aforementioned lack of apology, not whether or not you should feel an impulse to apologize for murdering a terrified child.
I will now mention that yes, you should feel an urge to apologize if you ever find yourself murdering a terrified child, and the absence of that impulse is a very bad sign.
I also think it's because we see glimmers of what he could have been. He's pretty staunch in his beliefs, and he's not given to being cruel just for the sake of being cruel (looking at you, Meryn Trant). There are times he's empathetic and maybe a bit compassionate, and he has convictions. They're pretty bleak convictions, but he holds to them. Sandor, born into the Tyrells, would probably have been a pretty decent knight.
There's probably decent overlap in his women fans with women who date men for their potential, thinking they can fix him.
GRRM is being obtuse if he claims not to understand how women could like The Hound when he wrote Sansa Stark reframing his violent kiss as something more tender and romantic in her own memories of the event.
The Hound was a little more complicated in the books--he's also something of a meta character pointing out the hypocrisy of knighthood and all that--but he's one of the characters that actually didn't get sanitized much coming out of the novels.
I feel the only thing that sanitized from the books is that the book Hound definitely wants to fuck Sansa, while the Hound in the show is more like a protective uncle.
But that’s a sanitizing across the board, half the old male characters in the books are borderline predatory to the young girl characters
TO BE FAAAAIIIIRRRR! In the books Sandor openly acknowledges he could've raped Sansa during the attack on King's Landing, he tells Arya this without any prevarication.
Sandor also admits that he didn't rape her. Though he repeatedly warns Sansa he can, mostly to get her to recognize that the other men around her could easily do so, but that he is explicitly not.
When King's Landing is burning down and Sansa has a chance to run away with Sandor, he begs her to in a way that does come off as hoping she would run away with him. Wink wink. But frames it as him taking her to family.
Sansa doesn't trust that Sandor would actually protect her, so she stays behind, which she admits she regrets.
Before 'The Hound' dies he aggressively tells Arya he could've easily raped and killed her sister, mostly as a way to goad her into killing him.
I do think Sandor loves Sansa, and weirdly does respect her boundaries each time, her decision making, and her consent. But to say he's bad out-and-out is weird, especially when the books seem to be setting up a character turn (because the next isn't written) the Septon saying repeatedly "THE HOUND" died when folks asked if Sandor was alive still, and refusing to say Sandor. When someone points out his horse is here, and there's a gigantic bastard of man tending fields who won't let them see his face, the Septon just waves them away with "THE HOUND died. THE HOUND." So his character has even had sort of a redemption arc, and was (outside of murder, of course) the only one to respect Sansa's consent. Ever.
Edit: timeline.
One more Edit: the song "the Bear and the Maiden Fair" is a gigantic signal to their relationship. Same as with Brienne and Jamie (more literally) and Jorah and Danny.
The major thing the show did was age up a lot of characters which in turn gave certain characters a lot more depth than they had in the books. Robert, just as an example, is in his mid 30s in the book. The show version where he’s sort of this medieval version of a retired football player who’s still obsessed with his glory days is much more sympathetic than a guy who’s the same age as dudes on teams winning the Super Bowl right now. It’s not universal though, aging up Robb made him feel like much more of a moron when book Robb is supposed to be a teenager. And I think book Jorah is significantly more of an interesting character because he doesn’t suffer from the writers trying to juggle the creepy pedophile traitor becoming super popular with women who liked the show.
George R. R. Martin was more surprised and confused as to why Sandor "the Hound" Clegane was popular with the WOMEN among his readers.
To put it into perspective, GRRM's idea of the type of guy whom girls are into is Jon Snow, whom Martin admitted was supposed to be the magnet for female readers.
He also infamously wrote an emo character who sounds like he is saying nu-metal lyrics called darkstar and GRRM thought he would be super cool with readers.
The scene where he is defending Loras from his brother and kneels a death blow when Robert yells stop in the name of your king is one of the coolest fuckin scenes in the whole show
There's no way to write a compelling anti hero type without making him seem cool.
The Hound is fed up with all bullshit chivalry play acting and accepts what he is; a killer. He doesn't dress it up or make excuses. To the reader, who can see that true believers in the oaths knights take are as rare as flying pigs, that makes him a more relatable and sympathetic character.
Now, my personal head canon is that Sandor was just biding his time as the Lannister's attack dog hoping that one day Gregor would do something so terrible that even Tywin couldn't ignore it but would want it handled quietly and the Hound would finally get what he had always wanted.
To be fair, I think Rory McCann's excellent portrayal in the show kind of sanitizes how we often remember him from the books. That plus since the ASOIAF world is so dark, it's easy to forget he kills a child pretty early on, thinks about raping Sansa, and serves as Joffrey's obedient lapdog throughout the first two books.
Also, IIRC, GRRM's comments were more about being surprised female readers were attracted to the Hound when he wrote him as ugly and with his face scared.
Mad Dog from The Raid. If they wanted me to hate him they shouldn't have made him so badass. He frees the main guys brother because he thinks a 2v1 would be more fair for them.
The way he executes three (five?) men with a firearm, goes to his desk to grab more bullets, and just uses the hammer in his desk drawer instead was so cold.
It wasn't like he went there to get the hammer. He just saw it and was like, "you know what, that could be fun!"
I haven’t seen too much of Supernatural, just a bit when my parents were watching it, but I loved when there was a Hellhound after someone then you see Crowley, apparently with his own Hellhound and he pats its back (which is practically shoulder-height with him) and Crowley says “but mine’s bigger. Sick ‘em, boy!”
And has his hound attack the other one to defend them
Something of the opposite of this in the show is Lucifer; he was a phenomenal antagonist in Season 5 and the fans all loved him but in the later seasons he was just awful.
By the time he comes back you know he's just a whiney bitch, his dad is an asshole, and everything said about him taking his family issues out on Earth was true.
I actually haven’t seen this show or his character but I want to point out there are two types of “the audience loves the character”
There is the “the audience loves the character and doesn’t think he’s bad like the author writes” like the Hound for example or roscharh from what I’ve seen on this thread.
And there’s “the audience knows he is evil but they like him because he’s so evil” and I would say it’s like…Hannibal lector (Anthony Hopkins or mikelson) or maybe tons of had guys from Disney movies like Scar or Hades.
He sees the federation Officers like Sisko as his equals among a garden of inferiors and it disgusts Sisko so much.
He treated the entire show as if it's the Gul Dukat show. A terminal narcissist who thinks the problem with the world is how it's full of people who don't understand how great he is and are mean to him because there is something wrong with them
A terminal narcissist who thinks the problem with the world is how it's full of people who don't understand how great he is and are mean to him because there is something wrong with them
But you see the best part about Gul Dukat is that he has boundless patience, compassion and empathy for those who can't see his greatness
He doesn't need to lord it over them all the time. He doesn't need to prove his superiority to anybody
Gul Dukat sees himself as a loving father to all those around him. Sure he has to be stern at times when someone just doesn't want to act in their own interest, but he is baseline jovial and generally willing to indulge you if it doesn't involve him having to clean up after you
My favourite Gul Dukat appearance, that perfectly captures what you've said, is the episode where they trigger the anti-riot system and can't turn it off.
"Attention Bajoran workers... you are valuable and we mean you no harm"
My personal favorite scene with him was, when the DS9 crew accidentally activated the Anti-Rebellion program and he tried to beam away with his typical smug grin on his face. Until he learned, that his superiors didn't trusted him.^^
The Boulder was voiced by Mick Foley who was The Rock's long time tag partner Mankind in the Rock n' Sock Connection. Also funny fact is that The Rock losing the title to Mankind was one of the highest rated TV moments in the 90s. It also was the the turning point in the Mondy Night War between WWF and WCW. It's funny because of The Rock's no lose contract clause for movies.
Haven’t watched the show, but in the books, it’s made pretty clear to the reader that the rats are morally bankrupt and generally just terrible for Ciri.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if the show went the complete opposite direction.
Reading them getting absolutely murdered was their best scene not gonna lie. Especially since the intro to that scene starts with them killing a stable boy whose crime was
was
Not wanting to get robbed
Ciri baby find some drugdealers or something next time.
Edit: Just want to clarify simce the show fucked up the rats baaaaaaad. I do not remotely want to imply that the rats were at all sympathetic (apart from the literal first scene where the leader rescues Ciri) in the books.
I just have a very visceral reaction to shitheads like them. Seeing them die like the fuck ups they were was satisfying
Likewise, Bonhart is even worse. Probably the second or third most evil and cruel character in the series, which is really saying something.
I dropped the show before he shows up, but hearing that he came across even somewhat likeable boggles my mind as to how badly they had to fuck up for that to be the case.
A libertarian working for the government is just a comedic device and someone to play against Leslie’s wide eyed enthusiasm. It’s hard to think of moments where they actually skewer libertarianism and Ron as a character was clearly not written to be hated.
Right. Ron and Leslie, despite having completely opposite views of government, are both fundamentally decent people who are willing to learn from one another because of, not in spite of, their differing viewpoints. As a result, they both grow and improve as people over the years.
Both earnestly believe in their respective political ideologies, rather than just picking some label that kind of fits or sounds better than what they really believe.
It didn’t help that Ron got pretty heavily flanderized into being a big marketing symbol (down to being one of the big faces of the “bacon” movement of 2012). Consequently, the show pushed his badass moments further and further until he was basically a caricature of himself.
Honestly, some of the best episodes with Ron are when he realizes that his rugged cynicism makes him just as prone to making mistakes as Leslie’s naive optimism. And his “badassery” just as quickly turns into him being a petulant child when he doesn’t get his way. The famous “I have a permit” scene ends with him pitching a fit and take his ball home because people take issue with him wanting to butcher a live pig in front of children.
You see the problem is he took all the halfway decent points of libertarianism(as far as I recall) and wasn’t a pedo and didn’t try and build a floating house off the coast of a military dictatorship and didn’t try and make a floating society on a cruise ship while knowing nothing about cruise ships or maritime law and didn’t try and make a floating city despite failing to make a single floating house. The last three of those were actually the same few libertarians(btw, actual quote when talking about the floating cities “piracy is a land problem”). You know what? I need more examples. He wasn’t… a major character in Fallout: New Vegas and he never compared drivers licenses to toaster licenses.
My favorite example of libertarianism = bad is when they tool over a small town that went to hell and got infested with bears eating the trash they left everywhere.
Personally I just love the sea people ones. Something about a couple of idiots who got rich off of crypto repeatedly failing to build themselves a nomadic ocean nation is just funny to me. I highly recommend the Danny Gonzolaz(I can’t spell sry) video about there most recent attempt. I think it’s on his second channel
My favorite story about how dumb capital L Libertarianism is would be the time they took over a small town in New Hampshire to create a “libertarian utopia” only to be overrun by bears.
Charisma and occasional sympathetic lies go a long way in disguising horrific monsters.
The writers still couldn't destroy the actor's charm by making him a literal servant to alien hell demons. I'd argue Dukat was at his most magnetic during that whole storyline.
I'm surprised no one here remembered that Vegeta was made to be hated very early on in Dragonball Z, but because people like him as a villain Toriyama ended up keeping him around, leading to all the development he's had today.
Rorschach from Watchmen.
He’s a slovenly, bigoted and violent vigilante who can’t understand that the world has passed him by and refuses to compromise, even in the face of Armageddon. Unfortunately, he’s the driving force in the investigation of the story, and a lot of the readers grew attached to him.
To add to this the writer of the book Alan Moore has explicitly talked about not understanding why people like him so much.
Also just personally I’d argue at least some of it comes from the movie smoothing out some of his harder edges and making him out to be very bad ass.
Easy example of the former being them removing the part where he defends comedian’s sexual assault on silk spectre as simply one of “the moral lapses of judgement of men who died serving their country”, with him them processing to suggest the accusation probably isn’t true anyway.
And an example of the latter is the movie adding more of a brawl with the cops once he’s out of the building when in the comic he gets taken out much more quickly once outside the building. Or them actually showing the “you’re stuck in here with me scene” when in the comic we simply hear about it in passing from the psychologist’s narration.
Edit: that last one in particular annoys me because I feel that runtime would have been better served showing more of his backstory, as in the comic we get much more and even learn where the mask came from
A lot of folks gloss over the slovenly/stinking bit, but also don't forget indiscriminate! he tortures people who might know something until they convince him they don't.
That said, I'd say the graphic novel's pretty good at making everyone unlikable twats - it's the movie that made people more compelling and sympathetic, but I'd argue that is intentional. I'm not sure Snyder grasped that they were heroes in name only, and nobody was actually good. Best the book managed was "kinda weak and ineffectual".
Tony Soprano, "The Sopranos." He is literally a mob boss. A demonstrably ruthless one, with a short temper and prone to violence when somebody sets him off. And yet, series creator David Chase had to go out of his way several times throughout the show's run to remind audiences that Tony is an irredeemably, objectively reprehensible human being. Because thanks to his status as the protagonist - not to mention the phenomenal work that the late James Gandolphini did to bring Tony to life - people absolutely loved him. The guy had an undeniable charisma to him. Even if he didn't have the makings of a varsity athlete.
But that was the point though, the show was a counter to all the mafia type media like the godfather that made them seem noble and had rules etc. people were romanticizing the mafia with their "code" and traditions blah blah blah.
Tony and all the others broke the rules constantly. It was supposed to make them seem like hypocrites and make them seem small and just plain evil.
It was supposed to make you buy into their charade of "values" and charisma etc, because it's a veneer. Then the show peels back the veneer more and more to show that they're evil and their own petty and gross behavior. Pauly was the more obvious example, he's the one who betrayed Tony after all his idolizing of him, but was gross the whole time. Tony's consigliere was the most likeable, well dressed and mannered, until you see him kill Adrianna and he calls her a filthy cunt right before he shoot's her crawling on the ground. Another example is when Tony's therapist heard about the study about sociopaths and how they can be in therapy but they don't actually get help in it, and just manipulate the therapist into helping the sociopath be more sociopathic. That was the point of that whole subplot, that she realizes he is truly unredeemable and literally worthless as a human and as a research subject. She is supposed to be a mirror for the viewer of the show. Thinking they understand all the machinations of Tony, his background and story that made him who he is, and how it is understandable and worth of empathy. It's right around that time the viewer really seeing the result grotesque stuff like Adrianna, Tony trying to sleep with her, her murder, Christopher's murder, etc. the therapist is supposed to be the viewer. Her revelation of Tony's and the whole crews worthlessness as humans is supposed to mimic the viewers.
Tony or the rest of the sopranos crew don't fit this thread. You're supposed to kind of like them because they say they love family, have a code, blah blah. You're supposed to Cole to the realization they're truly despicable over time. Which is the opposite of this threads intent.
Just a minor pet peeve - Tony's therapy isn't a subplot, it's the literal main plot. The first episode starts with his first visit to Melfi and she drops him as a client in the penultimate.
Which clearly represents the end of his desire to change. So we know, in the end, that no matter if he died in the diner or not, he eventually will die, in a similar place, in a similarly violent way.
His whole family goes through the same arc. Carmela quits trying to change when she gets ripped a new one by her therapist (what a scene that was). Meadow - when she decides to become a lawyer, defending mobsters. AJ is practically his father by the end - seduced by the glamor of money, yet depressed and inflicting violence on others and laughing about it.
The show was Tony's impotent attempt to change. But he didn't, so it ended.
Aegon from House Of The Dragon. Season one thoroughly characterizes him as a piece of shit, but from season 2 onwards, while still a piece of shit, the actor shines and makes the character so likable and fun.
A minor villain in JJK who’s sexist and implied to be a rapist depending how you read it.
Consistently more popular than the main villains and the female leads. Was 5th most popular in the last character poll and inspires many memes. Ironically very popular with female fans
I will say now, Naoya's curse technique is SO COOL, I feel like projection sorcery would be useful in everyday activates as much as combat, like simple repeating tasks, Imagine a dish washer with it able to clean dishes at sub human speeds.
ALSO Naoya being a jerk is what makes me like him, as he's the villain you root to lose.
It doesn't help that he never had a chance. Tortured as a child by scientists entirely devoid of ethics under the employ of an evil corporate empire. No family, no love. He could have actually been Superman, and they made him...that.
The comic book version of him was even more sympathetic as far as I’m concerned. His mind was broken by the belief he had done terrible things without being aware of it.
I mean he deserved what came to him, but you can have some empathy for why he was that way.
He believed there was a realistic chance he actually did those things tho as he never just dismisses it as butcher faking the photos. He also does less awful things outside of what was in the pictures.
Yeah I feel like the people who talk about how being abused doesn't make it okay to be awful really don't get it.
Like, literally no one is as fucked up as him because he didn't just have a shitty environment, alcoholic or violent parents, etc.
Fucking this person up was literally a billion dollar endeavor. There were people who were the top children's psychologists in the world whose entire job it was to abuse him, when he was a child.
Since birth, he had a team of PHDs fucking with his head in an isolated environment. There's no childhood friend, no friendly neighbor, no mentor, fucking nothing.
So yeah, I don't blame the guy for being an absolute monster.
Rick Sanchez. People were idolizing him so much that Dan Harmon had to openly tell everyone that Rick is an asshole who you should pretty much never agree with.
Daemon Targaryen is supposed to be the literal worst of the worst asshole in the series but to the shock of many he is probably outright the most popular and enjoyed character.
Yeah Matt smith is fucking awesome lol. Even in the early seasons of the crown, it’s clear Phillip is supposed to be something of a foil for Elizabeth. He’s always making trouble, cheating on her, chaffing at the role he’s been played in, etc. but Matt smith is so goddamn charming that you barely notice what a pos Phillip is.
Tbf George RR Martin has a boner for Daemon too, to the extent that he’s said he’s one of his favorite characters he’s created (which seems bonkers to me considering how thinly-written the characters in F&B are compared to the main series, but the man likes what he likes, I guess).
My guess is that GRRM has stories in his head that he would like to develop, and Daemon is one of them. Because yeah, there isn’t much to Daemon in the books. Of course, whether those stories will ever be written is a different story.
It’s because that show is written with zero humor or life in it’s characters unlike GOT, so Matt smith being a talented professional who makes him vaguely three dimensional feels like a breath of fresh air. Caveat here, I gave up after a season and a couple episodes, maybe it gets better?
https://giphy.com/gifs/4lsBBIvwGyTo4
Eric Cartman:
Embodies every negative trait a person can have, with pretty much not a single act of virtue that wasn’t done out of manipulation or self preservation but is the most iconic and most fan favorite character of South Park, being the driving force behind the entire show.
I haven't watched Breaking Bad but sounds like Skylar was the "reasonable killjoy" of the plot and while that's appreciated IRL, those characters tend to get hated for trying to stop the plot.
Although to be fair, for several decades he kind of was. Dude was more or less a lesser character compared to the likes of Spiderman, Captain America, or Thor until Demon in a Bottle and the original Ultimates Universe happened.
In addition to what others have mentioned the movies shy away from his rampant alcohol addiction a whole hellva lot more than the comics.
They kinda gently brush on it with him being drunk at a party but in the comics he is more accurately a barely functional alcoholic which if you have ever met one irl know sucks as a person.
The Empire is Space Nazis, and it's not even a little bit subtle. However, they are stylish as hell and just look so damn cool being evil that people are willing to overlook the galactic genocide and fascism.
I mean a lot of shameless characters could fit this but I think Frank is the best answer
Literally a scumbag through and through, alcoholic who screwed over all of his kids and causes nothing but problems for his family the whole show. But his performance is iconic, and he’s a scumbag you love to laugh at and hate
This is comedically exactly what happened with Chloe from Miraculous somehow
To avoid too long of a explanation
She started as a bully and lucked into being a hero for a bit which on all surface writing seemed to show that this was getting her to either be a good person or at least work towards it while also showing that the reason she's a bully in the first place is her mom emotionally abuses and belittles her and her dad doesn't really care about her except to spoil her
Then without having done anything wrong that she could control she was kicked off the heroes team, allies with the villains, devolved into a pure villain and now is treated like she was never good
Despite the writer apparently intending to show she was selfish etc and not worthy of the Bee Miraculous she has a massive fandom following to the point that even after not being a hero for years now in real time she was still voted over her replacement in an official poll
Crowley is all over the place, depending on the season. Doing good while being bad, doing bad while being good, straight up being worse than the devil, or just as comic relief.
But he's ALWAYS charismatic and entertaining as fuck.
Even after some of the really heinous shit he's pulled, he usually gets a pass.
Toriyama killed him off in the Frieza saga and he himself didn't like him. But he became a fan favorite and fans demanded for him to be brought back. And so he got revived and is integral to the story now.
Thats kind of unfair because when he made his first appearance. Dude had zero story. Like all he did in the original phantom menace was harass the heroes, kill Qui-gon then get bisected.
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u/Pyrotwilight 20d ago
Lobo from DC Comics was originally meant to be a character meant to be explored and deconstructed referencing tough guys like Wolverine, and basically an exploration saying they suck but everyone liked him so much he started being played straight soon after