This could be us, but

[u/vesmir_neasi]

I don’t need much. I want eat sweets without getting fat, I want to feel wanted and I want equal rights. Is it much to ask?

[u/Jijonbreaker1]

I've absolutely heard it before. The hardcore scum who think that it is their job to receive pleasure, not give it. Anything which puts any responsibility on them can't be allowed.

[u/Content-Sun2928 → u/Jijonbreaker1]

How do they even get women?

Who willingly puts up with this or can't sniff it out a mile away?

[u/Robertej92 → u/Content-Sun2928]

It's one of those things that's hard to answer without worrying that I'll get a whiff of manosphere on my post but a lot of women either a) see that kind of selfish chauvinistic behaviour as manly and are attracted to it or b) have deep seated self-esteem issues and think that's all they deserve

[u/NeonMutt → u/Robertej92]

I have seen a variation of this explanation. In situations where patriarchy is strong, women grow up learning the same toxic messages about manhood that the men do. I look at most women as wanting the same things as men, just in the opposite direction. Men want to be asocial belligerents who take without giving, and women want men who are asocial belligerents who take without giving.

Edit: it looks like I was accusing ALL women of wanting shitty husbands. I am not doing that. I am only referring to women who do. And there are those who do!

I do think most straight women do want whatever the inverse of what straight men want, and vice versa, but obviously the specifics depend on the person.

[u/Robertej92 → u/NeonMutt]

I think you're underestimating the extent to which nature plays a part, there are plenty of toxic traits that patriarchal society (I.e. basically every human culture, outside of a few small niches) reinforces but there is also an innate unconscious attraction to higher testosterone which comes with many of the traits that are seen as problematic by some, manly by others and a mixed bag by most. There is a large extent to which society has been built by natural selection selecting for these traits through millions of years of men carrying those traits being selected for.

[u/Prismatic_Leviathan → u/Robertej92]

Do you have a reference link for that? Women are attracted to men that are confident and vigorous, which is helped by testosterone, but angry and unstable men definitely aren't, both of which can also be caused by testosterone.

Like where's the science? Honestly asking where this information comes from.

[u/Robertej92 → u/Prismatic_Leviathan]

I'd first add anecdotally that angry and unstable men are often also confident and vigorous and attract women to relationships before their more negative traits can really show.

"Many studies have demonstrated cyclic variation in the strength of women's reported attraction to putative cues of men's underlying health (see Gangestad and Thornhill (2008) and Jones et al. (2008) for recent reviews). For example, women report stronger attraction to masculine characteristics in men's faces (Frost, 1994, Johnston et al., 2001, Penton-Voak et al., 1999, Penton-Voak and Perrett, 2000, Welling et al., 2007), voices (Feinberg et al., 2006, Puts, 2006), and bodies (Little et al., 2007) during the late follicular phase of the menstrual cycle than at other times. Women also rate the attractiveness of androstenone (a male pheromone, Grammer, 1993), videoclips of male behavioral displays of dominance (Gangestad et al., 2004), and the scent of symmetric men (Garver-Apgar et al., 2008, Thornhill and Gangestad, 1999, Thornhill et al., 2003) higher during the late follicular phase of the menstrual cycle than during other phases. Stronger attraction to these putative cues of men's underlying health during the late follicular (i.e., fertile) phase of the menstrual cycle may be adaptive because it is likely to increase offspring health (see Gangestad and Thornhill (2008) and Jones et al. (2008) for reviews)."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018506X08002298

[u/Prismatic_Leviathan → u/Robertej92]

Kind of an odd pick since it didn't have anything to about attraction to testosterone besides referencing other studies, but sure.

The study they referenced actually made note that women were generally only attracted to this behavior in a higher degree during a certain period in the menstrual cycle. It was more about how those hormones interact during high periods of both, testosterone in men and estrogen in women, so I personally wouldn't consider it strong enough scientific proof to make such a generalized statement.

I do still appreciate you providing the link and engaging me honestly.

[u/NeonMutt → u/Robertej92]

I absolutely agree that nature has a strong influence on humans. It is one reason why we can communicate so clearly with one another; we are mostly built the same. And I know that “gender essentialism” is an evil phrase, but I also think there is some truth behind it. But the other thing with humans is the incredible plasticity of our brains. We are so complex and flexible in our thinking, that we can be taught to do almost anything. Including things that completely contradict our nature. We can also be born with predilections that contradict our nature. Misogyny, for instance, is a cultural invention that actually harms people and degrades people’s ability to grow, adapt, and react to threats. Just like smoking cigarettes corrodes your health, misogyny corrodes the health of your society.

So we see the problem with trying to ascribe any behavior to instincts. Our brains can be trained into or out of almost anything. Maybe women do react to testosterone, but the degree to which is inflated by culture. Do some reading on “compulsory heterosexuality” to see what I mean. We also have the problem of our internal biases. Men love big muscles. So they try to get big muscles. They also assume that everyone else loves big muscles, because they assume they are just like everyone else. But women generally don’t care about big muscles. They like muscles, but the effect wears off, beyond a certain mass. So, we see women going nuts over lean, fit guys, and we assume that the bigger the beef, the more women will love it, without understanding how and why women love it.