r/comics • u/TommySiegel • 20d ago

OC Star Wars vs Star Trek: a helpful guide [OC]

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Star Trek 2009? Fun! The Force Awakens? Fun! And yet…

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u/HanzoKurosawa 20d ago

Abrams is overly blamed for what happened with the sequel trilogy. The issue was not him. The issue was them not pre-planning the trilogy, and making it up film to film. That's not any one directors fault, that's a bigger studio issue. But I guess it's easier to blame one director.

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u/Doomsayer189 20d ago

The sequel trilogy was severely hampered by TFA reverting everything to essentially the way it was in A New Hope, and that decision was largely due to Abrams.

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u/Derigiberble 20d ago

Supposedly he wanted to blow up Coruscant and they basically had to talk him into a consolation prize of blowing up an entire system of heavily inhabited worlds instead like parents frantically jangling keys to keep a toddler from having a meltdown because they can't burn the house down.

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u/dern_the_hermit 20d ago

I mean the OG wasn't really pre-planned, either. George had a pile of ideas but he's also been wildly inconsistent about what he "originally planned"... and he neither wrote nor directed the second or third film, anyway.

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u/Nythromere 20d ago

There is a difference between a starting a brand new fanchise vs a decades long established franchise. George Lucas had no idea how crazy successful it would become. And he did have lots of plans for it but he had to keep reshaping it because, again, it was a brand new franchise.

Once Episode 4 released, the plans got more solidified. Now compare that to Episode 9 where the original director was fired and JJ Abrams had to finish the last installment of a 9 part saga under a strict deadline. Reshoots were happening weeks from release.

The whole "the OT didn"t have a plan too" is coping for the shit stain that is the ST.

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u/total_idiot01 20d ago

Not just finish the last installment, but effectively restart the story after Johnson ended the trilogy in movie 2.

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u/Cornelius-Q 20d ago

Absolutely. George pretty much winged the Original Trilogy; nothing was locked down.

But the thing is, the more content you make in your universe, the more you lock down what it is. How the the technology works. The themes it deals with. The tone. The history.

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u/Nythromere 20d ago

There was no winging. Winging suggests that he made things up as they came up. That is furthest from the truth. George had tons of plans of what he wanted to include but he had to be selective in terms of the scope what he could fit in one movie.

Ofcourse his plans and vision changed overtime <- and that is what people confuse (intentionally or not) with some sort of lack of plan or "winging" it. The best feature one can have in planning is fexibility. Balancing his vision and constraints of the first movie and then piviting to a trilogy is a remarkable feat

No one had any idea how big it was going to be. If George knew what Star Wars would become, the OT would have been a lot different.

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u/dern_the_hermit 20d ago

When did George decide Luke was Leia's brother

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u/Cornelius-Q 20d ago

As Luke is leaving Dagobah for Cloud City in The Empire Strikes Back, Obi-Wan laments that Luke is their last hope against the Empire, and Yoda replies with "No, there is a another."

In the original plan, Luke would have had a hidden twin sister who would have been introduced in the Sequel Trilogy (Episode 8, to be exact).

This got scuppered when Lucas decided that Star Wars was the story of Anakin Skywalker and decided not to make the Sequel Trilogy. The arc involving Luke's sister then got transferred to Leia.

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u/buffysbangs 19d ago

When he was burnt out and decided not to proceed with a follow up trilogy. That’s not winging it.

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u/dern_the_hermit 19d ago

It's not "pre-planned" either, which would stand out as the salient bit of this conversation for those of us with healthy literacy skills.

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u/Nythromere 20d ago

The same time he thought it was best to change that small part for his vision/plan

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u/dern_the_hermit 20d ago

See, now THAT'S cope. Literally THE motivation for Luke defeating his father is reduced to "that small part".

He didn't have a coherent plan, sorry, and it's cope to glaze otherwise.

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u/Nythromere 20d ago

It is one detail in a trilogy. By all means it is small. You are grasping on anything because you didn't like that I pointed the obvious horrible comparison you made about the Sequel Trilogy lol

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u/dern_the_hermit 20d ago

It is one detail in a trilogy.

George was originally going to do a whole other trilogy for it, that's what his vaunted "pre-planning" is worth.

Keep copin' tho

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u/buffysbangs 19d ago

There is no shortage of research done regarding the history of the development of Star Wars. It was extensive. It was not a case of “winging it”.

Over time, things change. Plans, circumstances, etc… They didn’t even know if Ford would return for RotJ. Similarly, the Leia as sister plotline had to be introduced when Lucas decided to not have a follow up trilogy because he was burnt out.

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u/Horror_Bob 19d ago

In fairness the prequel trilogy was a shit stain also. JJ hardly ruined an already ruined film series. The extended lore and expanded universe was the saving grace up until the Disney acquisition, not that they helped matters.

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u/Nythromere 19d ago

Nah. The PT while heavily flawed, had excellent world building and story

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u/Horror_Bob 19d ago

It's a movie, not a concept. It needs good dialogue, good pacing and good execution. It had none. Sure the world building was nice. But who gives a shit? Go read Wikipedia at that point.

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u/Nythromere 19d ago

It isn't just a movie. It is a saga. Worldbuilding is key. It builds longevity

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u/Horror_Bob 19d ago

You don't get to excuse shitty films just because they're in a series.

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u/Nythromere 19d ago

Good films. And no excuse need for them

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u/robsteezy 20d ago

Yes but he gets the grace of being the literal creator/lead.

If the restaurant kitchen is a mad house, wouldn’t you at least want the head chef back there juggling, improvising, putting out fires? Abrams is like the bartender decided to manage the kitchen just because they can make a mean strawberry daiquiri. You get my point?

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u/boringestnickname 20d ago

The difference is that someone fought to make the films at the same time as being invested in some pretty specific ideas about the story.

A studio just ordering three films and throwing more or less random people into the mix with no plan whatsoever is a god damn strange way of going about it. Especially with giving the first mission to someone like Abrams, a person famously poor at having fully fledged ideas.

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u/tristeecfome 20d ago

Sure, but it all came from the vision of one person.

Completely different from different directors doing whatever the hell they want.

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u/BardicLasher 20d ago

But it wasn't planned to be a trilogy, either.

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u/_Fun_Employed_ 20d ago

No, he really isn’t overly blamed, he literally can’t be blamed enough, because the REAL issues with the sequel trilogy all stem from him and The Force Awakens. He made a self referential sequel, with no imagination at all and nostaliga bait tripe.

And a coincidentally a bit of your screen name is an example of the Abrams failure. You see, he began the sequel trilogy by remaking a New Hope, all his inspiration clearly and creatively bankruptly from it. Who’s the Antagonist? The new empire and a new vader. What’s the big threat? Basically another even bigger death star. But what inspired the original Star Wars movies? Spaghetti Westerns, Flash Gordon, and Akira Kurosawa. But instead of basing his movies off of Star Wars original inspirations(like the first season of the Mandolorian does excellently), or even using new inspiration (like Andor did) he bases the new movies on the old ones…and you know what? It could have been done well, the question of intergenerational trauma, and legacy and how the past informs the future…it could have been done well, if it hadn’t been as shallow as possible and just a stupid nostalgia grab.

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u/AaronRedwoods 20d ago

Fucking preach.

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u/juniperleafes 20d ago

It could have been done well, the question of intergenerational trauma, and legacy and how the past informs the future…it could have been done well, if it hadn’t been as shallow as possible and just a stupid nostalgia grab.

That doesn't happen in the first movie of a trilogy though.

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u/_Fun_Employed_ 19d ago

It absolutely does or should in this case because it’s already a sequel trilogy, You need to establish the foundation for a good series in the first one. not having a good strong foundation means you can’t build on it. TFA’s foundation was weak.

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u/bluetenthousand 20d ago

JJ is entirely to blame. Though the studio deserves some blame too. JJ started a bunch of story threads that don’t have a good way to conclude. Plus the whole premise was a recycled Star Wars story, the empire is back but it’s just called the New Order lame trash.

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u/Cornelius-Q 20d ago

And that is what's baffling to me. Abrams is (allegedly) a fan of Star Wars.

Being a fan myself, if I had the chance to make the Sequel Trilogy, the last thing I would have done is just do a straight-up remake of the Original Trilogy. I'm not going to have a third Death Star. I'm going to have a functioning New Republic and New Jedi Order. I'm going to make the final chapter of the Star Wars Saga, not just recycle a bunch of stuff from the movies I grew up with.

Though we may be laying too much blame at the feet of Abrams. Maybe that is what Disney/Lucasfilm/Kennedy wanted? TFA was pretty much the same thing as Abrams' 2009 Star Trek -- take all of the toys out of the toybox and start over from scratch.

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u/Lost_Ad_4882 20d ago

I thought JJ's weird story threads were fine. It was when Rian decided to deliberately end every single one and make a self hating political satire that the last trilogy really got ruined.

The studio could have avoided this by having an actual story for the trilogy though instead of just winging it. I'll put Kennedy up for that issue.

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u/Hobbledyhook 20d ago

I mean, only one of the sequels is kind of an interesting movie, and it's not either of the ones JJ wrote.

Rian's changes still actually make sense in the context of TFA. It's a switch-up, and one not everyone will like, but plenty of fans (and especially critics) did, in fact, like it, because it was some form of logical progression.

What makes zero sense, is TROS in the context of TLJ.

Sure it was push and pull, but there was only one movie that 'ruined' the trilogy, and it was the last one. It's both the worst movie in the trilogy in-and-of itself (by a long way), and it's also the one that makes the least sense within the context of the trilogy as a whole.

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u/schrodingers_bra 20d ago

Rian at least tried to take the story to an interesting place. The Force Awakens was pretty much a shot for shot remake of A New Hope.

Not all of Rian's ideas were great, but JJ's biggest mistake was not trying to take any of Rian's threads to a conclusion and erasing and writing over all of them - the result was a mess.

The largest example was retconning Rey's parentage and Snoke's death. Rey's parents being "no one" was significant to the entire theme of the story - i.e. that the force was awakening, and the skywalker story was at an end to be replaced with new force users - instead of her being a Palpatine and renaming herself skywalker for funsies.

And Snoke's death was the set up for Kylo to become the new big bad and maybe have a redemption arc (or not) but because he was too scared to have Kylo actually become a bad guy, he just ended up useless.

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u/Lost_Ad_4882 20d ago

I hard disagree. I'm fine with 7 mostly being a remake of 4 as a way to reboot the series. There were plenty of ideas in 7 to lead to new ideas in the last two movies. Instead of using any of those to go in a new directional Rian intentionally cut them short and introduced completely new ideas while not be faithful to the normal flow of how a movie should he written. I'm sure a lot of film class professors had a field day ridiculing Rian for that movie.

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u/schrodingers_bra 20d ago edited 20d ago

There were no new ideas in 7. They didn't even have any new planet ideas. Plot was plans/information + droids + desert planet and young force sensitive + side kick + hot shot pilot + old mentor team up to fight evil empire with a planet sized thing that can blow up planets. Along the way there are some battles and a whimsical bar scene. Hero gets legendary lightsaber from mentor figure to inspire them. Hero ends up on big-planet-weapon and gets in danger. Mentor gets killed distracting the enemy. Heroes blow up the weapon, plans/info gets to the people who needed it.

The people who occupy those character slots move around a bit. But its the exact same plot.

The only new ideas weren't taken anywhere - Maz? no idea. The mystery of Rey's parents? eventually ruined by JJ. Who were the first order? never explained.

Even the Star Trek 2009 reboot wasn't as egregious as this.

I maintain that if the third movie hadn't attempted to erase the second, the second would be better regarded. The second had some of the best and worst moments of the trilogy. But the first committed the crime of being boring, which I view, for Star Wars, more unforgivable than taking some risks that didn't work out.

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u/sw04ca 20d ago

The one really interesting idea that they had was 'maybe the Jedi were wrong about some things.'

The whole 'new force users showing up' thing is kind of negated by the fact that Luke had students and the Knights of Ren existed.

Rey's parentage wasn't as important a point as everyone seemed to think it was. It's like wondering about who Han Solo's parents were. It just doesn't carry much story, especially since she moves on from her motivation of finding out about herself pretty quickly.

Even killing Snoke and replacing him with Kylo isn't really all that big a deal, since Kylo has really occupied the narrative place of the villain for the entire first two movies. He betrayed and murdered Han Solo. We didn't need convincing to think he was a bad guy.

The hackneyed 'weapons manufacturers are bad' thing that Rian shoehorned in was ridiculously inappropriate.

Poe's 'Just shut up and follow orders' thing was kind of crap too.

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u/schrodingers_bra 20d ago edited 20d ago

I disagree with most of this.

The Jedi were wrong about somethings I think had already been explored in the prequels.

Rey's parentage was important thematically to the story of the trilogy. The story had been focused up until now on the Skywalker bloodline which "generated" itself from the force (as the fulfillment of a prophecy/sith actions or both). The last Skywalker force users are either in hiding after failing (Luke) or failing to live up to their potential (Kylo) after turning. It is showing the the final degeneration of that bloodline.

In comes a new force sensitive hero who can apparently manipulate the force without training or knowing anything about the force. Who her parents are is significant. If they are no one special, it implies that the force itself is filling a vacuum (i.e. awakening). If she just the next in an already force sensitive line, it cheapens the story.

>Kylo has really occupied the narrative place of the villain 

But he wasn't a good villain and so the story was lacking. He was too bratty, angsty and conflicted. It suited his character in the first movie, but he never really grew beyond it and the death of Snoke left a vacuum that really needed to be filled with someone - if not Kylo, then someone else. Weak or soft villains make weak stories. But I think they could have used his killing of Han to make him apparently irredeemable. But they didn't.

>The hackneyed 'weapons manufacturers are bad' thing that Rian shoehorned in was ridiculously inappropriate.

It wasn't inappropriate. It was interesting, they just didn't go anywhere with it in the third movie. The original trilogy kind of touched on the 'neutral' side (i.e. the people that just want to be left alone) with the character of Lando - someone who betrays former 'friends' mainly to get the empire to leave them alone, and eventually sides with the heroes when under threat.

Bringing up the people that play both sides for profit was an interesting introduction that could have been used by the heroes as a strategy later. (Like maybe all these weapons manufacturers could be the source of the huge fleet that shows up in the third movie). But no one took it anywhere.

>Poe's 'Just shut up and follow orders' thing was kind of crap too.

Agree, this was stupid.

The weakest parts of the 2nd movie were the B-plot where the three side characters do nothing but screw things up. The other weak point was the reveal of what happened with Luke and Kylo causing Kylo to leave. Like Game of Thrones, the characters and plot ended up where it needed to be, but the way it got there was garbage.

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u/sw04ca 19d ago

They didn't explore the Jedi being wrong in the prequels. The Jedi were fundamentally correct, but they were tricked and betrayed. The Jedi were continuously held up as the 'right way' to do things.

Rey's actual parentage faded out of the movie when she found a surrogate father in Han Solo. Each movie tried to take a poke at it, but it was always a bit of an also-ran in terms of Rey's motivations and desires. Rey's parentage also doesn't really matter in terms of the Force. While Anakin, Luke and Leia are related, we have examples of all kinds of Jedi who aren't related to each other, from all kinds of different species. There doesn't have to be anything deeper to her Force sensitivity.

Snoke was a non-entity in the first film and a caricature in the second, an Temu version of the Emperor. The second film didn't do anything interesting with Kylo, and in fact leaned into the things that made him a worse character, because Rian Johnson couldn't resist going for 'the funny'.

The arms storyline was incredibly inappropriate. 'Oh yeah, you're two sides of the same coin because you're both using weapons!' is the kind of thing that even a child knows is a stupid argument. One of the sides are a pack of space fascists that blows up inhabited planets and whose entire visual language is 'EVIL!'. The other is the democratic space government. It's the sort of trendy faux-intellectualism that Johnson loves, and it can work well in the right circumstance. But the people leading the one side are from the Dark Side.

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u/Ex_honor 20d ago

Name one story thread that Rian Johnson 'ended'

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u/Cornelius-Q 20d ago
  1. Unceremoniously killed off the main villain (Snoke).
  2. Unceremoniously killed off the secondary villain (Phasma).
  3. Made us stop wondering how Rey got ahold of Luke's old lightsabre.
  4. Torpedoed the "Who is Rey?" question.
  5. Destroyed any chance that Finn might be a viable or interesting character.
  6. By finishing off the Resistance, we stopped asking what the deal with the Resistance and New Republic was.

The claim that Johnson somehow logically ended Abrams' dangling plot threads while Abrams just dumped Johnson's is a strange take. The whole Sequel Trilogy is a just a hot mess that feels like freshmen students in a creative writing class doing an exquisite corpse exercise.

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u/Ex_honor 19d ago
  1. Killing off one character to further another's story is by definition not ending a plot thread.
  2. Phasma didn't have a story thread in TFA. She was just window dressing.
  3. That's not a story thread JJ actually set up, just another of his stupid mystery boxes.
  4. It didn't "torpedo" that, it actually gave us an answer to the question. Pretty bad faith to complain that Rian chose to not answer a certain question while also complaining when he did answer a certain question. Just because you didn't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't a continuation of a story thread.
  5. JJ already accomplished that in TFA. Also, this isn't a story thead that was dropped, just your personal opinion again
  6. Are you actually serious here? The New Republic got destroyed in TFA.

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u/DMMeThiccBiButts 19d ago

Killing off one character to further another's story is by definition not ending a plot thread.

..yes it is?

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u/Ex_honor 19d ago

Snoke's role in the story became being a stepping stone for Kylo Ren. You can disagree with the choice, but it's a continuation of the story.

If you're annoyed that he wasn't given any lore or backstory, that's on TFA's and JJ's mystery box approach, and his lore was not relevant to the story TLJ told, so it's logical that it wasn't shown.

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u/DMMeThiccBiButts 19d ago

but it's a continuation of the story.

But it's not a continuation of HIS story. It is, definitionally, ending his plot thread. I'm not making a value judgement on whether it was good or bad storytelling, but you can't argue it's 'not ending a plot thread'.

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u/Ex_honor 18d ago edited 18d ago

Snoke didn't even have an actual plot thread in TFA though. The actual plot thread was about Kylo Ren and Snoke was only relevant for what he did to corrupt Ben Solo, beyond that he didn't serve a role.

That's the big frustration with JJ's mystery box bullshit and why it annoys the hell out of me when people blame Rian for shit JJ was responsible for.

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u/AaronRedwoods 20d ago

Oh yeah and yet - another - Death Star.

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u/_Middlefinger_ 20d ago

No because The Force Awakens was also god awful.

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u/_Fun_Employed_ 20d ago

It really is the root of all the problems of the sequel trilogy.

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u/MagentaHawk 20d ago

It was the only movie where I actually scoffed out loud. I had to catch myself because I didn't realize I had and didn't want to be a dick, but another death star? Really? It was so bad I didn't watch anything Star Wars until Andor.

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u/beatrailblazer 20d ago

the studio and JJ Abrams are equally to blame. I'd argue JJ did more harm but either way both deserve significant blame

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u/icantsurf 20d ago

100%. TFA was completely serviceable to start a new trilogy. The problem was Rian Johnson decided to subvert expectations until there was no thread of a story left.

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u/_Fun_Employed_ 20d ago

No, TFA was a non starter, choking the series in shallow self referential nostalgia.

If you wanted the Star Wars Sequel series to be really good to try and reach anywhere near the original trilogy, it needed a better start, Rian tried to course correct to give it its own voice, and some of his decisions are genuinely great, but he also had a lot of misses.

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u/icantsurf 20d ago

What were the great choices? What paths were available after he left movie 3 in essentially the same position as movie 2 sans a big bad? He killed the main bad guy with 1 movie left to go and left us with Kylo Ren who was just kind of pathetic as seen in the first movie. Johnson had a chance to actually do something interesting with Rey and Kylo Ren doing something together for instance, but instead he subverted expectations until they subverted so hard they were back to normal. Was it the furry animals running through the space casino that was the great choice?

I understand not liking TFA because it's essentially a rehash of ANH, but saying it was a non-starter is ridiculous. The series had a chance before Rian Johnson's smug ass took a steaming pile of shit all over it. Johnson left nowhere to go with the trilogy. I don't care if TLJ was citizen kane, it doesn't do it's job if it doesn't service the trilogy.

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u/_Fun_Employed_ 20d ago

Snoke was just a prop, no meaningful buildup or character establishment in the first movie. Kylo Ren should have been the main Villain and could have been great, it’s like if Vader had carried through with what he offered Luke, to kill the emperor and rule the galaxy together, well Kylo kills Snoke and makes the offer to Rey who still rejects it, because it’s evil, narcissistic madness.

Kylo as the main villain in 9 would have been so much better than Palpatine returning. He’s killed his father, he’s party to destroying a star system, he’s a monster and perfect stand in for the kind of monsters our world makes.

Additionally, Rey coming from nowhere, is meaningful, the idea that you don’t have to have the blood of bloody kings to change the world and do great things is aspirational, and Johnson already setup a follow through for it that Abrams could have used in child who uses the force. Not literally by following up with the child but by following up with the Resistance reaching out to people like that, the nobodies that the galaxy passed over.

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u/icantsurf 20d ago

None of those point to TFA being a non-starter, they're mostly complaints about TRoS decisions, some of which were forced by TLJ's awful handling of the trilogy. Kylo as the villain would be laughable because he's not scary, he is embarrassing. He's not some evil, omnipotent power how Vader felt, he's a young, emotional hot head who got fucked up in the first movie. TLJ could have setup up an avenue for a semblance of his redemption but of course Johnson's smug ass took a shit all over that. Johnson left the 3rd movie without a bad guy so they panicked and brought back Palpy.

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u/_Fun_Employed_ 20d ago

Those were my arguments for good decisions Rian made for TLJ, not my arguments for TFA being a non starter.

My arguments for TFA being a non starter is that it is 1. It is A New Hope rehashed, where do you go after that? You either follow it up with “The Empire Strikes Back rehashed”, or “*not* The Empire Strikes Back”. The issue there is a lot of people hold up The Empire Strikes Back as the best Star Wars movie. So you already had a not as good New Hope, do you think your trilogy will have staying power/cultural relevance if the sequel is “not as good The Empire Strikes Back”? Okay, let’s say you instead go with a more original sequel, but now you’ll just have people saying you should have done “The Empire Strikes Back rehashed”instead, unless it managed to being so ground breaking that it somehow surpasses The Empire Strikes Back, which is maybe possible…but probably not because of the baggage The Force Awakens saddles you with, leading to my second argument.

Argument number 2 about why TFA sucks and is a nonstarter for a sequel trilogy is the mystery box bullshit JJ Abrams the hack that he is added Mystery Box bullshit to my Star Wars. Mystery Box writing is JJ Abrams terrible style of writing where he poses these big mysteries and instead of answering them in satisfying ways leaves season/episodes ending on cliffhangers to keep people watching. The answers are rarely satisfying but he always strings one mystery after another. The Original trilogy and prequel trilogy didn’t need this. I find the mystery box antithetical to Star Wars (not to mention good writing in General). The mystery box shit he added to TFA is where and why Luke left, Rey’s parentage, and who/what Snoke is, and by stretching them out past one movie it gets to the point where probably wouldn’t/couldn’t have had satisfying answers. Like, what if Rey was Obi-Wan’s grand daughter? That was a common theory, I’d heard. Does that then warp the Star Wars trilogy about the real destined line having been Obi-Wan’s the whole time? Is that good? Interesting? Does it satisfy fans? Some maybe, it would probably confuse more who don’t know about his love affair with the Satine the Duchess of Mandalore. Or how did fans like her being a Palpatine? Palpatine suddenly having a a family that never came up in the original trilogy or prequel trilogy. What about Luke? What would be a good reason for him essentially abandoning the galaxy like that? Honestly, I like Rian’s humanizing look at a man broken by a mistake he couldn’t take back. I went through something like that at the time of the movie and I really felt it. And Snoke? No. You don’t stretch mysteries across movies, and you definitely don’t leave them for other authors to have to fill in. It’s just shitty and lazy and tripe.

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u/daniel_22sss 20d ago

No, he's not overly blamed. He was the one who just reset EVERYTHING from original trilogy and returned the story back to "rebels vs empire". As much as I hate Rian Johnson, he could only work in horrible restrictive conditions that Abrams gave him, he couldn't change the course too much.

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u/stormdressed 20d ago

Its like those two directors hated each other and their ideas. They were determined to kill off each others plotlines and make their own.

A truly terrible trilogy indeed

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u/Randemm 20d ago

Abrams is getting the blame he deserves. The man is good at only one thing: setting up a premise and plot threads.

But he can't follow up on it. He is really bad at that and at concluding the plot threads he teases in the movie or series' start. Any good series he's ever been involved in, he's been around for the start and left the follow up and ending for more competent directors (eg. Fringe).

He spends a lot of time and energy on his beloved "mystery boxes". According to himself, they are empty, but the audience fills them with their imagination. Which is a really pretentious way of saying that he writes mysteries and plots without planning the content or their conclusions. Which leads back to my previous point: he is bad, really bad at delivering on the plot threads he introduces in a given project's beginning.

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u/Kelly_HRperson 20d ago

The issues began with the first sequel. No amount of planning could save what they did to Luke

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u/_Fun_Employed_ 20d ago

I mean, they made Luke Yoda. He does exactly what Yoda did. I feel like people always miss that.

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u/[deleted] 20d ago

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u/fine_marten 20d ago

Yoda was also fleeing as a failure. His arrogance and inflexibility, and that of the Jedi as a whole, resulted in the Jedi being played over and over, in losing Anakin to the Sith, and eventually the loss of the entire Republic.

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u/MagentaHawk 20d ago

You can blame multiple things. It's not like there is a limited amount. I still think the idea that Disney paid a Billion for something they didn't even plan for is so insane that it should have caused some break in the minds of everyone. They spent a billion and didn't think to do the level of planning I had to do for a middle school essay. What the everloving fuck?

That doesn't stop me from also saying JJ's mystery box bullshit is a horrible thing, especially when he sets up the problems for other people to deal with.