r/canadia • u/noshparty • 4d ago
Lockheed-Martin reps pushing F-35 procurement for Canada
Just in case anyone wanders into someone with a generic name who knows a little too much about the subject matter and shows a strange, aggressive interest in Canada procuring F-35s, just know people like this are lingering around.
He deleted his account minutes after posting this, but just know they're here pushing their agenda, as if you didn't already know.
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u/tastychicken555 4d ago edited 4d ago
i want the Gripen for Canada. But the guy does have a point even if he was a jerk expressing it. Canadian DnD is very set for the F35 unfortunately.
We already paid for some of them. RCAF pliots have been in training for the F35 for awhile, and lastly vast majority of official sources seem to be going ahead with the deal.
F35 parts are indeed manufactured in Canada. If we switched to the Gripen it would be a case of trading the Jobs from the F35 to Jobs created by Saab. BTW Saab would likely create more jobs than those lost by the F35 parts, so that is positive. Additionally, some Gripen parts / software do already come from the Americans due to integrated NATO supply chain.
The most optimistic outcome for the Gripen is if Canada decides to run a mix fleet.
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u/kullwarrior 4d ago
Canada does not have the infrastructure nor training to do mixed fleet. We have enough problem training single fleet as is. Honestly, I think the fighter jet conversation has sailed long ago., Canada should be smarter and source UCAVs away from US.
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u/Infinite_Ratio5208 4d ago
The F-35 is a significantly better fighter jet in every aspect and far superior than the Gripen.
It’s why nobody is purchasing Gripen lol. Over 2000 are on order including 1,300 F-35s already delivered vs 300 Gripens delivered and 117 on order.
Sales aside…
F-35 scored 95% vs Gripens marginal 33% on RCAFs own study. F-35 got the fighter power, stealth, and design. Gripen is just cheaper, that’s the only real positive. F-35 is 5th generational fighter vs 4.5 Gen Gripen.
But of course you’re another brainwashed elbows up retard that somehow wants to “stick it” to Americans by supporting Gripen while you post this message on American owned media “reddit”. Real nice double standards there bud
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u/IPoopedInALakeOnce 3d ago
Um acshullyy reddit is chinese
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u/Infinite_Ratio5208 3d ago
😂😂😂
founded in sfo in 2005 served everywhere but china and North korea.
retarded liberal
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u/ShortHandz 3d ago edited 3d ago
Ya it's is a better fighter in every way except a wildly higher CPFH, a far shorter ferry/combat radius and the Gripen can land on and operate from a significantly wider variety of airfields...
You know all things pretty critical for patrolling and maintaining the sovereignty of the second largest nation by land mass on earth.
Mixed fleet is the way to go. We can figure out the costs and logistics.(Seeing as Saab has promised domestic manufacturing under license) More jobs for Canadians along with the f35 ones.
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u/Development_Material 4d ago
It's not just pilots and training.. adopting the F35 is a decade long project starting with solving problems like building entire hangers around the necessary equipment to service and maintain the F35.
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u/danielbot 3d ago
Miltary guys like to be told what to do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in the military. So we are telling them we are getting Gripens, and they will like them. They will suck it up and do their job. Happily even, once they get their butts set down in those sexy little birds.
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u/endlessedlne 3d ago
Every single country with an all F35 fleet has suffered issues with maintenance costs and parts availability leading to availability rates so low that pilots can’t get enough hours.
A mixed fleet isn’t without precedent in RCAF history. The RCAF was actually mixed fleet up until the CF188.
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 4d ago
Just a reminder to everyone that the American Federal Administration under President Trump has repeatedly threatened our sovereignty and trade in an unprovoked trade war.
War with the US might be incredibly unlikely, but 10 years ago it was incredibly unlikely that the President of the USA would threaten our sovereignty, yet here we are.
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u/Mushroom_Boogaloo 4d ago
“I have Lockheed-Martin credentials-“
Sure, buddy. 🤣
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u/gravtix 4d ago
If he was really in the know he would have mentioned that the USGov is considering tariffs on foreign made airplane parts due to “national security concerns” and even Lockheed Martin came out and said in the past that they can’t guarantee F-35 parts made outside the USA won’t be subject to tariffs in the future.
Given what’s been happening I doubt we will be making parts for the F-35 in the future and our government has surely considered the scenario that we will get rug pulled.
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u/noshparty 4d ago
He's here to sway public opinion in favour of this deal, so I'd imagine that information wasn't in his information to share lol
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u/CanadianBaconBurger9 4d ago
Cool! now talk to me about engine performance below -45C!
Oh, wait, the F35 doesn't HAVE engines that perform below -45C.
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u/Rookie_52 2d ago
The F-35 does, you ever heard of this place just west of Yukon with USAF airbases called "Alaska"?
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u/EquivalentQuery 4d ago edited 3d ago
This post and the quote you included just reads as OP getting a smackdown from someone who actually knew about the subject matter being discussed. Then getting upset they got put in their place so they go running to try and post some negative angle on the interaction. The guy clearly deleted his account because it's not worth risking classified clearance to win an argument with a random mouth-breather on reddit.
Honestly OP, I'm very surprised you posted this.
Edit: Looks like the account wasn't even deleted, they just blocked OP. OP you're a clown.
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u/1141LLHH11 3d ago
You think OP got “put in his place” because some Lockheed sales rep had a meltdown?
“Wartime with America” would never happen? Oh really? You are discounting an insurrection, 2 impeachments, a trade war, kidnapping a foreign leader and starting a new war in the Middle East to name a few. All shit MAGA said would never happen.
Trump won’t even provide rights for Ukraine to build interceptors! Interceptors developed with R&D from taxpayer money. Interceptors they need to protect themselves!!
Why would Canada ever signup to be exploited in this way by buying F35’s? Just for Trump to shit his pants and cry and not deliver?
Fuck no.
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u/EquivalentQuery 3d ago
Low tier bait
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u/1141LLHH11 3d ago
Haha what are you another Lockheed rep?
Please tell me why Canada should trust a convicted sex offender who is actively trying to destroy our economy? After he nuked his last “incredible trade deal” “CUSMA” which itself destoyed the previous “NAFTA?”
Tell me, what Tarrifs are applied to an F35 deal? 50%? 100%? LOL nobody knows!!!! Whatever diaper pants decides TOMORROW.
You can’t even deny it!
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u/roguemenace 4d ago
They're not a Lockheed rep. Also they didn't delete their account.
Just because someone says something you don't like doesn't mean they're a malicious actor.
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u/NobleA259 4d ago
I mean he isn’t wrong. The earth is more likely to be hit by a meteor the size that wiped out the dinosaurs than war with America and too many of us jerk ourselves off almost wanting to fight the Americans. It’s seriously bizarre. And the F35 is so much superior to the gripen.
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u/Bent8484 4d ago
The F-35 basically runs on money. It costs an order of magnitude more per flight hour.
Do we really need cutting edge fighter jets? Why? If the US is so unlikely to attack us, then why do we need to match the US' capabilities?
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u/9999AWC 1d ago
Yes, we do, because we still need to defend ourselves, we have obligations to NORAD and NATO, and we need to keep up with the needs of today and tomorrow. Believe it or not we are NOT a purely defensive military; we deploy overseas, do operations with partner nations, and we do see combat. Canada already has a very small military proportionally to its population and size compared to most NATO nations and our adversaries.
We also don't know what kind of wars or who our adversaries will be tomorrow, so we cannot base our military procurement on the absolute minimum and based on the past. When we ordered our Hornets we didn't know the USSR would collapse, that we'd be doing bombing runs in the Balkans, that we'd spend 2 decades in Afghanistan, etc.
We're not trying to match the US' capabilities; that's literally impossible for us to do, nor is it what we're trying to achieve.
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u/Kalsone 4d ago
The Fed's have promotional brochures showing parts of the F-35 manufactured in Canada and critical minerals Canada provides for other parts.
We're pretty tied in to that weapons system.
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u/PostApocRock 4d ago
We are. But we are also cheaper and closer to buy diesel off and they are still choosing to buy Russian.
Remember, we are the global bad guys now. Nasty, nasty Canadians.
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u/lostedeneloi 4d ago
The amount they bought from Russia is like one days worth.
It was more about trying to spin a narrative that Russia is helping with diesel priced and Ukraine is hurting it.
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u/PostApocRock 4d ago
Wasn't it also very overpriced?
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u/NotawoodpeckerOwner 4d ago
Fair market value I think, but l it's super hard to figure out, supposedly it's arriving way faster than it should have if this deal wasn't in the works for weeks. Also it should be at a steep discount but it's not. Lastly, the funds will probably be used to buy weapons from Iran with USD so it's propping both Russia and Iran up.
We live in a super weird timeline and the media is all over the place. It's hard to tell whats real now especially with all the wild and insane things Trump and Co. do.
You could tell me he's planning to bomb a kitten orphanage because it made fun of him by naming it's ugly fat orange cat "Trump" and I wouldn't discredit it until I dug further.
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u/okiedokie2468 4d ago
Cut our losses now! We are at a turning point in our history let’s not get cold feet and wimp out.
Partner with SAAB and opt for the Gripen E
A mixed fleet is the ideal choice for a northern national.
Probably should have said a northern sovereign nation!1
u/EirHc 4d ago
I like the idea of a mixed fleet.
The main area where the Gripen E lacks is if we got into full-scale war with another advanced nation (USA, China, maybe Russia). But for the majority of missions a Canadian fighter jet would be involved in, it's totally capable. Additionally, as a mixed fleet receiving intel from F35s within our fleet, it would still be capable in full-scale war as adding to our muscle, while not necessarily being as strong with stealth and it's technology.
That said, I think where making the shift pays the most dividends is re-establishing our military aviation industrial sector.
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u/Immediate-Hearing-85 4d ago
It's highly unlikely that rUSsia and Canada would be at war. It's more likely that conflicting world view would result in us owning F35 paperweights. For example; we won't sanction the ICC or we refuse to invade Iran. The question becomes what leverage does the US have to force that choice now? What leverage do they seek? Is it prudent to give them control over the RCAF fleet? In my mind Canada's ambitions for the future align more closely with Europe and at this point we can't make any reliable contracts with rUSssia.
This is a very unique junction in world history and we owe it to future generations to make the right choice. Remember that Canada could sell F35's to another country operating them.
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u/Cold-Collection-6869 3d ago
The F-35 is superior to the Gripen in many ways, but the Gripen does not make us beholden to or vulnerable to the whims of a dying empire for whom 'annex Canada' is now and will forever be a drum to be beaten by their shittier politicians, who three or four out of every ten Americans still support
Every day the Enshittening inches closer and the 'Nothing Ever Happens' crowd insist that it was only a half centimetre, the Enshittening is never going to occur
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u/Objective-Muffin5710 2d ago
We need to be pragmatic, our CF18s don't have the airframe time left for us to spin up entirely different aircraft parts for the gripen. Go with the F35, and go all in on GCAP for the next generation of fighter because by the looksof things the F47 isn't going to be exported like the F22 and maybe even die in the cradle.
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u/No_Development7388 4d ago
Whatever, dude. Elections have consequences.
It's not about a potential war. It's about assholes on a crime spree. We don't have to support that.
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u/SilvertonguedDvl 4d ago
I mean the actual problem with Canada not buying the F-35s would be that our country already signed a contract that, if we break, will end up costing us more than just buying the F-35s. Like, a lot more.
So either we mess up our industry, spend years switching over to Gripen, have to train on a new system and also give the US a ridiculous amount of money... or we just stick with the F-35s and accept that we got into a long term contract with a country that has abruptly become far less reliable and stable in recent years that we can't really get out of.
As much as I hate it, we're stuck with the F-35s. They don't need to spout propaganda or anything; the government basically has no choice. The downsides are immense and the upsides are basically zero.
Best we can do is plan for other parts of our militaries to be more reliant on non-US partners so that even if part of our air force is reliant on the F-35s (which, honestly, isn't the worst outcome as it's a pretty great jet overall) we still have alternatives to fall back on that the US can't interfere with as easily.
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u/Not_Legal_Advice_Pod 4d ago
This is a bit like trying to decide between buying a Tesla and a Ford. The Tesla is better without question, but Elon is a raging maniac who uses the money he makes from Tesla to make the world a worse place, and he is so unpredictable that you really don't know what he will do in a year or two or ten. Thus the Ford looks tempting in comparison and there really is something to think about in what ought to be a very simple decision.
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u/Lucky-Mia 4d ago
I feel like I ran into one of these in the comments earlier. F-35 is just not a good fit. It costs more per flight hour and has less flight hours until maintenance is required. The Gripen is just a much better fit. The runways don't need to be as sophisticated or as long for Gripen either. Costing less to maintain. It operates better in our north then the F35 too.
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u/Responsible-Summer-4 4d ago
The Saab Gripen is what Canada needs. The F35 is an attack war plane from a unreliable country.
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u/Kdawg5506 4d ago
I have no skin in the game but fundamentally disagree. The Gripen isn't even a 5th gen aircraft. Some of our adversaries are already using 5th gen. We also already bought 16 of them. We'll create a logistical nightmare trying to maintain both. Not to mention the synergies of NORAD and having one common platform
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u/iom2222 4d ago
At this point screw NORAD, that exists only to serve US interest.
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u/AstralCode714 4d ago
Gripen cant hang with Russian Su-57s in the artic due to their reduced radar signature. Gripen would struggle detecting them
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u/ononeryder 4d ago
An "attack war plane" lmao. Tell us you know nothing of aircraft without telling us.
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u/LoicPravaz 4d ago
So this “Hyper qualified” dude gets offended when a commoner questions his authority, but I’m quite certain that he was amongst the first ones to cry conspiracy when Covid hit…
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u/hutch_man0 4d ago
It's not really a competition on performance. F-35 is better in every way. Also remember these jets will be flying for 30+ y so flying a non-stealth Gripen in 2060 is a risk. F-35 is only a marginal risk on sovereignty in my opinion. Very low chance of US interference. The real issue is in cost, and closely related reliability. It's well known that F-35 has major operational cost issues 30-40k per hr. The US is trying to get them under control but Gripen at 15-25k per hr is significantly cheaper. This cost dominates over 30 y. Having a mixed fleet introduces significant cost also, which I don't have enough data on.
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u/Immediate-Hearing-85 4d ago
Believe me when I say stealth or not the fighters we operate today are irrelevant 30 years from now. Just look at the aircraft we had 30 years ago.
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u/BnZAwkward_Lab5858 4d ago
Trump has said he will pass a law that Canada will have to request all parts to repair the F35 and then the US will decide if Canada will get the parts.
So after the 18 planes we should tell the US to fuck off, and sell the planes to China and Russia
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u/ljlee256 4d ago edited 4d ago
There is a world in which this guy was full of shit and did not actually work for Lockheed Martin, but was saying that as a way of trying to end the argument but still winning it.
We also don't need to be at war with the US for them to weaponize our dependence on them, they've done it more than a dozen times in the last 2 years.
No, at the end of the day, I want jets that we can repair, maintain, and handle software related aspects at home.
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u/keilahmartin 4d ago
I'd like to nominate 'stay in your lane' for most irritating and obnoxious American-ism of today.
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u/MammothDiligent3665 4d ago
MMMM yes, we should totally buy more F35s now that China has access to the stealth components. lol
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u/ztunelover 4d ago
We have already paid for the F35. That alone ends the debate. Unless we can find secondary market buyers that want to buy them off us for around what we paid, a dual fleet is the worst possible option for the caf right now.
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u/ShanerThomas 4d ago
Does the F-35 have a tail pipe?
Does heat come out of it?
So what happens if you get behind it? Does anyone make a thing for that? What if the plane you're flying is faster than the F-35?
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u/Unicorn_Puppy 4d ago
For the tune of a few billion bucks I want way better customer service than what that guy is providing.
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u/Historical-Ride-6251 4d ago
I’ll be dead and in the grave b4 we get new fighters.
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u/bigred1978 2d ago
All Russia and China have to do is keep up the internet trolling and influence pedaling for a few more years to trick and discourage the Canadian population and politicians who are sensitive to the whims of constituents who know nothing about nothing but react emotionally to the slightest thing, real or imagined.
This will cause more of the "can being kicked down the road" and no actual action taken to do anything, which, will play into Russia's hand even better if they can break one or several NATO members from acquiring the F-35 and instead buy an end of life orphan aircraft (Gripen) that no one really wants and that they (the Russian military) can easily shoot down.
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u/Ashamed_Data430 4d ago
This is an ad for Gripen, right? We can use that incoming fleet of 16 F-35s to replace the Snowbirds.
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u/EmeraldBoar 4d ago edited 4d ago
I would like to point out the engines on gripen are american made. So if F-35 can be remotely disable. American could do the same thing with gripen engines.
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u/Bent8484 4d ago
Americans act like we have to buy it from them, like we have no choice and we should just take their overpriced F-35s and shut up. We should cancel the contract on that basis alone, fuck that douchebag attitude.
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u/bigred1978 3d ago
Americans act like we have to buy it from them,
We do, we're part of NORAD and are well integrated into NATO and work with all the other countries buying them as well.
like we have no choice and we should just take their overpriced F-35s and shut up
We should because we've dragge dour feet for too long due to having the Liberals in power for over a decade. All other options are either unworkable or would deliver far too late to be of any use and in most cases, once received will be obsolete. The F-35 is the ONLY choice that makes sense.
We should cancel the contract on that basis alone
That isn't happening, we're getting the full 88. There are no plans for anything else. You have to think about 5-10-20 years down the line here.
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u/musictechfan 4d ago
Didn't Trump already threaten to turn the f-35s off if he felt like it? Sounds like something to be avoided for Canada now and in the future.
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u/LTZheavy 3d ago
Well, even if he didn't, they control the supply chain; so whoever controls the supply chain controls the jets. It's just that simple. Canada needs to eventually invest in aircraft that have absolutely no US parts in it whatsoever.
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u/Severe_Air_4353 4d ago
Trump is quoted saying any jet Canada gets will not be like the high tech Americans.
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u/bigred1978 3d ago
Trump isn't very bright or technical. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
The planes we are getting are the latest version of the F-35 (block 4.2) with other upgrades coming along in years to come.
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u/Playingwithmywenis 4d ago
Not a smart move to get warfare equipment from fascists threatening your sovereignty. Gonna be a no from me.
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u/itsreallyanirishguy 3d ago
In a world where the gripen is an option, the nation that developed it is friendly and it will be built locally supporting jobs there's no reason to buy the f35. If the yanks were fascist authoritarians it'd be a different story, but since the gripen also have full interoperability with nato its no brainer. Fuck the f35. It's the wrong choice for Canada.
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u/Loapasoaf 3d ago
Fucking corrupt to be buying more fighters that rely on supply chains from the country that is continually threatening our sovereignty, while also acting like it's for our sovereignty. Idk how anyone falls for this Orwellian doublethink almost 2 years into Carney's term.
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u/OGDREADLORD666 3d ago
Calls someone out for using Gemini and then clearly uses it too based on how his post reads.
LLMs tend to think everyone throws "vibe" around like an 18 year old girl
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u/Squishy321 3d ago
There’s nothing in that post that isn’t known by anyone who’s mildly interested in these matters. There are very good, logical and reasonable reasons to buy F-35s, there’s some good reasons to buying Gripens, there’s even some good reasons to have a mix, to discount what is the most advanced fighter out there over what is realistically just rhetoric and political nonsense wouldn’t be smart
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u/rampancy 3d ago
This isn't directly relevant, but it's funny reading this after learning about how extremely sensitive F-35 parts just happened to basically land in China's lap. (Like the all-important weapons bay doors and canopy, which are vital to maintaining stealthiness and have apparently been very challenging for the Chinese to develop successfully.)
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u/ReviewOverall5307 3d ago
Gripen vs F-35 who cares! The answer is drones. Millions of them. For a fraction of the price.
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u/blue-jurple 3d ago edited 3d ago
They didn't delete their account, you were blocked. They are right, military relationship with the United States remains strong and entirely unchanged.
Over a century of strong partnership won't be destroyed by the internet theatrics of a geriatric old man.
Stop feeding yourself devisive propaganda
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u/ReverseMissionary 3d ago
The F35 is the best option for the RCAF and no amount of elbows up Saab bullshittery will convince me otherwise.
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u/PhotographVarious145 3d ago
Why should we not order more F35’s??? How about today’s news that the USA throttled back Ukraine’s use of Starshield? Is that not proof of the theory that the US does in fact have a “ kill switch “ of sorts in its systems. The yanks are purposely hindering the Ukrainians and they sure as hell would do it to us as well.
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u/FlugZug1 3d ago
"A Government Accountability Office report released this June made clear the F-35’s readiness woes are still an issue—just one in four U.S. jets were considered “fully mission capable,” or ready to carry out all their missions at any given time, in fiscal 2025. The Air Force’s full mission capability rate was highest of all U.S. services at 28.5 percent, while the Navy and Marine Corps’ F-35s ranged between 15.3 to 22 percent."
From https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-35-readiness-epic-fury-lockheed-pentagon-spare-parts/
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u/RiskyCapt 3d ago
People keep comparing the current versions of Gripen and F-35, I feel like that's not even half the picture. (unless we go straight to war with usa lol) It's not a secret that the F-35 is the better plane but look into the future versions/models coming. SaaB has some really interesting autonomous models coming out, and not to mention the economic boom this will create on so many sectors in Canada. Imagine 20 years from now, what kind of models SaaB and Canada will be making? I daresay, knowing our history, we may actually outdo ourselves (Avro, canadian nuclear subs) IF we stay on course. We may actually stick it to the shitty yanks in the coming years. The rupture will be painful, but man the future can be really bright here if this works.
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u/D0hB0yz 2d ago
F35 are great if you want hangars full of advanced fighters. The problem is they spend too much time in the hangar.
F35 needs 3 times as many maintenance hours as a Gripen for every hour in the air.
Lockheed Martin is begging us to use F35 because Canada has an excellent record of troubleshooting and increasing reliability of our fighters.
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u/AxeloftheMountrain 2d ago
Is there an actual opinion anywhere from a military pilot who has either flown both the Gripen and F35 , or has detailed knowledge of both ?
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u/blinkiewich 2d ago
Anecdotal and this was yeeeears ago but I talked to someone who was involved in the F-35 selection process at a low level and they said "It's a nice plane but we can't really afford it".
He couldn't get into details and I don't remember if the Gripen was a serious contender at that stage but I think the most memorable thing he said was that the F-35 is a Ferrari while Canada needs (and can afford) a Camry or F-150.
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u/Dry_Inspection_4583 2d ago
Huh? I'm missing something here.
What was the thread about? What is he trying to say, ie. What do you think he's trying to say?
Feel a bit lost, help me out please
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u/9999AWC 1d ago
The amount of copium and denial from people with no foot in the game is astounding... If y'all had a modicum of understanding on the subject, you'd see it is an absolute no brainer to go with the F-35. Additionally, anyone who is even remotely invested in this topic would know the Gripen is very much dependent on the US. IF you actually cared about independence from the US, you'd vouch for the Rafale instead (though it's not on the discussion table). IF you cared about actually getting a relevant, capable fighter system, you'd vouch for the F-35. IF you cared about Canadian jobs and economy, you'd vouch for the F-35 considering the hundreds of companies and thousands of jobs DIRECTLY involved in the program (we've been part of since 1997). The Gripen is just not the right choice by any metric for us, and the CAF has voiced that decision very clearly.
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u/waddle85 22h ago
You get a heck of a lot of cheap drones for C$27bn, and, from what we've seen in Iran and Ukraine, 16 expensive planes ain't that useful nowadays.
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u/Many-Ordinary-6432 1h ago
Gripen looks cool oke we'll have tuff as gripens as our defense fighter instead of ugly ahh f-35 or f-18's
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u/cdnav8r 4d ago edited 4d ago
Two things can be true.
That poster
wasis an assholeThe F35 is superior to the Gripen.
It's unfortunate that the country in control of the F35 has gone crazy. Otherwise this wouldn't even be a discussion.