(Spoilers published) Speculative Question about Alys Karstark and Sigorn Thenn

[u/citymouse0927]

I know Jon arranged this match off page but given the fact that Sigorn really hated Jon for most of ADWD, I would love to know how Jon first broached the idea marrying a non-free folk girl (complete stranger) to Sigorn. More than that, how did Jon convince Sigorn to agree to it?

“Fight for you?” This voice was thickly accented. Sigorn, the young Magnar of Thenn, spoke the Common Tongue haltingly at best. “Not fight for you. Kill you better. Kill all you.” (ADWD, Jon IV)

Jon’s smile died. “I might if I could trust him. Sigorn blames me for his father’s death, I fear. Worse, he was bred and trained to give orders, not to take them. Do not confuse the Thenns with free folk. Magnar means lord in the Old Tongue, I am told, but Styr was closer to a god to his people, and his son is cut from the same skin. I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey.” (ADWD, Jon VII)

Although the match was beneficial to both parties (Alys needed help escaping her gross uncles and gaining control of Karhold, and Sigorn needed a place to shelter his people) I feel like there had to have been some kind of negotiation or some assurances made.

Why do I think this? I'll tell ya:

First, if Jon mistrusted Sigorn enough to not want to bestow him one of the uninhabitable NW castles, why would Jon trust him with Alys's hand and, with that, one of the most powerful castles in the North? Alys and Karhold are far more important than a castle that hadn't been manned since the reign of King Jaehaerys.

Second, I just cannot imagine Sigorn agreeing a betrothal after essentially being told by Jon, "Hey, so I know you think I killed your dad and you hate me, but I lowkey really need you to marry my childhood friend and go south with her and the few men you have to potentially die in retaking her family's castle. Oh, and btw, she has an older brother who may or may not return home alive and reclaim his position as Lord of Karhold."

Third, Sigorn had already knelt to Stannis, which was definitely a moment where the Magnar put his people before his pride, but there is a difference between the Magnar kneeling and taking orders from Stannis (a king/someone who could have had Sigorn burned at the stake) vs. Harrion Karstark.

Finally, by marrying Alys and going to Karhold, even if the Thenns were successful, Sigorn would still be risking another displacement of his people if Harrion were to return and not be chill with wildlings living on his family's lands.

As a House Thenn stan, and a realllll sucker for a good love story, I'd like to think that Sigorn agreed to all those uncertainties and potential risks because he was smitten with Alys....but because this is GRRM and nothing is ever that simple, I doubt it.

[u/Enola_Gay_B29]

Alys needs help if she wants to hold Karhold against her uncle, cousin and their supporters. That I think is the main reasoning behind getting her married in the first place. So, who are her options?

• one of the Queen's Men? They can't offer any meaningful man power (and Jon doesn't like any of them anyway).
• some nice Freefolk leader and his war band? The problem is that they'll have to slot into this feudal society. The Freefolk are not used to this ruling by ancestry and having to bend your knee to another man's will, no matter how little you like it. they did it at the Wall because it meant this or death, but now they are safe beyond the Wall and will be riling against society's chains.
• that leaves Sigorn and his men. He is actually quite well suited to the job, as the Thenn are already used to this concept of an inherent right to rule. Out of all Freefolk, the Thenn will integrate the easiest into feudal society.

Which brings us to Sigorn. He ain't stupid and I think he quickly figured out that south of the Wall you are either someone with power or you aren't. After all it isn't that different from back home. And right now he doesn't have any power beyond his few sworn swords and it doesn't seem likely there will come some quick chance to change that. But suddenly such an opportunity arises. He would be stupid not to jump on that.

So, from both Jon's/Alys' and Sigorn's perspective that seems like the best solution (even if in the long run it might turn out to not even be good).

[u/citymouse0927 → u/Enola_Gay_B29]

True. However, was Sigorn smart enough to realize that Harrion Karstark's survival was not just some far-fetched concept and could very much be a real threat if it came to pass? We obvi have no way of knowing what his thoughts were, but if it were me, I would have asked Jon (and Selyse) for some assurances to be made including (but not limited to) something like:

• Lands and a castle (abandoned or not) to be granted to House Thenn in exchange for peacefully ceding Karhold to Harrion upon his return and answering his call to arms when summoned
• House Thenn's still retains its status as a lordly house in its own right and not as a cadet branch of House Karstark, in exchange for expressing a willingness to swear fealty to House Stark if they return to power and a promise to continue to aid Harrion and Stannis (esp if Arnolf Karstark's line somehow survives and attempts another coup)
• Assistance and funds from the crown (Stannis) for House Thenn's relocation costs upon Harrion's return.
• Assurances that the surrounding houses will not breach the king's peace if House Thenn were to relocate

Additionally, i brought up Jon's mistrust of Sigorn because I wondered whether he had other motivations for not granting the Thenns a Night's Watch castle. Was Jon's offer of a betrothal an admission that Sigorn actually is an honorable guy and could be trusted with Alys and her mission? If Sigorn betrayed Jon whilst married to Alys, Jon would have been COOKED by the mountain clans, the mormonts, the Umbers, and Roose could've used that to his advantage.

Speaking of which, there was a secret third option for Alys: one of the sons or grandsons of the Chiefs of the Mountain Clans (though I prefer her being with Sigorn <3).

[u/Enola_Gay_B29 → u/citymouse0927]

Do they (or we for that matter) even know whether Harrion is alive? I doubt Jon has much knowledge on which noble is well and alive and who isn't. And Alys information would most likely be the same as Cregan's who claims Cregan to be dead. So, it might not even have been a bad deal from Sigorn's viewpoint.

As for assurances, Sigorn is not stupid, but he's still from the savage north. The power dynamic between nobles and everyone else might be easy enough to figure out, southron politicking won't be. I also think you are generally approaching this whole thing way to complicatedly. Neither of the two men would come up with these double and triple assurances, that sound more like they come from modern corporate contract jargon than medieval Westeros.

And yeah, if Sigorn betrays the Nights Watch, Jon's in a pickle. But a potential betrayal is still better than the certain backstabbing from Arnolf and Cregan. Once again this is the best of his available choices, not the best overall choice.

[u/citymouse0927 → u/Enola_Gay_B29]

yeahhh the recent law school grad in me really popped out there with those assurances.

@ the Night's Watch if u need a lawyer, I can work pro bono!

[u/VilliansAreBetter → u/citymouse0927]

You might have to help Jon out with his current legal trials lol. They seem about ready to give him the death penalty from what I last heard.

[u/citymouse0927 → u/Enola_Gay_B29]

I also selfishly wish we had the scene of Jon calling Sigorn over from Mole's Town just to ask him if he's still single

[u/yehEy2020]

Alys isn't exactly purely a damsel in distress here. She is capable, and Jon knows this.

On Jon's part, he needed Alys to keep an eye on Sigor because Jon himself has too much to handle already. Marrying Sigorn off to Alys will make him take his army and his people far away from Jon to be a threat, at least for now. With luck, Alys could do more than keep an eye on Sigorn, but eventually even get to keep him under her thumb.

On Sigorn's part, he surely acknowledges that the lands south of the wall are much better than their harsh valleys on the far north. The lands around Karhold are much safer, and much greener, plus it puts him out from under the hated Jon Snow's thumb. He sees a future for his people in Karhold, plus he gets a castle, and a wife to boot. Besides, consider his innate racism: "Surely these soft southerners would be no match to the kinds of things we had to fight over in the far north. Retaking this Karhold would be no sweat for my army!"

For Alys's part, it's obvious what the benefits are. She gets a husband, although wildling. She gets her husband's army, such as they are, and his people. She gets to keep her uncles at bay, and maybe even wipe them out. She might even be able to put the wildling husband under her thumb, if she played her cards right, which means she gets a stab at being Lady of Karhold, which would never happen under normal circumstances.

[u/Guilliman_POTUS_2030]

It’s ephemera George which made up randomly to fill pages. It doesn’t make sense because it’s not supposed to make sense. When George wrote this, he still thought he would have a sixth novel out within the next 4 years (lol)

This kind of stuff exists to give Jon something to do for chapter; and George never anticipated that anyone would be analyzing it on a forum 15 years later 

There are a lot of things like this in AFFC and ADWD. They are very sloppy books in general

If you re-read the series, you will eventually dread chapters like this one because they are so utterly pointless, and eventually you start to dread the entirety of AFFC and most of ADWD

[u/PorkshireTerrier]

Good poiint