“Female socialization” used against trans mascs?

[u/Civil-Page6197]

I know that trans femmes have to deal with accusations of “male socialization” being used to discredit them.

But I’m interested in hearing stories of if any fellow trans mascs ever had “female socialization” thrown at them.

I remember one time, my cis male friend told me that I didn’t know what it was like to have to fear being physically beaten. Because society has the whole “don’t hit girls” thing and when teen boys bully each other it’s not uncommon for it to get physical, whereas, when teen girls bully each other it’s usually psychological.

Nice argument, one small issue:

…My mother was physically abusive.

Another time was when a trans femme friend of mine told me that I never got bullied for having traits or liking things of the opposite gender.
Because girls wearing pants is seen as natural. Boys wearing skirts would be made fun of.

I can see the thought process, however, I do think it comes with some caveats:
Girls aren’t made fun of for having masculine traits… as long as they’re still hot.

I never shaved my legs when I was younger. (Still don’t.) I’ll never forget the collective “ewwww…” when I rolled up my pant leg to scratch an itch in front of my guy friends.
That’s not even getting into that time I made the mistake of… wearing shorts to school.

Girls don’t get put down for liking boy stuff… until they start quizzing you on it/dont believe you actually like it.

I’m into Marvel and DC comics. I have this distinct memory of this one boy who basically just insisted I only liked superheroes because I must’ve thought they were hot.
A lot of the time, you’ll be quizzed in order to prove that you’re a “real fan.” And if you don’t like the exact same things that they like, then you’re a poser. (Example: Nintendo games/mobile games don’t count as “real games.”)

Okay, but let’s say you do like the “real guy stuff.”
Then you better not be better at it/know more about it than they do.

Not all men do this, but some of them do get insecure and feel emasculated when someone they view as a woman does something masculine better than them or corrects them on a topic that’s supposed to be men’s work.

Bonus thing:
This one isn’t really a “female socialization” thing, but I usually see it paired together with it.

Claim: Society is more accepting of trans men, because in a patriarchal society, of course women would want to be men…
Caveat: Of course, we don’t actually view them as men, though. And if they try to insist that they are men, it’s our job to remind them of their place.

For example, here’s how it feels trying to discuss trans men in sports:
“Of course they’d never beat a real man. Because people born male are always bigger, faster, and stronger than people born female. I don’t know why you’re so triggered by basic biological facts.
I mean, remember when that one professional women’s soccer team was defeated by a group of 15 year old boys? I’m just stating facts. I don’t understand why you’re getting so upset that I’m reminding you of how naturally inferior your body is.
Testosterone might make you stronger than a cis woman, but you’re not a man.”

[u/johnnyisdarling]

I think a lot of the time it relates to queerness/gay dude experiences in particular

For example I've encountered cis gay men that think it's impossible for a gay/bi trans guy to have ever been called a homophobic slur that is directed towards queer men, especially if in their minds the trans guy doesn't pass 

Or ideas that we've never been made fun of for being seen as effeminate or "failed" boys in the same way

[u/NotABreakfastGuy]

Oh I definitely get this. I think it's used very differently on us than on trans femmes. On us it's used as a demeaning stereotype that's usually born of misogyny (because in my experience it is an assumption about women while viewing us as women) and with them it's often born from bioessentialism.

There is often an assumption about trans people's life experience that especially as a visibly trans-nonpassing-intersex person I have never found actually applied to me.

There is an assumption about experiences or lack thereof

There is an assumption about opinions or lack there of

There is assumption about a lot of things.

I'm frequently assumed to have had mostly good experiences with women (I'd say I have equal amounts of good experiences with women as men and as someone who was geneva convention definition of torture, tortured by a woman I don't personally feel any safer with women compared to men)

I'm frequently assumed to have done certain things in childhood that I just never did.

I'm assumed to have had specific dynamics with my family members that I didn't have

I'm generally assumed to be unable to pass because of being "raised a woman" aka socialized as a woman. I don't pass because I'm immune to T and I (someone who's disabled and chronically ill) will not put myself in exceedingly large amounts of pain just to pass a third of the time.

[u/Enovele]

My experience is less of people weaponizing it against me like they do transfems, but more so people completely misunderstanding what that actually looks like. A lot of people, as you've shown, who weren't raised perceived as girls as a child don't seem to fully understand the pressure and harm that comes with that and mischaracterize it a lot or worse, downplay how bad it can be.

I've also had many tell me that it's not even real or a thing, though more so from people who are very understandably upset with how the reverse is used that they shut down the whole concept.

And then I've seen the occassional few who do weaponize it the same way. Someone once said that AFAB trans folks having a habit of playing victim when called out is female socialization and privilege. So idk, it's a spectrum of reactions at this point.

[u/Intelligent_Usual318]

I was brutually abused by my mom and abused by my classmates for daring to be gender non conforming. It depends on the area. I think it’s a very privlaged look to say that trans men and gnc women have it better when that shit isnt allowed in most countries.

[u/Civil-Page6197 → u/Intelligent_Usual318]

Yeah
I remember when I was forced to go to church wearing dresses and skirts. One day, I tried to go to church wearing a dress shirt and a necktie I secretly bought without her knowing, but my Mom refused to let me go outside dressed like that and proceeded to give me the whole spiel about how God made me a woman and being a woman is something that I should be proud of and yadda yadda.

[u/Intelligent_Usual318 → u/Civil-Page6197]

I had all my clothes taken away from me for cutting my hair

[u/Civil-Page6197 → u/Intelligent_Usual318]

I cut my hair short, and I remember how my Dad said it made me look like a lesbian.

[u/Cat-Clawz → u/Civil-Page6197]

I remember when I first asked to cut my hair my mom asked me if I was doing it "just to spite her". She said this most every time I did something gender nonconforming that she didn't personally think was cute, not wearing dresses, not shaving, not wearing makeup to fancy events. She wished I was like her and it was like she couldn't even conceptualize that I was doing it because I WANTED TO and not just to annoy her specifically. It was so tiring growing up always being told that trying to be myself was a spiteful annoying act.

[u/SecondaryPosts]

Tbh, mostly in terms of other trans people and cis feminists demanding that I recognize that I was "socialized female," which I was not. It can lead to a lot of distasteful things but the way it's done is very different from how assumption of male socialization is used against trans women. Like rather than being used to imply we're predatory, like it is for trans women - creating negative expectations and leading to excessive caution - the socialization argument is sometimes used to create "positive" expectations for trans men, like that we will be more emotionally intelligent, more caring, more sympathetic to women than cis men are (...without reaping any of the benefits of oppressed group solidarity though). It's all mixed up.

[u/white-chlorination]

I agree.

I don't believe I was socialised female. My mum and stepdad didn't raise me with typical traits of either gender, they just let me kind of be how I wanted to be.

But my biological father was physically abusive. I used to be in physical fights with the guys at my school. I got bullied for being a computer nerd (and now it pays me well). A friend of mine in school was 190cm tall and was a rower, but she was also a girl, which meant she was bullied.

Despite being a trans guy and my work colleagues knowing this, I still get quizzed on my knowledge about different OSes. A lot. As if I'm not the Linux security engineer and run the MDMs for both Mac and Windows.

I get paid less than my male colleague, still. I'm generally expected to have it more "together" than my male colleagues. I used to be the "note taker" for our meetings because one of our colleagues claimed he couldn't (until our manager told him off for it). I still get treated with a touch of sexism at work, as if they ignore I'm a trans man.

While I don't think I was socialised as female, I think people like that they can pretend in their head that I was and can ignore I'm a man.

[u/Aprils-]

I completely agree with everything you said here. I think the way girls (and pre transition trans men etc) are treated by society so horrendously is often overlooked. The pressures and requirements are insane and cruel, the double standards (be a slut and a prude simultaneously, come on, do it) are so fucking obvious and I think a lot of cis men completely overlook how brutal the "female socialisation" is.

That said, it's used as a vector, again, of infantalisation which, tbh, is no different to simply viewing trans men as women, just as trans women are viewed as rapists.

It's an explanation of the current perception and of course there is no logical consistency or throughline - it's a justification of how I'm treating you, not an explanation of who you are. By phrasing it as an explanation, though, my judgment becomes reality, and you trying to establish that it is not makes you silly, uninformed.

[u/spookyscaryscouticus]

This discourse on “socialization” is inherently a messy topic that is almost useless to use as a “female socialization” and “male socialization” because A) if your egg has cracked, then experience of these lessons as a closeted trans person is wildly different to experiencing them as a kid who thinks they’re cis or is cis, and B) What being a “little girl” or a “little boy” is varies wildly depending on generation, location, faith, class, your parents education, all that stuff colors what you “should” learn, intersection feminism is a thing for a reason.

There is no universal “female socialization” that every little girl is subjected to and they all absorb it the same way, therefore making trans men more considerate, more trustworthy, and more susceptible to manipulation because they were “socialized as girls, and girls get taught to think of others before themselves and be sweet and friendly with one another”. There is no universal “male socialization” that every little boy is subjected to that makes them less considerate, less trustworthy, more prone to violence, and more willing to manipulate others because they were “socialized as boys, and boys are encouraged to not think about others and beat each other up”

[u/Peebles8]

I haven't had it used against me, but I've had it used as a way of trying to relate. Yes, for the first 21 years of my life I identified as a girl, but I came from a small town and didn't even realize there was another option. I always felt dysphoria. I felt disconnected from girlhood. At no point in my life have I been a woman. What does socialized as a girl even mean? Because for me everything I can think of related to growing up as a "girl" felt unnatural and forced. I imagine cisgirls don't feel that way. So... I guess to answer your question, no it hasn't been maliciously used against me. It's been ignorantly applied to me.

[u/RobinEssences]

This socialization bullshit I've seen way too much lately.

Being hated on and abused by those that I didn't conform to be like isn't socialization you fuckers.