r/TrueChristian • u/thetruegambler • 8d ago
Eternal security - Verse versus verse
One of the most intriguing debates within Christianity to me is the “once saved, always saved” dilemma.
Christianity seems torn on the issue - some believing in it, and some not.
One verse brought up by the “once saved always saved” crowd is when God says “depart from me, for I NEVER knew you.” Suggesting God only turned away people who were never saved to begin with, and not those who knew God at any time during their life.
One verse that sounds eerily in contrast with this is one I came across in proverbs 2:19 “none who go to [the immoral seductress woman] RETURN - nor do they REGAIN the paths of life.”
If GOD only commanded those who never knew Him at any time to depart, but proverbs says those who go to an immoral woman cannot REGAIN/RETURN to life, the verse in proverbs suggests the person who went to the immoral woman had life at one time and lost it, because how could you RE-gain something or RETURN to something you’ve never been to?
I’ve seen so many wise believers with a similar story of they were saved when they were young like high school age, then in their 20’s they “back slid” and got into drugs or other sins, but then “return to the faith” in their 40’s or 50’s…. I always wonder what would happen to this person’s soul if they had died in their 30’s without the chance to return to the faith? Unless it is GOD’s plan to allow those He knows will return to the faith to stay alive until they come back into the fold.
Sorry if this is lengthy, just curious about your opinions - which I have asked in the past. I anticipate many will come in with perspectives from both sides of the argument… but I find beauty (yet fear) in this intriguing debate.
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u/Caddiss_jc 8d ago
Great question, and I respect that you're wrestling with the text instead of just picking a side.
Let me take the two verses first. In Matthew 7:23 (NRSV), Jesus says, "I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers." Notice the word "never." He doesn't say, "I used to know you." These are people saying "Lord, Lord," and pointing to everything they did in his name, and he tells them there was never a relationship. That verse is about people who were never his.
Proverbs 2:19 says about the adulteress, "Those who go to her never come back, nor do they regain the paths of life." I'd be careful building a salvation doctrine on that one. Proverbs is wisdom literature, a father warning his son in strong language about how deadly that road is and how hard it is to climb out of. "The paths of life" is about the way of wisdom, not a statement on whether someone is saved. And Proverbs itself shows it isn't absolute, because 24:16 says, "for though the righteous fall seven times, they rise again."
So I don't think the two verses are in conflict, because they aren't talking about the same thing.
Now to your real question, what if that person died in their 30s? Scripture shows a believer can fall hard and still belong to God. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul deals with a man in serious sexual sin, and he says the goal is "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord" (5:5). Paul was disciplining him, not writing him off.
And here's the heart of it. Salvation depends on who is holding you, not on how well you hold on. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28). Paul says, "if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13). God also goes after his kids. Hebrews 12:6 says, "the Lord disciplines those whom he loves." A wandering child gets pursued, not abandoned.
To be fair, some people who walk away for good may never have been his to begin with (1 John 2:19), staying until the end is proof of true salvation. and only God sees the heart. And folks who hold the other view will point you to passages like Hebrews 6 and John 15, so read those too and test it for yourself, like the Bereans did.
As for the "fear" you mentioned, I think a healthy fear is good, because sin really does wreck lives. But our assurance doesn't come from watching ourselves. It comes from the cross, and he finishes what he starts.
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u/thetruegambler 8d ago
I really appreciate your thoughtful response. It was a very insightful read! In all transparency, I am torn on the issue. I am about 60%/40% on the issue, leaning towards you can lose your salvation, but fully accept that I can be wrong in the end. I hope I am wrong honestly…. But I think it’s more cautious and conservative to believe your salvation can be lost to keep you more on track in your walk with Christ. It’s easy to fall into the license to sin if salvation is eternally locked.
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u/Caddiss_jc 7d ago
Well we can talk it through if you'd like.
Since many can use the same vocabulary but assign different meaning to words, let's start at the begin. How are you saved? By what mechanism does a perfectly holy God that can not be connected to sin, reconcile and adopt a people to Himself who's very nature is sinful?
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u/Sad-Pair1065 2d ago
Hi Gambler,
You said: "But I think it’s more cautious and conservative to believe your salvation can be lost to keep you more on track in your walk with Christ. It’s easy to fall into the license to sin if salvation is eternally locked."
If that is what you truly believe you need to walk up to God and say, "God I am a sinner, I am not worthy of your Grace but God I want you to save me give me the gift of eternal, God I am trusting You and only You so save and keep me." Then you have to trust Him looking forward to meeting Him.
I have a little prayer I say every night. Lord thank you for helping me make it through the day now keep me through the night before I get out of bed, I say Lord thank you for keeping me through night now keep me through the day. He has not failed to that for the last 77 years since I was born again at 10 years and I have pastored Churches 61 years of that time. I did that because I loved Him and He loved me first.
Aaron
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u/Sad-Pair1065 2d ago
Hi, /ucaddiss
I would also add Proverbs was not written to Gentiles but to the Jews under the old covenant, not the New Covenant.
Aaron
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u/JHawk444 Evangelical 8d ago
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise as a guarantee of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14). To quote verse 14, it says, "who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it." That's written in contract language and it never says the Holy Spirit will be taken away.
Verse 11 makes it clear we were predestined, so this was already decided ahead of time. God is not going to seal someone with the HS if he already knows they will abandon the faith and they aren't predestined.
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
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u/DesperateAdvantage76 Christian 8d ago
The Bible from start to finish is full of tension and ambiguity. It's best to accept that OSAS is not important to know, what is important is that we accept the Gospel and continually repent and pursue Christ Jesus.
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u/DesopixiSeilynam 8d ago
The Holy Spirit is free and never leaves a believer, so the only way such a one can really fall and stay fallen is to actively and knowingly choose to. They go back to their old ways purposefully and wickedly turning their back on God, and long enough in that state they never choose to return. And those kind receive worse punishment than someone who never had the Spirit. And those are the reasons Paul preaches how he does, such that we never loose heart but stay focused on Christ and His promises. Some might say such a one was never truly born again, and that is the case, it's just that being born again is a process of the Spirit, a life sincerely lead by the indwelling Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the gift of God, so that we can work. Luke 11:13, Acts 2:38, Galatians 3:2, John 14:21-24 + 1 Corinthians 16:22. Galatians 6:7-8, Romans 8:13-14
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u/DesperateAdvantage76 Christian 8d ago
We don't know for sure whether the Holy Spirit is a permanent fixture in our lives, especially if we choose to later reject God. After all, Saul lost the Holy Spirit when he turned from God and David begged God not to take away the Holy Spirit when he committed grave sins. For all we know, the "sealed with the Holy Spirit" verse only applies to those who don't later reject God. Remember, there are very few things in the Bible that are absolutely known or stated, it's better to say "we're not sure" rather than make an assumption on God's behalf.
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u/thetruegambler 8d ago
Just to clarify, are you saying “being born again” is a process rather than an instantaneous moment?
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u/DesopixiSeilynam 8d ago
We receive the Spirit instantaneously, and throughout our lives the Spirit grants us fruit and leads us, and thereby we are born again.
Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God. Romans 8:14...He saved us, by, the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost... Titus 3:5-6
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u/userid42 Christian non-nationalist 8d ago
Justification is instantaneous. Sanctification is a life-long process which follows. Justification is the root, sanctification the fruit.
Justification is the act by which God declares a sinner righteous, not on account of anything the person has done but on the basis of Christ's atoning death and the righteousness credited to them through faith. In the Protestant tradition it is understood as a forensic, once-for-all verdict: a change of legal standing before God, resulting in pardon, acceptance, and peace. Catholic teaching, by contrast, treats justification as including an inward renewal, so that the person is made righteous and not merely declared so.
Sanctification concerns transformation: it involves growth in obedience, love, and resistance to sin over the course of a lifetime, and is usually understood as incomplete until glorification. Traditions differ on its shape, with Reformed theology stressing perseverance and the believer's ongoing struggle, Wesleyan streams allowing for entire sanctification or Christian perfection, and Orthodoxy framing it within theosis.
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u/UncleSunkle Catholic 8d ago
In my opinion, John 15 “I am the true vine” is probably the best single passage against eternal security.
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 8d ago
I know OSAS is false. Believers who grieve the Holy Spirit and QUENCH the Holy Spirit by backsliding into wicked deeds...
They have defiled garments, they have bad fruit, and they're back on the wide road to destruction.
We need to fear God and keep our garment clean
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u/Sad-Pair1065 5d ago
Would you like to refute the following Scriptures?
Jesus Promises Eternal Life
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
If everlasting life can be lost, it was not everlasting.
John 5:24
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Notice the present possession: "hath everlasting life."
John 6:37
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
John 6:39
"And this is the Father's will... that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing."
John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear my voice... and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand... no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 4d ago
"I am the True Vine, you are the branches... Any branch in Me that doesn't bear fruit will be cut off from Me and thrown in the fire". John 15
"Behold the goodness and the severity of God - towards them which fell away, severity, but to you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness otherwise YOU TOO SHALL BE CUT OFF". Romans 11:22
"The wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience". Colossians 3:25
Disobedient believers aren't going to make it, they're hypocrites. So we still need to fear God and obey Jesus.
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u/Sad-Pair1065 2d ago
Hi /Senior_Educator
Disobedient believers aren't going to make it, they're hypocrites. So we still need to fear God and obey Jesus.
Why should I fear God? I love God and do His will every day and I trust Him to keep me. You are working to please God and be saved. I serve God because I love Him no other reason.
Hypocrite- a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion. They don't have eternal life and never possessed eternal life. You can't lose something you never had.
You have to be born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit to have received a free full pardon John 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:John 10:28 And I neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
You need to sit down, take your Bible, read Romans chapters ten and eleven and see who Paul is talking to. When you figure out who Paul is talking to it might clear up for you.
Aaron
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u/Senior_Educator_929 Assemblies of God 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, your OSAS doctrine totally removes the fear of God. People don't like to fear God, so they're easily seduced by OSAS. But Jesus said to fear God.
Believers who receive the Holy Spirit but then grieve the Holy Spirit and QUENCH the Holy Spirit by doing wicked deeds, aren't going to make it.
Y'all like Romans 11?
Behold the goodness and the severity of God, towards them which fell away, severity, but to you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness, otherwise YOU TOO SHALL BE CUT OFF ". Romans 11:22
Backsliders aren't going to make it
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u/darklighthitomi 8d ago
I think most people are way off on understanding this, looking at their beliefs or whatever.
But honestly, I think it is about what kind of person you are. What would you die for, what do you stand for, what do you ignore, when do you back down? That kind of stuff. Not your conscious belief, not your actions that you justify after the fact, but your inner nature.
Are you the one that recognizes that you are wholly unprepared to lose your job, have people who depend on your income,and yet still risk your job, your status, ... would risk becoming a pariah among ever social circle you ever knew, just to do what is right? Would you accept going to hell if it meant saving someone else? Would you do what is right if it cost you everything?
Too many people act right for selfish reasons. They are not saved.
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u/Sad-Pair1065 7d ago
Hi true gambler,
You nowhere mention whether you have been born again or not.
Just from reading your post you have knowledge of God and don't know what to do with Him. I pastored for 60 years and met a lot of people in that boat drifting through life and many of them will never see the kingdom of God must less enter it.
I sincerely hope Iyou have been born again of the Spirit of God. But just in case you have doubts I will try to explain what Jesus said about it. John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."If there is no physical birth there can be no Spiritual birth as it has no place to take place. "Born of water is not baptism as some believe. A child is carried in water before physical birth. Jesus was teaching that a person must first experience a physical birth and then a spiritual birth. The new birth takes place when the Holy Spirit regenerates and seals the believer."
Now to the question of that sealing, can that seal be broken?
I present the following words Jesus/God. John 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
You said: "Christianity seems torn on the issue - some believing in it, and some not."
There are people who believe that Jesus/God Meant what He said in John 1:28-30. Eternal life is a free gift from Jesus/God and all a person has to to do is BELIEVE Jesus/God Exists, and will do what He says He will do.
You can't earn a GIFT, all you can do is accept it or reject it.
"Those who trust in their own works, rather than Christ alone, have misunderstood God's free gift of eternal life."
So, yes there are two different groups those who have accepted Jesus/God's Gift and those who have not accepted Jesus/God's Gift and are trying to work their way into Heaven.
I classify those 2 groups as:
Possessors, those who have been born again by accepting Gods Free full pardon for all sins past, present, and future becoming sons and daughters of God. And Professors, those who call themselves Christians and have not been born again by accepting God's Free full pardon.
They can go to Church together, pray together, and even fellowship together.
They may look alike, walk alike and talk alike and there is only one way to tell them apart.
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
God noes not chastise the devils children that will come on Judgment Day.
Aaron
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u/Baleofthehay Adopted son of God 7d ago edited 6d ago
We had the 'depart from me, for I NEVER knew you" mention at hour men's group meeting the other week
A bro pretty well said. How can Jesus know you, if you don't spend time with him or talk/pray?There is no relationship.
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u/Bitter_North_733 Christian 2d ago
you know if you are GENUINELY saved
Many people pretend to be saved or they play the game where they will continue to sin and then we'll repent before they die God doesn't play games only the really genuine saved not the pretenders the game players
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u/chumley84 Roman Catholic 8d ago
This is why chruch history is so important. None of the church fathers believed in OSAS
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u/Sad-Pair1065 5d ago
Hi u/chumley84,
But their belief does not overrule what God says about His GIFT of eternal life.
Aaron
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u/chumley84 Roman Catholic 4d ago
Idk man. I trust their interpretation of God's word more than yours.
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u/Sad-Pair1065 3d ago edited 3d ago
Hi chumley,
That makes it your problem if they disagree with God says.
The problem is that most people believe their sins, the ones they personally commit is the reason they go to Hell.
chumley I am going to speak directly to you but it applies to every person who has ever been born.
chumley you can be born and never commit one sin in your life live to be 120 yrs old, die and go to hell. No one has the choice as the man in the Garden had, to make a choice between good and evil. A person who reaches the point that they know the difference between good and evil has only one choice. They can choose to do nothing die and go to hell. But God provided an alternative they can choose to accept God's offer of a free full pardon. To do that you must be born again becoming a son/daughter of God. To be born again you have to believe God is and will preform what He says He will do, accept His offer, at that point the Holy Spirit will seal your spirit until the day of redemption. When sealed by the Holy Spirit, you cannot cease to be a child of God. But if you are a disobedient child He will punish you and you continue messing up and being an unruly child He can and does Chasen his children to the point of removal from this world. He does not Chasen the devils children that is how you can tell if a person has truly been born again.
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
THIS IS WHAT GOD SAYS. You can like it or lump it. What you believe does not matter other than your Eternal Destiny.
Aaron
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u/ds-is-i 8d ago edited 8d ago
I wouldn’t use Matthew 7:23 as a proof text for eternal security, since that’s not the context. 1 Peter 1:5 however provides the immediate contextual answer, that we “are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation”, not by our individual effort/failure.
Matthew 7 does make it clear though that they were rejected for lack of faith. The men who trusted in their works (v.22 - not Christ alone) are the “bad trees” which cannot bear good fruit because “without faith it is impossible to please him” (Heb. 11:6).
The reason their “good works” are called iniquity is because they went before God and boasted of their own filthy self righteous work (Isaiah 64:6), done without trusting in Christ’s atoning work alone, which Ephesians 2:8-9 says will not be tolerated.
Verse 22 explicitly defines that they had done many works, yet were “never known”. Compare this to Hebrews 6, where the believers publicly shame Christ’s work by backsliding into animal sacrifice, yet are told that God has not forgotten the good things they have done despite their public rejection of Him.
The difference? They had faith (Heb. 6:4-6) while the men in Matthew 7 did not do the will of the Father for salvation (v.21 - “enter the kingdom”). Jesus explicitly defines the Father’s will in John 6:40 as believing on the Son.