r/changemyview • u/thesussinator • 1d ago

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Dating preferences generally shouldn't be condemned as discriminatory or fetishizing

I heard of a controversy some time ago on the Grindr dating app; many users' bios expressed strong racial dating preferences, demanding, for example, that "no Asians" message them. Grindr has subsequently been denounced as a cesspool of racism.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a racial dating preference, though! These kinds of preferences are very common. Some people only date white guys. Some people really like black guys. Some people find most races attractive, but one or two don't do it for them. What's the issue?

Of course, when preferences extend beyond dating, it becomes a problem. If your racial dating preferences lie downstream of broader value judgments about a given race, then you might be a little bit racist. And, of course, you shouldn't really have racial preferences in terms of, say, who you hire. For me personally, I do have some racial dating preferences, but they're 100% about how people look. Different races have different features, bone structures, etc, and different people arbitrarily find different looks attractive. No biggie.

A common concern with these kinds of dating preferences is the idea of fetishization. I think I more or less get that; if you're a black guy on Grindr, and every message you receive is going on about BBC this, BBC that, you might end up feeling like your racial identity is a) all that matters about you, and b) just something others want to use for their own pleasure.

I don't think the core of the issue there is about race, though. It's more about basic respect and not being an oversexual pervert with someone you've just met. I am a racial minority myself, and I really wouldn't mind someone getting off on my racial identity - if they were someone I was comfortable with and attracted to. Random people catcalling me and mentioning my race, on the other hand, would be uncomfortable. But catcalling is uncomfortable even without specific identity-based comments. Seeking relationships with, say, lots of black people because you find that type of person attractive is fine, as long as you treat them like people first.

In summary, I think that when it comes to dating, people are generally allowed to prefer what they prefer and dislike what they dislike. They're allowed to express these preferences privately and publicly as long as they remain respectful. We generally shouldn't ask people to change or repress their dating preferences to make other people feel more comfortable.

To change my view, highlight the potential harms of these kinds of preferences or their expression that I might've overlooked, either through a personal lens, or an objective, utilitarian lens.

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u/jman12234 19∆ 1d ago

not because they're racist, but just because they know themselves very well.

This is begging the question: why does race matter in dating preferences? You could say they don't like certain features, but the features we attribute to race are not limited to that race ever. They exist on a cline throughout all of humanity and can appear in basically any race. Even light skin appears across the board racially. So to make a hard rule about heterogenous traits within a racial group makes no sense. It only makes sense if someone has a preconceived notion about how certain races appear. It is one thing to say I generally don't date black people because of this trait generally associated with black people, but it's another thing to make a hard and fast rule about it. And another thing entire to put it forth publically. That betrays some bias against people racially -- and yes I think it's fairly racist under that lens.

I mean, imagine if you said exactly what you said, but about gender instead of race.

Men tend to have biological characteristics that are limited to men. The overwhelming most likely 99% majority of men do. Even men who may not have the same genitalia, when introduced to male hormones, tend to develop secondary sex characteristics that are associated with men. That being, deeper voices, stronger muscles, facial hair and thicker body hair, crosshatched skin, among other things. You are comparing a category much, much more closely tied to biology than race. It is not one-to-one still, but much closer to that than race is. The same just isn't true for race in the grand majority of cases.

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u/thesussinator 1d ago

deeper voices, stronger muscles, facial hair and thicker body hair, crosshatched skin, among other things

I think you're overestimating the sameness between men. Lots of men have higher voices, skinny bodies, clean shaven faces and/or bodies, super soft skin, etc.

You're using sameness to make distinctions between group preferences; gender preferences are okay because they have a lot of sameness, but racial preferences are not okay because there's less sameness.

I think it's EXTREMELY difficult to quantify this, though, and even harder to draw a line. Black people all look really different. They also have lots in common. Men all look really different. They also have lots in common. I think preferences between all these groups are fine.

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u/jman12234 19∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago

You're using sameness to make distinctions between group preferences; gender preferences are okay because they have a lot of sameness, but racial preferences are not okay because there's less sameness.

This is not my argument. My argument is that attraction is based, fundamentally, in biology. I am saying that gender is much more closely aligned with biological factors of attraction than race is, because race is so completely distended from biology. Therein, they are not comprobable metrics when talking about attraction. That argument, which you cut off in the middle I might add, was saying that even men who do not have the genitalia usually associated with men, do develop biological characteristics that factor into sexuality and attraction. You also did not respond to the first half of my argument.

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u/thesussinator 1d ago

I already awarded a delta for a similar point on sexuality, actually - I think you're right. And I actually think you're right about my overemphasis on similarity between a race's physical features, too, so !delta for that. Race is a social construct and doesn't really speak to physical appearance with 100% accuracy.

The one point I'll defend is that I still think it's okay to say something like "I'm not into x race." That's not setting a hard rule - that's implying, like you mentioned, a general preference.