r/bassoon • u/Advanced_Silver_4506 • 1d ago
Fox 201 question
My professor suggested me this horn. I‘m looking for purchasing a pro-level instrument. I love the sound of it, but intonation is very wonky. I remember very flat G2-Bb2 register, low A3-C4 even venting all of them, and very sharp D4 (all the fingerings).
I have Heckel CC1, CC2 modern vocals, also CC3 very old one and Walter CC2 bocal. The intonation remains the same despite the bocal change, mb the CC3 made it even worse. CC1 was the best, but results were as I described previously.
it’s been overhauled recently by an excellent bassoon technician.
Can it be just unlucky bassoon?
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u/mcvred 1d ago
The tenor register stuff you're describing is a natural aspect of many bassoons-it is an acoustically deficient instrument by design and you have to make adjustments to your reeds and select bocals based on the qualities of the instrument. The fact that it is a new instrument to you is likely amplifying this because you're used to the scale on your current instrument. Flat G2-Bb2 is...interesting, I have played an older Heckel with those qualities before. Perhaps for the previous owner that register was quite sharp and they had the toneholes/key heights adjusted to account for that. If you decide you really like this instrument and it's worth purchasing despite, you may want to look for some "V" Heckel bocals (VCDs specifically, but worth trying a variety) as they are designed to account for a flatter tenor register, and Heckel themselves describes them as working well for other makers. I had a box of CD and VCD bocals from a reputable vendor a while ago and three wonderful musicians I know and love all purchased VCD2 bocals from this box. None of their instruments are remotely similar (two older German bassoons and a very modern American bassoon) but each of those bocals I would have purchased for my ~10 year old Fox had I really needed one. Worth a shot.
A great teacher of mine gave me this advice: You have to train the bassoon to play in tune the way you want it to. It doesn't happen overnight.
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u/Advanced_Silver_4506 1d ago
This is very interesting, for sure. I currently play the Moosmann 150e, it definately has some intonation quirks, but in general it is very predictable. I thought, may be it is because i live where Fox horns are very rare, so no one is used to their sound and intonation tendencies as to Puchner, Moosmann or Moennig. My friend, he is currenly studies under Ole Kristian Dahl, said that this horn is kinda cursed, because it lived through a lot of overhaules during 3 years in pursue to tame it.
I feel confused by the fact it sounds really nice, but contrasts with nasty intonation.
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u/MusicalMerlin1973 1d ago
Short/wide bores are more flexible and more lyrical. With great power comes great responsibility.
No matter the horn, fist thing you should do is chart it. Play each note in the chromatic scale without trying to adjust it or looking at the tuner. Have a friend look at the tuner and mark what the pitch is. Also record the temperature. You now have the map of the horn and know what you have To be on top of.
When I had to borrow a 240 because my 220 was in for overhaul (it was time) I hated it at first. HATED. It took me a week. Then I loved it. I was about ready to pull the plug on my search for a better Barton Bassoon (amateur, this is my hobby) and buy a 240 when I found my Puchner.
Bocals: an individual bocal paired with a specific instrument can result in a unicorn… or meh. Just because it is awesome with one horn does not mean it’s fabulous with the next. The heckel I paired with my Puchner is OK with the 220. If I was going to seriously use my 220 again I’d have to do the search for a good bocal.
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u/Sanae-K 1d ago
I have a 1977 201, and I recently purchased a CC2XL bocal and it works like a charm! However, voicing does play quite a role in bassoon playing. When I bought my horn I had to change my voicing for a few notes because the voice setting I was used to for my old horn was not compatible with the intonation on my 201. Hope this helps! :)
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u/TraditionalUse2227 1d ago
I would make a few reeds for the horn specifically if you can, 201s are typically good horns and your prof is recommending it for a reason.
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u/BssnReeder1 1d ago
Sounds pretty normal going from one bassoon to the next in my experience, but you need like 10 - 15 other players tell you the same thing before it’s a tendency of that particular instrument.
A few options:
1. If you can extend your trial period a bit and play with a drone, bringing it to a few rehearsals, and you don’t feel like you are doing embouchure gymnastics, it could just be getting used to the instrument.
Make a few more reeds too, maybe leave a bit more cane on your reeds or cut your reed a touch shorter.
Bocals take time to find and since a Heckel 1 bocal is equivalent to a Fox 2 bocal, depending on what you are coming from you may even need a 0 length bocal which is not unheard of. AND make sure your bocals are clean and you are using reeds across the spectrum of life.
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u/FuzzyComedian638 1d ago
It's possible it's you. I don't mean to be snarky, but when I got my Heckel, I had to retrain myself not to adjust for notes that were out of tune on my old horn. I was doing it without even realizing it. Try playing scales and try to keep your embouchure stable and then see how it sounds. As far as bocals, your best bet is likely the CC2.