[Interesting Trope] The Writers Wanted You To Sympathize With Them But The Audience Still Doesnt

[u/EmergencySpare7939]

The Boys Lamplighter is supposed to be seen as a tragic character, who killed Mallory's grandchildren by mistake, and between that and his dreams of becoming famous for his father, has become a depressed Death Seeker. However, some felt this failed to make sympathetic, because he is introduced helping test Compound V, even killing people who Stormfront is displeased with, and isn't shown doing anything to help people he himself claims need it. This isn't helped by the fact that when he and Hughie are in the Seven Tower, Lamplighter sets himself on fire activating the alarms and alerting the building with little regard to what might happen afterward. Worse, his personality after escaping and hiding with the Boys makes him seem like an asshole who forces Hughie to watch porn that makes him uncomfortable. These traits make it hard to see him as a tragic character for some viewers.

Victoria in the Season 4 finale tries to pull a "Not So Different" Remark on Hughie, calling him on Butcher chopping off Sameer's leg so he could make more of the supe-killing virus, never mind that she was the one who put him in that position in the first place. In any case it pales in comparison to the numerous people she murdered and deceived during her rise to power, as well as turning her own daughter into a monster, who then committed murder herself. Given that her attempted turn to good was brought about more because she realized she'd have no power if she got elected president, she comes across less as being motivated to protect Zoe and more trying to dodge consequences now that her Karma Houdini Warranty has run out. Her sudden death comes across as very karmic rather than the Villain's Dying Grace it was ended as.

Justice League Cadmus the writers of this show has stated that Project Cadmus, the anti-Justice League government think tank in the fourth season, were supposed to be sympathetic Anti Villains with a strong point about the dangers of unrestricted superhumans. In fact, the writers found Cadmus so sympathetic that they introduced a Conflict Killer in the form of Brainiac so he could be revealed as having been manipulating both sides to avoid having to paint either Cadmus or the League as in the wrong. Fans, on the other hand, overwhelmingly sided with the League, considering Cadmus's deeds included attempting to nuke an inhabited island simply to kill Superman and Doomsday, creating Doomsday to begin with, manufacturing an army of cloned Slave Mooks and sending them to massacre the League, including the completely innocent Watchtower staff, and teaming up with supervillains including Lex Luthor, all before the League had done much of anything to them. If anything, the audience viewed Cadmus causing all that shit just to get justification for what they do.

[u/Pencils4life]

Fuck this man, Endeavor should have been Stain's first target. Abusive, eugenics loving piece of shit.

https://giphy.com/gifs/k1f7OBaUV8ctRjFky1

[u/SylveonSof → u/Pencils4life]

I think that's a very childish take. Endeavour is absolutely a horrible human being and everyone in his life has the right to hate him, I don't blame the 2nd oldest son for cutting contact. But that doesn't mean that's all Endeavour has to be.

People can change, and while nothing will ever undo the harm he's caused, he's not wrong for trying to improve and make amends. I think it's actually a very fair and realistic portrayal of a piece of shit person struggling to change.

If you only hold people to the worst version of themselves, what's the point of anyone getting better?

I say all of this as the child of two abusive parents, one of whom hasn't changed, and one of whom has. We're not on the warmest terms, but I've chosen to move on even if I can't fully forgive my dad for all that happened. He's not perfect, but he has changed, and he's trying.

[u/Nassuman → u/SylveonSof]

Yeah the narrative doesn't try to make what he did sympathetic or justifiable in any way. His actions have severe consequences that are not fully resolved by the end of the series. But it does show that he is actively doing the hard part of trying to not just be better but to try and salvage what's left in his wake. And to be clear, no one forgives him completely, but they do show compassion and love in a way that doesn't hurt them.

[u/MonsutaReipu → u/SylveonSof]

And he's not even an example of a character the writers want you to sympathize with. He's never portrayed as anything other than an abusive asshole of a father. His family's story is about him trying to cope with the fact that they hate him, and them trying to cope with the fact that their father sucks. He tries to make amends, but it barely works and he's not really forgiven. This is a pretty relatable story for a lot of people with shitty dads.

Like this is also just basic storytelling. Not every character that has their shitty behavior explained or put into context is the writer trying to get you to sympathize with them. An autobiography of a serial killer would detail how shitty their childhood was, abusive and absent parents (universally true for almost all of them), but this detail doesn't make you sympathetic. That's not the point of it.

[u/coolchris366 → u/SylveonSof]

Nice to see a sensible take. I also liked that he resolved to change and we actually see him make these decisions and actively try.

[u/Formal_Prune8040 → u/SylveonSof]

People can change but the world owes them nothing for the harm they have done

[u/TheRedditGirl15 → u/SylveonSof]

I think the reason they said this is because Stain canonically despises Endeavor and yet one of the very few heroes he was shown attacking (Ingenium I) did literally nothing to even somewhat deserve it. Him targeting Endeavor just makes more narrative sense (especially since Endeavor was already in Hosu to track down Stain anyway) and he doesnt even have to succeed at killing the guy

[u/TankMain576 → u/SylveonSof]

There are some things it's impossible to atone for. Murder and rape are definitely on that list.

[u/GreenCreep376 → u/TankMain576]

He doesn't murder anyone in the series though? Also calling him a rapist because he tried to run an eugenics program is a bit of an exaggeration.

[u/Any-Question-3759 → u/[deleted]]

Bro wants to hate a fictional dude so bad he’s just making headcanon for shit he didn’t even do.

Got any fanfic about him going back in time and killing Princess Diana?

[u/Pugsanity → u/Any-Question-3759]

Does it have him teaming up with a twelve year old John Mulaney to pull the hit off?

[u/GreenCreep376 → u/[deleted]]

Except, from the way the rest of the family describes it, he only started getting abusive, after the birth of Shoto and he stopped having kids with her after that so I find it very likely. 

If he was, it would have definitely been noted by Toya in flashbacks yet from what's shown it was normal until Shotos birth.

[u/SylveonSof → u/TankMain576]

And yet these people will live on. And we can choose to either try to rehabilitate them, help them change and improve, or we can execute them or toss them in a cell for the rest of their life.

Which one sounds more productive and healthy for society to you?

If someone refuses to change, fine. But someone who genuinely regrets their choices? Who wants to do better? I think they should be given the chance to.

[u/North-Research2574 → u/SylveonSof]

You can want to change but that doesn't mean your crimes are forgiven nor that you should get the chance to atone. Not everyone deserves a redemption and everything he was he deserved to be put the fuck down

[u/SylveonSof → u/North-Research2574]

I don't think that's a productive or especially healthy outlook

[u/Pencils4life → u/SylveonSof]

That's not even the biggest issue I have I love a good redemption arc. But his design is terrible, hos powers are boring, in a series with Kamui Woods, Gang Orca, Fat Gum, and a literal dragon lady, why the fuck are stuck following the redemption of Temu Vegeta? You can be a piece of shit, but you can't be a piece of shit and boring. Same goes for you Dabi!