How should Black continue in this opening?

[u/malie7]

[u/malie7]

https://lemmingfuseki.com/pos/0996020404982

Massive thanks to everyone who has chipped in on Ko-fi recently. Seeing people support the site makes all the hours spent generating fresh tsumego and fuseki challenges completely worth it.

[u/AzureDreamer → u/malie7]

I've seen you link this a few times and seen the UI on the website but not really understood the goal or scope of your project 

[u/malie7 → u/AzureDreamer]

The link is to an opening problem. It should show different opening moves. This depends on the players rank. For a 10k more moves are seen as good than for a 2d. There are lot's of suchlike opening problems at the site. https://lemmingfuseki.com/opening A very practical fuseki training!

The overall goal of the site is to provide material to improve on Go play.

I'm not sure about the scope, but it's in the direction of fun, entertaining, effective Go training.

Personally I think the ranked tsumegos are the best part of the site. https://lemmingfuseki.com/tsumego They are all fresh and unseen. I generate them with KataGo using a set of experimental algorithms.

The joseki trainer https://lemmingfuseki.com/joseki is the newest addition. I like it a lot because it only asks for one move, but that's also what some criticize, so I think I will add another mode that asks for a sequence of moves. It is following spaced repetition ideas to use your training time most effectively. Also, you get an estimate of the cost of passing for each position. That tells you how urgent a local play is, but most of the time that is very obvious.

And then there is the https://lemmingfuseki.com/memory which is a quick and fun game about memorizing (meaningful) move sequences, for both colors. Right now it is very fast paced, you get around one second to memorize each move. There is a slow mode, but I think there should be another mode that is much much slower, self paced, as to give people time to understand moves, before they reproduce the move sequence. People do learn pro games by heart to improve, this is meant to help you there, and make it more fun. Right now it is more of an indicator of your Go strengths. I'm not sure if your Go playing strength would increase if you play this fast paced memory a lot. (I'm much more sure about the effectiveness of my other training offers) I'm somehow thinking of it as a "Go Party Game".

Oh, I forgot about the visualisation mode. Ever remarked how good players can memorize positions so well? This tool is meant to directly train your memorization capabilities. You just memorize a position and then reproduce it. Naturally this gets much more difficult when there are more stonens on the board. Like see this position https://lemmingfuseki.com/pos/4777189237881 or https://lemmingfuseki.com/pos/5750380842712 You have to enable visualisation problems in the tsumego settings. This was mostly inspired by the opinions of Jonas Welticke.

[u/AzureDreamer → u/malie7]

All of these seem like wonderful tools ill go poke around

Personally I would love to see progress in my visualization I can barely even remember the firs 40 moves of my game.

[u/mylsotol]

M4 I won't attempt to justify it other than to say "start a fight" because i can't. It's probably objectively bad

[u/NickDerpkins → u/mylsotol]

Either M4 or J2 H3 M4

Also. I never noticed so the boards not use an I?

[u/ceryniz]

I kinda like K11 to split and cut the K10 stone and force the K15 group to pick a side to run to.

[u/ceryniz → u/ceryniz]

Normally it would be bad because it strengthens whites floating group. But with blacks overwhelming influence on both the top right and top left... It looks like it works.

[u/oh-saka → u/ceryniz]

After K11, J11, L11, J12, J10, H10 I don't think much is accomplished: black separated the K10 stone, but the rest of the white group has only gotten stronger.

[u/ceryniz → u/oh-saka]

Ahh I see. I read the other direction first and was like oh that looks great for black.

[u/Mededitor]

K2 is interesting. Black can escape to the left or live on the right, either way, devasting White's territory down there. Then poking at the center from either side should keep the count under control.

[u/Asdfguy87 → u/Mededitor]

How can K2 live towarda the right if white bloxks the left? And even if it does, isn't it just small life and fiving white lots of influence towards the center? With the two big walls from tge 3-3s, I would have expected black to attack the center white stones for profit.

[u/Mededitor → u/Asdfguy87]

White will likely play J3 after B K2. B J2. After that, a B play at L3 is a simple kyu-level problem. White loses a lot. Compare with W getting H3 first. This is at least a 30-pt swing. B can also start with K3, but that feels less artful.

[u/ep1032]

By finishing the picture of a butterfly

[u/lumisweasel]

white has four corners, resign

[u/Sriep]

Play something close to white's center stones. AI likes H12, with follow-ups at H15, K13 or J9. This sort of positional judgement is what the AI excels at, so I am a believer.

[u/Julesderhalbe → u/Sriep]

maan using AI here feels like cheating :D
I feel like H12 supports the black group on the left and builds a loose moyo, as well

idk, but I would have played H15, K7, or M4.

Many options but my thinking is attacking the group in the middle and also helping my weakest group in the down-left corner, H6 maybe as well?

[u/Sriep → u/Julesderhalbe]

If you actually want the answer to these sorts of questions, you ask the AI. The human element is explaining the AI's answer so that you have a chance of understanding similar positions in your own game.

Would I have spotted H12 in an actual game? I don't know. K13 is the weak spot in white's shape that focuses my attention; now that I have seen H12, it just feels right, so maybe if I stared at the board long enough.

[u/Kumlekar → u/Sriep]

Someone posts a problem and you ask the ai for a solution instead of doing the problem? What's the point?

[u/Sriep → u/Kumlekar]

You learn something about the game. Besides, you do both; otherwise, how do you know if you are correct?.

[u/Julesderhalbe → u/Sriep]

well, how would you do it without AI? You would discuss and reason. You would first look very long on that board and try out different approaches. In that way, you would improve your play way better, instead of immediately asking AI. It's not the result which is important, but the struggle. Make it easy for you and you learn nothing.

Surely, in the end you can check. But you could have hidden your answer, because after I saw it, I was like: Yeah okay, no point in discussing anymore :D

[u/SlothfulBunny]

My first instinct(DDK) is the hane at the head of two at H15

[u/RoundAltruistic8243 → u/SlothfulBunny]

As another DDK doesn't the turn L15 feel better. We aren't really worry if the hane our stones because we will cut and fight and with friends nearby we should win.

[u/hatdowl]

I would try M14. Splitting the corner from the center trying to make white choose one group over the other. Or alternatively, K6 and just kill the center and push white into the edge.

[u/bobsollish]

I like m4 - gives white some tough choices to make

[u/AzureDreamer]

My initial take is attack the weak connection of your opponents stones at the top while building a moyo yo the right but ai wouldn't be surprised to hear that's aji keshi

[u/DineshR]

I like S4

[u/pandelin_]

White has a weaker group floating in the center. They also have an invadable area on the bottom (K4 isn't making territory). Very difficult for me to tell if you should harass the center first or just directly invade the bottom. I'm looking at L11, J11, K8 and M3 as points of interest. You have to be a little careful of your group on the lower left, so maybe we should factor that into our plan. I like the idea of harassing the center group and then hitting M3 to invade the bottom. Maybe something like J11, K11, K8 and after they run a bit, hit M3

[u/Superb-Comment-8082]

White take a hard position

[u/Interesting_Debate57]

I like B13, although it's much more mild than the aggressive stuff I've seen others recommend.

I didn't see the moves on the M line such as M13, nor do I have the confidence to use my sente to start a difficult fight at bottom.

[u/jach_da_gan]

As we can't easily attach the group at K12 i think i would try and create a white weak group to split attack them afterwards. The move at P4 springs to my mind.

[u/leftember → u/jach_da_gan]

If you want to attack that area. Would L5 be better?

[u/jach_da_gan → u/leftember]

My opinion is that the shoulder hit on the fifth line is too much of a gamble since it will provide a lot if territory to white. The group at K12 isn't easily attackable as such. I feel complications are needed to force white's hand

[u/TheArdeleanul]

B7

[u/wutevahung]

If I am playing, I might just do k9, try to disconnect middle group from the bottom group, then eye to disconnect k5 stone by attacking with m3 or m4. Even if I can’t disconnect that group then hopefully I can build a wall in the middle around L9 or L10 so I can potentially have some territory on the right off the Moyo.

[u/Dazzling_Craft_7479]

I'm thinking D10 because it looks big. But is it too passive against the middle white group? It makes it ha der for it to run to the left at least. (9kyu)

[u/remillard]

I don't know. I personally don't see a clear way to attack that white trail to midfield currently. I would favor doing something like K3, working with the G4 stone and D5 group.